How could Lumo expand/develop/improve?

[Energy]

It was just a suggestion that an overnight service  may be viable or a worthwhile expansion.

It isn't an unreasonable suggestion, DB run some regular services at night in Germany and they tend to be fairly popular with interrail users.

A direct link to Scotland at say 2330 on a Friday or Saturday night would probably be fairly popular

I'd have it leave a little later - maybe 0030 and timetable it to arrive in Edinburgh at 0700. Same in the other direction.

London - Scotland on a coach takes about 9 hours, alright for an overnight coach to arrive at around 7:30 am the next day. The train takes around 4h30 so it would have to run slower or arrive at poor hours. You'd also have to find drivers willing to do overnight runs, likely at higher pay. Higher pay for a longer time while having fewer passengers who pay less and the profit margin quickly gets a lot smaller.

NR doesn't like overnight paths as it makes it difficult to get overnight possessions for maintenance. The Caledonian Sleeper goes via the ECML when the WCML is closed

 

[tiptoptaff]

It isn't an unreasonable suggestion, DB run some regular services at night in Germany and they tend to be fairly popular with interrail users.


London - Scotland on a coach takes about 9 hours, alright for an overnight coach to arrive at around 7:30 am the next day. The train takes around 4h30 so it would have to run slower or arrive at poor hours. You'd also have to find drivers willing to do overnight runs, likely at higher pay. Higher pay for a longer time while having fewer passengers who pay less and the profit margin quickly gets a lot smaller.

NR doesn't like overnight paths as it makes it difficult to get overnight possessions for maintenance. The Caledonian Sleeper goes via the ECML when the WCML is closed

You don't have to worry about "finding drivers to work overnights at higher pay"

Drivers work nights. We're told we have nights in our links, we have to work them. No additional pay for that. Not since the 1980s.

 

[Energy]

You don't have to worry about "finding drivers to work overnights at higher pay"

Drivers work nights. We're told we have nights in our links, we have to work them. No additional pay for that. Not since the 1980s.

Fair enough, still there are few people using overnight coaches and Lumo won't be able to undercut them.

 

[najaB]

NR doesn't like overnight paths as it makes it difficult to get overnight possessions for maintenance. The Caledonian Sleeper goes via the ECML when the WCML is closed

Hence why I'd time it for something like six and a half hours, plenty of scope for diversions if needed.

Fair enough, still there are few people using overnight coaches and Lumo won't be able to undercut them.

Every time I've used one, it's been reasonably busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The overnight coaches do do OK, but it is worth noting that the entire capacity of all of them is far less than one Lumo 80x.

 

[najaB]

The overnight coaches do do OK, but it is worth noting that the entire capacity of all of them is far less than one Lumo 80x.

But, to what extent is that because people don't like coach travel in general? Would a cheap overnight train be more popular? I don't know but it very well could be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, to what extent is that because people don't like coach travel in general? Would a cheap overnight train be more popular? I don't know but it very well could be.

The seating loads on the Cally might give an indication - does the Edinburgh portion regularly book full?

 

[Trainbike46]

The seating loads on the Cally might give an indication - does the Edinburgh portion regularly book full?

The glasgow one does, in my experience, fill up most nights. At the very least it did all the nights I travelled on it, which weren't what I would expect to be peak nights. Occasionally I've not been able to get a seat reservation a few weeks in advance, and when that was the case the Edinburgh portion was also fully booked

 

[JonathanH]

There are only 31 seats in each of the Caledonian Sleeper seated portions. That is a huge leap to 400 seats in a 803.

 

[najaB]

There are only 31 seats in each of the Caledonian Sleeper seated portions. That is a huge leap to 400 seats in a 803.

Both true statements. But neither answers the question of if there's enough of a market for Lumo to make money.

 

[RT4038]

It isn't. Coaches could have trolleys, they just don't find it economic.

Exactly, because the number of customers per trolley in a coach is small compared to a train.

Both true statements. But neither answers the question of if there's enough of a market for Lumo to make money.

Quite, but who knows and I suspect a financial risk that Lumo is not prepared to take.

 

[dk1]

You don't have to worry about "finding drivers to work overnights at higher pay"

Drivers work nights. We're told we have nights in our links, we have to work them. No additional pay for that. Not since the 1980s.

