How could the Southeastern network be improved?

[bramling]

Reading the report into the original plans for metroisation on the southeastern. It claimed that when tfl took over the abellio greater anglia routes fare evasion fell by 86% the presence of gatelines and a stronger financial incentive on the operator to minimise fare evasion seems to drive revenue which can pay for first to last train station staffing.

That’s fine, however the DFT can easily write that into a franchise agreement should they want to do so. It doesn’t solve the problem of who pays for it in terms of the up-front costs.

 

[matt_world2004]

That’s fine, however the DFT can easily write that into a franchise agreement should they want to do so. It doesn’t solve the problem of who pays for it in terms of the up-front costs.

And yet they don't.

 

[zwk500]

And yet they don't.

Because the railway company asks them when they can expect the cheque. These franchise agreements aren't absolute diktats - the government cannot impose an unreasonable obligation or nobody would bid for it. Also worth pointing out the DfT are currently running SE through the OLR, so they'd be imposing a commitment on themselves to fund more ticket office staff.

 

[TrenHotel]

Twitter post No.3 dragged up a point that we just discussed, about a TfL takeover. The thing that puzzles me the most is the how they go on to blame Southeastern, for something that was completely out of their control:

There were never these scenes at London Bridge before the new timetable was introduced - sure, there were issues at Cannon Street in particular during this sort of disruption, but now that bottleneck has moved to London Bridge, and behind the gateline too.

Reducing the number of trains (compared with pre-Covid times) and forcing passengers to change at London Bridge has made the system a lot less resilient and is contributing hugely to scenes like this. This is on the DfT and Southeasterm.

 

[Taunton]

Lewisham junction was completely relaid over the Christmas break, was it not?

OK. Haven't looked since. This presumably coinciding with the recent timetable change, which seems to have tried to eliminate using those same expensively-relaid crossovers there as much as possible

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why do people think that if TfL take over the metro lines then there’s magically going to be 10tph from every station to every london terminal. It’s not going to happen! All that will change is the colour of the signs and the staff uniform! If they can afford to do even that. There will still be the same capacity constraints

While I agree about capacity constraints etc., one thing that you could expect would immediately change if TfL took over the lines is that the Oyster/contactless fares would become the cheaper TfL fares instead of the more expensive NR fares. That would be especially beneficial for anyone who then uses the tube to get from CHX/LBG/CST to wherever they actually want to go - since those people currently have to pay the super-expensive combined NR/tube fares.

That and the better ticket checking that other people have already pointed out.

 

[matt_world2004]

While I agree about capacity constraints etc., one thing that you could expect would immediately change if TfL took over the lines is that the Oyster/contactless fares would become the cheaper TfL fares instead of the more expensive NR fares. That would be especially beneficial for anyone who then uses the tube to get from CHX/LBG/CST to wherever they actually want to go - since those people currently have to pay the super-expensive combined NR/tube fares.

That and the better ticket checking that other people have already pointed out.

Freedom passes (particularly disabled people's freedom passes ) would also gain greater validity.

In the strategic case for metroisation the cost benefit ratio was 4.3-1 so for every £1 invested in converting southeastern to london overground there would be a return to the economy of £4.30

 

[ScotGG]

From memory the only Bexleyheath line stations that even have ticket gates are Eltham and Bexleyheath, and I can’t think of any Hayes line station at all with them.

Ah yes of course Eltham. I used that a lot until recently when I started using other lines more.

It was also regularly open during the day due to lack of staff for many years and always open in the evenings.

I actually didn't mind the plan to simplify terminals and thought London Bridge would be fine but I'm changing my mind now. It may have worked if timetables hadn't been reduced but now it's causing lots of issues including some I didn't foresee.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I actually didn't mind the plan to simplify terminals and thought London Bridge would be fine but I'm changing my mind now. It may have worked if timetables hadn't been reduced but now it's causing lots of issues including some I didn't foresee.

That's interesting. I also thought the plan to simplify terminals was, in principle, fine. I remember the days 3-4 years ago when (on the Woolwich) line, trains went to 3 different terminals, and it meant that returning home from the West End was always a total nightmare of trying to figure out which London terminal I should go to, depending on the exact time. For all practical purposes, it often felt like the service was no more convenient than if it was only half-hourly, despite the line being served by 8tph at that time. So I would have much preferred a timetable where you got - say = a train every 10 minutes, always going to the same destination, and if you wanted a different London terminal, you could reliably change with only a short wait at London Bridge.

