How could Okehampton patronage be increased (including bus links/through fares)?

[brad465]

Moderator note: Split from

Okehampton - Exeter open a year- success?

It's been a year since "levelling up" reopened the 16 odd miles from Exeter to Okehampton. Passenger numbers seem up, has it been a success for all concerned?

www.railforums.co.uk

From an infrastructure perspective they could perhaps do with upgrading the line speed from Crediton to (former) Coleford Jct, which is only 40mph despite the neighbouring Tarka line track being 70 for MUs, and beyond the jct towards Okehampton upgrades were done to get 75mph.

Even if only a few mins at most are saved, with tight turnarounds and long single-track sections this could make a difference.

 

[zwk500]

From an infrastructure perspective they could perhaps do with upgrading the line speed from Crediton to (former) Coleford Jct, which is only 40mph despite the neighbouring Tarka line track being 70 for MUs, and beyond the jct towards Okehampton upgrades were done to get 75mph. Even if only a few mins at most are saved, with tight turnarounds and long single-track sections this could make a difference.

An upgrade from 40 to 60mph would be a journey time reduction of around 40% (1 mile takes 1'30 vs 1 mile takes 1', some benefit is lost at stops and not full length at 60mph). It's about 8 miles from Cowley Bridge Jn to Crediton so potential savings of 3/4 minutes, more if you can get 75mph.

 

[nw1]

More through ticketing (as well as Bude) is being negotiated by Devon County Council and Cornwall County Council with operators.

Really excellent to see. More, please.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really excellent to see. More, please.

Bude (and key other Cornish destinations not served by rail) in the National Rail journey planner with through fares would be a big coup.

 

[stuu]

Bude (and key other Cornish destinations not served by rail) in the National Rail journey planner with through fares would be a big coup.

Yes it is barking mad that this can be done in some locations but isn't more widespread. It's such an easy win

 

[Craig1122]

Bude (and key other Cornish destinations not served by rail) in the National Rail journey planner with through fares would be a big coup.

There was a move in this direction during the early 2000's, for example in Devon 'Holsworthy Bus' was a destination and I think at one point bus times between Keswick and Penrith were shown in journey planners.

They were never fully integrated in the fares database as the bus element was generally an 'add on' that had to be calculated manually. Unfortunately along with 'plus bus' the publicity was patchy so few people knew it was possible and the whole thing seems to have ended up in the 'too difficult' box.

 

[yorksrob]

Bude (and key other Cornish destinations not served by rail) in the National Rail journey planner with through fares would be a big coup.

Padstow please !

 

[Bald Rick]

Bude (and key other Cornish destinations not served by rail) in the National Rail journey planner with through fares would be a big coup.

Padstow please !

And back on topic - Tavistock!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really, looking at Cornwall and Devon as a whole, the presence of a rail "spine" with an hourly service (post cuts) and hourly branches connecting with it means you get best public transport reach by integrating with it for a lot of journeys, Swiss style. It's certainly headed the right way with this approach, even if most of us might wish they'd take TfW's 158s and not lop the mainline service down to hourly.

The other notable thing about Cornwall is that it's a popular destination for young Londoners, and young Londoners tend not to have cars, which is quite different from say the Lakes where most visitors drive there. Could you imagine filling a 9 car Pendolino hourly to Windermere with almost everyone doing the full trip from London? It's like that.

 

[yorksrob]

And back on topic - Tavistock!

I think that that would be more suited to a rail connection !

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that that would be more suited to a rail connection !

You can of course prove the viability (or otherwise) of that by starting with a properly integrated bus.

 

[zwk500]

I think that that would be more suited to a rail connection !

Not on this thread please!

You can of course prove the viability (or otherwise) of that by starting with a properly integrated bus.

Putting bus times and fares for Okehampton-Tavistock, Tavistock-Plymouth and a Tavistock-Bere Alston shuttle into rail journey planners would certainly be a darn sight cheaper than building the railway. May well be cheaper than a feasibility study.

 

[yorksrob]

You can of course prove the viability (or otherwise) of that by starting with a properly integrated bus.

I wouldn't mind betting that Plymouth - Tavistock already has a well used bus and that it is slower and suffers more congestion than would a reinstated rail connection !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Putting bus times and fares for Okehampton-Tavistock, Tavistock-Plymouth and a Tavistock-Bere Alston shuttle into rail journey planners would certainly be a darn sight cheaper than building the railway. May well be cheaper than a feasibility study.

You could even sell more of this if the way PlusBus was presented (where sold online) was changed. The way people interact with a planner when they don't know the network is to type in their home station in "from" and where they're going in "to". If you just added the likes of Bude to the list, and had it automatically include PlusBus in the fare when a bus connection valid for it came up, you'd sell a lot more without changing a lot else. Even though we *should* change other things to make it work better.

 

[yorksrob]

Not on this thread please!

I don't see how the rail line to Tavistock is any more off topic than various miscellaneous bus connections !