Really? I detested nights & did them constantly from 1994-2011 as a clerical officer then driver. Moved up links & haven’t done a single one since 2011 & have no intention of doing another ever again as long as I live.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Really? I detested nights & did them constantly from 1994-2011 as a clerical officer then driver. Moved up links & haven’t done a single one since 2011 & have no intention of doing another ever again as long as I live.

If it was in your link, you'd do them. Not like you'd have a choice to refuse.

 

[dk1]

If it was in your link, you'd do them. Not like you'd have a choice to refuse.

It was then but not for the last 13 years. Thank the good Lord for IC1 in my world

 

[tiptoptaff]

It was then but not for the last 13 years. Thank the good Lord for IC1 in my world

My point was a general one anyway - drivers are expected to work all variety of shifts without extra compensation, ever since the flexible rostering agreement back in the 80s.

LUMO drivers already have nights in their link, so adding one for an overnight KGX-NCL turn (you'd in theory run thr NCL-EDB as an early, with timings being say 0400-0500 off NCL) wouldn't be a barrier to an overnight train

 

[dk1]

My point was a general one anyway - drivers are expected to work all variety of shifts without extra compensation, ever since the flexible rostering agreement back in the 80s.

LUMO drivers already have nights in their link, so adding one for an overnight KGX-NCL turn (you'd in theory run thr NCL-EDB as an early, with timings being say 0400-0500 off NCL) wouldn't be a barrier to an overnight train

Oh yes and quite understand. Just saying I no longer have to and never will again. We all do our time in one way or another.

 

[najaB]

Quite, but who knows and I suspect a financial risk that Lumo is not prepared to take.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them trial it in August when the festivals are on. If they can't get decent loads then, that means there's no chance of it making money the rest of the year.

 

[ShadowKnight]

If considering an extension to Glasgow, would going to Glasgow Queen Street high level via the Falkirk line may suit better with the higher speed services there?

 

[najaB]

If considering an extension to Glasgow, would going to Glasgow Queen Street high level via the Falkirk line may suit better with the higher speed services there?

Is that instead of or in addition to a ScotRail service?

 

[Taunton]

The financial difficulty with buying extra carriages is they only provide any additional revenue once all the seats in the existing formation are sold. This doesn't apply to all services, possibly not even a majority. Even then you have to sell all the seats in the additional carriage to come up to the earning level of the current vehicles. What percentage of current Lumo trains are sold out?

 

[najaB]

The financial difficulty with buying extra carriages is they only provide any additional revenue once all the seats in the existing formation are sold.

Unless they go with the idea of Lumo+ (or whatever you want to call it), where people might trade up for a different/better class of service.

 

[A S Leib]

Apart from ScotRail and SWR, is through ticketing available with any other TOCs? Could through ticketing with Northern from Carlisle to compete with Avanti on price work, or with Thameslink / other southern TOCs via Stevenage / King's Cross?

 

[Failed Unit]

It wouldn't surprise me to see them trial it in August when the festivals are on. If they can't get decent loads then, that means there's no chance of it making money the rest of the year.

Didn't Eurostar used to run an overnight ski train? I think that used to load well as people could get an extra day ski-ing. Found it.

To me I think if Lumo did run such a train it would be used by students, not my cup of tea now. A 2.30am departure arriving at Kings Cross at 7am could be messy, but the fare yeild would be low. I can't see people paying much for it.

​

What was the overnight Eurostar Ski Train?​

The direct overnight Eurostar Ski Train was a very simple way to get two extra days on the slopes of the Tarentaise region of the French Alps.

It left London at 8pm and arrived the next morning very early, giving you plenty of time before the ski lifts open and you make first tracks.

The fact that it goes direct was an obvious advantage, but unlike the sleeper trains from Paris, the Eurostar ski train had no actual couchette beds, only reclining seats. This means that not everyone gets a great night's sleep on it. It's a bit like Marmite - some love it, some not so much.

There's always a frission of excitement when you board an overnight train headed for the Alps, knowing that next morning you'll arrive minutes from the slopes.