But clearly, now you have something more like that, it has caused problems at London Bridge. I hope, like you say, it is basically caused by the lower frequencies, as I still think a train every 10 minutes to the same place is the ideal as far as providing a turn-up-and-go service and not basically requiring people to memorise timetables is concerned.

 

[hkstudent]

That's interesting. I also thought the plan to simplify terminals was, in principle, fine. I remember the days 3-4 years ago when (on the Woolwich) line, trains went to 3 different terminals, and it meant that returning home from the West End was always a total nightmare of trying to figure out which London terminal I should go to, depending on the exact time. For all practical purposes, it often felt like the service was no more convenient than if it was only half-hourly, despite the line being served by 8tph at that time. So I would have much preferred a timetable where you got - say = a train every 10 minutes, always going to the same destination, and if you wanted a different London terminal, you could reliably change with only a short wait at London Bridge.

But clearly, now you have something more like that, it has caused problems at London Bridge. I hope, like you say, it is basically caused by the lower frequencies, as I still think a train every 10 minutes to the same place is the ideal as far as providing a turn-up-and-go service and not basically requiring people to memorise timetables is concerned.

It seems that more people now trying to resort to wait at Lewisham instead as that involves shorter walk and less waiting time.
But that's not gonna improve any situation, or maybe worsen the case at Lewisham

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Didn't tfl also have the plan of simplifying the terminals, would this have caused similar problems.
Don't Rail delivery group have software for modelling flows through stations ? Tfl has? And applying this modelling to service changes .

They plan to simplify the service with a important note: high frequency of no less than 6 trains per hour, which would enable turn up and go service and minimise wait at London Bridge / Lewisham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Ah yes of course Eltham. I used that a lot until recently when I started using other lines more.

It was also regularly open during the day due to lack of staff for many years and always open in the evenings.

I actually didn't mind the plan to simplify terminals and thought London Bridge would be fine but I'm changing my mind now. It may have worked if timetables hadn't been reduced but now it's causing lots of issues including some I didn't foresee.

Welling also gets the gates on both sides and Falconwood get a gated ticket hall as well (but rarely staffed after peak hours)

 

[NorthKent1989]

That's interesting. I also thought the plan to simplify terminals was, in principle, fine. I remember the days 3-4 years ago when (on the Woolwich) line, trains went to 3 different terminals, and it meant that returning home from the West End was always a total nightmare of trying to figure out which London terminal I should go to, depending on the exact time. For all practical purposes, it often felt like the service was no more convenient than if it was only half-hourly, despite the line being served by 8tph at that time. So I would have much preferred a timetable where you got - say = a train every 10 minutes, always going to the same destination, and if you wanted a different London terminal, you could reliably change with only a short wait at London Bridge.

But clearly, now you have something more like that, it has caused problems at London Bridge. I hope, like you say, it is basically caused by the lower frequencies, as I still think a train every 10 minutes to the same place is the ideal as far as providing a turn-up-and-go service and not basically requiring people to memorise timetables is concerned.

I don’t think deciding which terminal to use on the way home from the West End has ever been a major issue, one of the major draws of living in SE London was the choice of terminals and by and large if one going on a night out then they’re usually in the West End, so Charing Cross was always the only choice in this regard, since Cannon Street is pretty dead outside of peak hour.

The Woolwich line has only ever been served by two terminals, the Bexleyheath had three pre timetable change.

 

[bromleyboy21]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

Minimum wage is around £10 per hour so based on 8 hour shifts that's £80 x 6 people = £480.00 per day in staff costs.

You'd then have things like national insurance and pension costs on top of that.

So say you round up to perhaps £750 per day per station that's around £275k per year - is that kind of figure likely to be recouped?

 

[43066]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

Minimum wage is around £10 per hour so based on 8 hour shifts that's £80 x 6 people = £480.00 per day in staff costs.

You'd then have things like national insurance and pension costs on top of that.

So say you round up to perhaps £750 per day per station that's around £275k per year - is that kind of figure likely to be recouped?

But there’s also the cost of installing gate lines/resigning access where there aren’t any currently (ie at most non major stations). Plus of course many journeys will already originate or finish at a station with a gateline, so it’s debatable how much would he recovered.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

2 shifts would cover 14 hours - say, 6am to 8pm, which would see you through the vast majority of travel (though admittedly, not the time when antisocial behaviour/ticketless travel is most likely). 2 and a half shifts would probably see you through most of the rest of the evening, if you assume 7 hour shifts. A bit of creative thinking and flexibility with working practices would save more costs/get additional benefit, if the job description included generally looking after the station, selling tickets and answering passenger queries, cleaning during quiet periods when staff would otherwise just be standing around, etc.