You could even sell more of this if the way PlusBus was presented (where sold online) was changed. The way people interact with a planner when they don't know the network is to type in their home station in "from" and where they're going in "to". If you just added the likes of Bude to the list, and had it automatically include PlusBus in the fare when a bus connection valid for it came up, you'd sell a lot more without changing a lot else. Even though we *should* change other things to make it work better.

I did investigate plus bus to Padstow, however it simply didn't reach that far. It's designed for local connections.

 

[zwk500]

I don't see how the rail line to Tavistock is any more off topic than various miscellaneous bus connections !

It's probably not, you're right. But the other thread on the Tavistock line is probably the better place.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't mind betting that Plymouth - Tavistock already has a well used bus and that it is slower and suffers more congestion than would a reinstated rail connection !

As described on the Tavistock thread, yes. It is well used, it is slower than a railway would be, but then it stops a lot. No one has tested a non stop bus Tavistock - Plymouth, integrated to the rail fares system, which would be cheaper to run, cost nothing to ‘build’, and could be done in a couple of months rather than waiting 8 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As described on the Tavistock thread, yes. It is well used, it is slower than a railway would be, but then it stops a lot. No one has tested a non stop bus Tavistock - Plymouth, integrated to the rail fares system, which would be cheaper to run, cost nothing to ‘build’, and could be done in a couple of months rather than waiting 8 years.

Nobody ever seems to try that sort of thing in the UK, which is a crying shame. Even Trawscymru isn't fully integrated, and as those are tendered there's literally nothing stopping them doing it, it was a deliberate decision not to do so.

The inability to do this properly is the reason I'm so opposed to branch line closures. A proper European-style bus replacement, which could offer a more frequent service for less money in some cases, would otherwise be more than acceptable.

Even the 1990s RailLinks project didn't properly integrate, you couldn't buy a through ticket to any of them nor use them in the middle of a journey without splitting (e.g. from Didcot to Northampton via the X5 to MKC). The only thing that came in handy for was getting Railcard discounts on the X5 fare, which MKC booking office would do even if they weren't meant to.

Cornwall seems about the best place to try it in conjunction with what's already there because of the way it's a long, narrow place with a railway acting as a central spine.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nobody ever seems to try that sort of thing in the UK, which is a crying shame. Even Trawscymru isn't fully integrated, and as those are tendered there's literally nothing stopping them doing it, it was a deliberate decision not to do so.

The inability to do this properly is the reason I'm so opposed to branch line closures. A proper European-style bus replacement, which could offer a more frequent service for less money in some cases, would otherwise be more than acceptable.

Even the 1990s RailLinks project didn't properly integrate, you couldn't buy a through ticket to any of them nor use them in the middle of a journey without splitting (e.g. from Didcot to Northampton via the X5 to MKC). The only thing that came in handy for was getting Railcard discounts on the X5 fare, which MKC booking office would do even if they weren't meant to.

Cornwall seems about the best place to try it in conjunction with what's already there because of the way it's a long, narrow place with a railway acting as a central spine.

I can understand the reluctance to do this until about 10 years ago, simply because of ticketing arrangements. You can imagine Mrs Miggins getting on the number 26 bus in Little Whinging (Somerset) and asking for an off peak return to Keswick, with Senior Railcard, and could she reserve a seat on the Birmingham to Penrith stage, and have a first class upgrade on the return please.

Technology has resolved that now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can understand the reluctance to do this until about 10 years ago, simply because of ticketing arrangements. You can imagine Mrs mugging getting on the number 26 bus in Little Whinging (Somerset) and asking for an off peak return to Keswick, with Senior Railcard, and could she reserve a seat on the Birmingham to Penrith stage, and have a first class upgrade on the return please.

Technology has resolved that now.

Indeed.

Keswick is a wonderful example here. There's an excellent bus service which runs from directly outside the station straight to one of the busiest towns in the Lake District, and even if you have to wait a bit you can sit with a cup of tea in the adjacent McDonald's at any time of day. But if you put it in the NRE journey planner, you just get "no station found". This is literally throwing away money, even if all you did was sell the single bus fare and send it straight to Stagecoach, or even if you just put it in the timetable stating the bus fare has to be paid on the day (as contactless makes this rather easy). Same with Ambleside from Windermere. The railway must lose tens of thousands worth of business each year over this simple matter, because "we're a train, that's a bus, we're different".

 

[zwk500]

Cornwall seems about the best place to try it in conjunction with what's already there because of the way it's a long, narrow place with a railway acting as a central spine.

Sussex is also a good place to try it as you have numerous small- and medium-sized towns about 30 minutes bus ride away from a station with a 2tph London service.

 

[paul1609]

As described on the Tavistock thread, yes. It is well used, it is slower than a railway would be, but then it stops a lot. No one has tested a non stop bus Tavistock - Plymouth, integrated to the rail fares system, which would be cheaper to run, cost nothing to ‘build’, and could be done in a couple of months rather than waiting 8 years.