Years ago, the Snow Train with it's legendary Disco Carriage meant that, if you wanted to, you could party — however unwisely — from the moment you boarded until you arrived the next morning. Things are different on the Eurostar. The atmosphere has been some what muted by Eurostar's banning of alcohol on board. You can bring your own food on board, but you can't bring alchohol, nor can you buy it at the bar.

 

[dk1]

Didn't Eurostar used to run an overnight ski train? I think that used to load well as people could get an extra day ski-ing. Found it.

To me I think if Lumo did run such a train it would be used by students, not my cup of tea now. A 2.30am departure arriving at Kings Cross at 7am could be messy, but the fare yeild would be low. I can't see people paying much for it.

​

Yes they did. I’m not sure how profitable they were considering what goes into operating them for a short period each year. Eurostar has said it’s only interested in its core operation (& Amsterdam) for the next few years although the latter is temporarily suspended over the next few months.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from ScotRail and SWR, is through ticketing available with any other TOCs? Could through ticketing with Northern from Carlisle to compete with Avanti on price work, or with Thameslink / other southern TOCs via Stevenage / King's Cross?

With most tickets sold via Trainline and that doing basic splits they already come up, e.g. at 1054 today (but "sold out").

 

[A S Leib]

A 2.30am departure arriving at Kings Cross at 7am could be messy, but the fare yeild would be low. I can't see people paying much for it.

I think it might get a bit more patronage if it were timed to allow later connections for northern Scotland than the latest currently possible without using the Sleeper; at the moment, the latest non-Sleeper departure from Inverness possible without an overnight stay is 14:50 to London or ~15:40 for Newcastle. The problem is that the latest Inverness to Edinburgh option (changing at Stirling) gets to Edinburgh at 00:17, and I doubt there'd be much demand for an 05:00 arrival at King's Cross apart from possibly early-morning Eurostar passengers (or for Gatwick, but I suspect most people in that situation would take connecting flights).

Would Lumo offering shuttle bus services timed to connect onto their own services from e.g. Luton to Stevenage or Ashington to Morpeth (until the Northumberland line opens) be workable?

 

[ainsworth74]

Hence why I'd time it for something like six and a half hours, plenty of scope for diversions if needed.

Though as EMUs their diversionary options are quite limited which is quite obvious as they often have to thrown the towel in whilst LNER, GC and HT are able to scrabble something together.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though as EMUs their diversionary options are quite limited which is quite obvious as they often have to thrown the towel in whilst LNER, GC and HT are able to scrabble something together.

They'd certainly benefit from adding batteries to their fleet, even if that only gave them a short diversionary/recovery option. I get that they've shouted so much about being environmentally friendly that they've effectively self sabotaged (e.g. not being able to use the Lumo brand for the new Sheffield service but instead having to use the incredibly clumsy "Sheffield by Hull Trains*"), but this would give them a reasonable get-out even if it wouldn't allow major off-wires runs.

* At least both are in Yorkshire. Imagine "Liverpool by Manchester Trains"? Nobody would use it

 

[Failed Unit]

When you look at the CAF units recently ordered by LNER have an engine as well, I suspect that most of the diversion routes are too long.

Edinburgh - Newcastle, about as long away from the wires as the route via Lincoln so probably out of battery capabilites.
Newcastle - York, probably involves some stretch around the Durham coast.
York - Doncaster, I suspect Batteries would be able to get them over the non-electrified bit between Leeds and York
Doncaster - Peterborough I understand is out of range for the current technology hence why the CAF fleet have batteries

 

[najaB]

To me I think if Lumo did run such a train it would be used by students, not my cup of tea now. A 2.30am departure arriving at Kings Cross at 7am could be messy, but the fare yeild would be low. I can't see people paying much for it.

Students might make up a significant share of the market, but if I had to guess (based on age), on my most recent Scotland/London overnight coach way less than half of the passengers were students. The majority were like myself - people who had more time to spend than money.

In my case I was flying from London and the cost of EasyJet flight with checked baggage would have been over three times as expensive as the coach plus an off-peak Oyster fare to Gatwick.

Though as EMUs their diversionary options are quite limited which is quite obvious as they often have to thrown the towel in whilst LNER, GC and HT are able to scrabble something together.

I did actually wonder about that - I couldn't remember if they had 'last mile' diesels or not.