As for the benefits... How much did passenger numbers at Abbey Wood increase when TfL gated it, but before the Elizabeth line was running?

 

[Craig1122]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

Minimum wage is around £10 per hour so based on 8 hour shifts that's £80 x 6 people = £480.00 per day in staff costs.

You'd then have things like national insurance and pension costs on top of that.

So say you round up to perhaps £750 per day per station that's around £275k per year - is that kind of figure likely?

I was involved some years back with gateline staffing and our target was 2 staff 0600-2200, extended to midnight on Friday and Saturday. Most shifts 0600-1400 or 1400-2200.

This was with no ability to sell tickets as that costs more in various ways so if anyone arrived ticketless they would just be sent to the machine/ticket office, so they could just walk off.

Pay was close to minimum wage and in reality we struggled to cover all the positions and the quality of the staff was erm... variable. The good ones tended to move on fairly quickly. This meant it wasn't uncommon for the gateline to be single manned (little chance of anti social behaviour being challenged) or just left open.

 

[ScotGG]

If it was uneconomic it wouldn't be so widespread on other networks?

It wouldn't be that hard to install at some stations. Take Plumstead. Two exits currently which could be altered to one by closing the other as part of upcoming rebuild works. Thousands of new homes being built nearby to boot.

Then there's Woolwich Dockyard. Close one entrance and barrier the other or have one remotely operated? User numbers at the moment may not justify but again thousands of homes coming nearby.

The SE Metro network must be one of few where stations rebuilt with no barriers and few staff even in major growth areas. See Deptford and Kidbrooke.

 

[hkstudent]

I was involved some years back with gateline staffing and our target was 2 staff 0600-2200, extended to midnight on Friday and Saturday. Most shifts 0600-1400 or 1400-2200.

This was with no ability to sell tickets as that costs more in various ways so if anyone arrived ticketless they would just be sent to the machine/ticket office, so they could just walk off.

Pay was close to minimum wage and in reality we struggled to cover all the positions and the quality of the staff was erm... variable. The good ones tended to move on fairly quickly. This meant it wasn't uncommon for the gateline to be single manned (little chance of anti social behaviour being challenged) or just left open.

I am thinking whether gateline duty can be a attractive part time option to the housewives/househusbands for just working day shifts till 4pm to retain most outbound revenue?

At some Thameslink managed station like Harpenden, one of gateline would be remotely controlled.
I am thinking whether it would be possible to down the staff to one only in ticket office with barrier to be controlled by there.

 

[Craig1122]

I am thinking whether gateline duty can be a attractive part time option to the housewives/househusbands for just working day shifts till 4pm to retain most outbound revenue?

At some Thameslink managed station like Harpenden, one of gateline would be remotely controlled.
I am thinking whether it would be possible to down the staff to one only in ticket office with barrier to be controlled by there.

Most of ours were part time, mainly because it's cheaper to employ people for under a certain number of hours per week. It's easy giving people flexible shifts to suit outside commitments, what isn't always easy is filling the gaps round them.

For example our recruitment people wanted to take someone on for 0900-1400 to fit in with school hours. I think we compromised on 1000-1400 because I knew that the 3 hours 0600-0900 would be impossible to fill.

At that pay rate you're also competing against retail and similar jobs which tend not to involve standing outside in all weathers and probably come with less abuse from the general public!

 

[Mikey C]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

Minimum wage is around £10 per hour so based on 8 hour shifts that's £80 x 6 people = £480.00 per day in staff costs.

You'd then have things like national insurance and pension costs on top of that.

So say you round up to perhaps £750 per day per station that's around £275k per year - is that kind of figure likely to be recouped?

There's also the 3rd option, which is to SIGNIFICANTLY step up the amount of ticket inspections, so that people are more wary about not tapping in and out properly.

How does the DLR do when it comes to fare evasion, seeing that most DLR stations are open, and in a similar type of area to Souheastern?

 

[Bald Rick]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

Minimum wage is around £10 per hour so based on 8 hour shifts that's £80 x 6 people = £480.00 per day in staff costs.

You'd then have things like national insurance and pension costs on top of that.

So say you round up to perhaps £750 per day per station that's around £275k per year - is that kind of figure likely to be recouped?

You need to at least treble those costs.

 

[matt_world2004]

There's also the 3rd option, which is to SIGNIFICANTLY step up the amount of ticket inspections, so that people are more wary about not tapping in and out properly.