You can of course prove the viability (or otherwise) of that by starting with a properly integrated bus.

The problem with an integrated express bus is that if you live in Tavistock you almost certainly have access to a car.
Although its 4 times the distance geographically Tiverton Parkway is reliably only about 30 mins longer away by road (a30 & M5) vice Plymouth.
Saving 90mins on the rail journey to anywhere East of Exeter from Plymouth and with a more frequent service.
Knocks £20 per person off the price of an example off peak return to Paddington.
Tivvy Parkway parking is 2/3rds the cost of Plymouth.
Tavistock itself has no parking which allows more than 24 hr.
Bit of a no brainer really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with an integrated express bus is that if you live in Tavistock you almost certainly have access to a car.

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

* The Isle of Wight is another one, which is how it sustains possibly the best rural bus network in the world, and certainly the best in the UK.

 

[paul1609]

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

* The Isle of Wight is another one, which is how it sustains possibly the best rural bus network in the world, and certainly the best in the UK.

Its some years since I went to Tavistock but I very much doubt its become a hot spot with young Londoners since then.
It has a population of 11k with one decent hotel (The Bedford?) and about half a dozen smaller establishments.
pleasant enough town and still a drinking centre for Young Farmers Clubs and Senior Walkers who mostly arrive in Hondas Id imagine.

 

[zwk500]

Cornwall and Devon are probably close to unique* within the UK, though, in that a very large proportion of the tourist trade arrives by train, not by car, due to its massive popularity with young Londoners.

Most of the tourists though will only go as far as the rail-connected places, such as Newquay and Torbay. Ilfracombe and Tavistock are going to be of niche interest at best, surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most of the tourists though will only go as far as the rail-connected places, such as Newquay and Torbay. Ilfracombe and Tavistock are going to be of niche interest at best, surely?

Perhaps. Bude is the fairly obvious touristy place that isn't accessible by rail, I guess, but there are others.

 

[Benjwri]

The railway must lose tens of thousands worth of business each year over this simple matter, because "we're a train, that's a bus, we're different".

The issue is a lack of want or need to fix it though. Rail companies don't really care because they are protected, at least to an extent, through subsidies. I'm going to guess most bus routes that would benefit from this are subsidised, and regardless bus fares are already cut throat for the operators, they just don't want to lower their fares. They were dragged kicking and screaming into PlusBus, this would have to be the same.

I think the best we would ever see is a continuous PAYG authority in cities between trains and buses, but if GWR failed to do this with their Bristol PAYG scheme, considering the bus operator is FirstBus, which is obviously owned by FirstGroup and launched a separate tap on tap off scheme within a month of GWR, and there was significant pressure for them ro integrate from the West of England councils, this is fairly unlikely to happen any time soon.

 

[zwk500]

The issue is a lack of want or need to fix it though. Rail companies don't really care because they are protected, at least to an extent, through subsidies. I'm going to guess most bus routes that would benefit from this are subsidised, and regardless bus fares are already cut throat for the operators, they just don't want to lower their fares. They were dragged kicking and screaming into PlusBus, this would have to be the same.

I think the best we would ever see is a continuous PAYG authority in cities between trains and buses, but if GWR failed to do this with their Bristol PAYG scheme, considering the bus operator is FirstBus, which is obviously owned by FirstGroup and launched a separate tap on tap off scheme within a month of GWR, and there was significant pressure for them ro integrate from the West of England councils, this is fairly unlikely to happen any time soon.

I suspect the biggest sticking point is who pays to maintain the data. With the way the rail industry systems are set up at the moment, NR would need to set up the bus links in it's system and then get the bus companies to send NR files to upload. Obviously this has a staffing requirement to build and maintain, as well as software licensing costs etc. In a sensible world, there'd be a point in the process where bus companies could link their systems in directly to the files before they're sent out downstream, but that also has an implementation cost.
It's classic case of 'we all love the idea, but want you to pay for it.' Which goes down about as well as you'd think it would.

 

[The exile]

I suspect the biggest sticking point is who pays to maintain the data. With the way the rail industry systems are set up at the moment, NR would need to set up the bus links in it's system and then get the bus companies to send NR files to upload. Obviously this has a staffing requirement to build and maintain, as well as software licensing costs etc. In a sensible world, there'd be a point in the process where bus companies could link their systems in directly to the files before they're sent out downstream, but that also has an implementation cost.
It's classic case of 'we all love the idea, but want you to pay for it.' Which goes down about as well as you'd think it would.

Would imagine the competition authorities would also put their oar in (unfortunately) Cartels and all that….

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would imagine the competition authorities would also put their oar in (unfortunately) Cartels and all that….

The irony of that, as ever, is that cartels are generally beneficial for public transport users. The car and the taxi prevent them abusing their position by overcharging.