How does the DLR do when it comes to fare evasion, seeing that most DLR stations are open, and in a similar type of area to Souheastern?

Can't comment on the dlr but can comment on the tramlink. Ifyou ride the tram end to end you are near enough guaranteed a ticket inspection at most points during the day.

 

[JonathanH]

You need to at least treble those costs.

So how is money found to gate stations like Ely but not stations with much higher numbers of passengers in South East London where the need is greater.

 

[Craig1122]

There's also the 3rd option, which is to SIGNIFICANTLY step up the amount of ticket inspections, so that people are more wary about not tapping in and out properly.

How does the DLR do when it comes to fare evasion, seeing that most DLR stations are open, and in a similar type of area to Souheastern?

I expect that's probably the sensible answer in combination with operations that are targeted using intelligence. It does happen but it's only really scratching the surface of some of the losses. There are serious amounts lost to people defrauding the system day in day out, and I'm not talking about the stereotypical scrote bunking a couple of stops.

 

[Bald Rick]

So how is money found to gate stations like Ely but not stations with much higher numbers of passengers in South East London where the need is greater.

History. Also, one assumes the average fare paid at Ely is rather higher than that from Eltham.

 

[Edsmith]

History. Also, one assumes the average fare paid at Ely is rather higher than that from Eltham.

Eltham does have ticket gates but the view of Southeastern seems to be that most people are travelling to or from Central London and so will encounter ticket gates at one end of their journey.

 

[ScotGG]

Can't comment on the dlr but can comment on the tramlink. Ifyou ride the tram end to end you are near enough guaranteed a ticket inspection at most points during the day.

DLR checks have stepped up again and on board more than half of most trips lately. Then there's the revenue protection staff.

On Southeastern about 2 onboard checks in 10 years and far fewer checks off the trains, which unlike the DLR are also obvious on approach (they wait downstairs on DLR) so those who don't pay can just stay on the train

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

History. Also, one assumes the average fare paid at Ely is rather higher than that from Eltham.

Ely was gated last year. Cambridge North to give nearby example about three ago when new.

Southeastern stations with far more passengers have none. Doesn't matter if in very busy areas, areas of mass growth, inner London or outer London (or Kent) it's the same story.

It's a breeze to avoid paying on SE or buy a short season ticket if heading to zone 1. Everyone knows it.

 

[BJames]

There's also the 3rd option, which is to SIGNIFICANTLY step up the amount of ticket inspections, so that people are more wary about not tapping in and out properly.

How does the DLR do when it comes to fare evasion, seeing that most DLR stations are open, and in a similar type of area to Souheastern?

That's what NET (Nottingham Trams for those unfamiliar) did, alongside increasing penalty from £50 to £70. It isn't helped by the fact that you can buy a ticket on the app so some still try when inspectors come along, but I've heard reports that they are being more observant with checking exactly when tickets have been bought (i.e. was it 10 seconds ago) and asking more questions if something looks off. I've also seen them have someone at every single door before to ensure that people didn't have time to do that - word soon gets round.

 

[theageofthetra]

The chat about the costs of having staffed gatelines vs lost fares is an interesting one which I presume Southeastern etc have worked out.

As a thought exercise I've worked out the following as a very rough estimation of possible staffing costs:

To staff a station for whole day I guess you'd need 3 shifts and probably 2 members of staff? So that's 6 staff per day.

Minimum wage is around £10 per hour so based on 8 hour shifts that's £80 x 6 people = £480.00 per day in staff costs.

You'd then have things like national insurance and pension costs on top of that.

So say you round up to perhaps £750 per day per station that's around £275k per year - is that kind of figure likely to be recouped?

Why do you need staff? Other countries manage it.

Been to Japanese stations, fully barriered and only way to contact staff is via a touchscreen. (with English spoken too.)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You need to at least treble those costs.

Why? What costs did @bromleyboy21 not account for?

 

[Bald Rick]

Why? What costs did @bromleyboy21 not account for?

Firstly, Gateline staff are not on minimum wage.

Secondly, the way shifts work means that for 2 staff on duty to cover a station every day will need about 8 - 10 people on the roster, to cover things like leave, training, absence, etc., and that’s before we consider what happens with breaks.

Third, the very nature of shift work leads to enhanced pay for some shifts, whether it be Sundays, Bank Holidays, overtime, rest days, nights, whatever.

Fourth, with every employee comes a cost of supervision (ie additional management), training costs, and other back office costs eg HR, Finance, and all the rest of it.