How different was the APTs tilt and carriage space compared to a Pendolino

[YourMum666]

For those who had experience with the APT-P how different was the tilt feeling, and onboard carriage space compared to the current pendolinos in service today

 

[hexagon789]

For those who had experience with the APT-P how different was the tilt feeling, and onboard carriage space compared to the current pendolinos in service today

Originally it was too 'intense', the carriages tilted nine degrees and did so rather violently at times. They completely cancelled out the lateral forces.

Once the engineers realised that this caused a lot of the motion sickness issues, a three-pronged set of modifications was adopted:

- Reduce maximum tilt to eight degrees (same as the later 390 Pendolinos), so that some of the cornering forces were still felt and thus the brain wasn't confused by seeing the horizon moving but feeling nothing.

- Leading vehicle decides the tilt. Instead of each vehicle deciding its tilt individually, now the leading car would start its tilt and based on that the rest of the train would know when and by how much to tilt. Originally the system had a bit of lag because each car worked individually, so sometimes a vehicle wouldn't tilt fast enough and would then suddenly launch into full tilt rather jarringly to try and compensate.

- Each vehicle predicts its tilt off the one in front of it. As well as the leasing vehicle deciding when the trains starts tilting, each vehicle then knows when to tilt by the state of the vehicle in front of it.

These three changes are all present in the tilt system of the 390s.

 

[YourMum666]

Originally it was too 'intense', the carriages tilted nine degrees and did so rather violently at times. They completely cancelled out the lateral forces.

Once the engineers realised that this caused a lot of the motion sickness issues, a three-pronged set of modifications was adopted:

- Reduce maximum tilt to eight degrees (same as the later 390 Pendolinos), so that some of the cornering forces were still felt and thus the brain wasn't confused by seeing the horizon moving but feeling nothing.

- Leading vehicle decides the tilt. Instead of each vehicle deciding its tilt individually, now the leading car would start its tilt and based on that the rest of the train would know when and by how much to tilt. Originally the system had a bit of lag because each car worked individually, so sometimes a vehicle wouldn't tilt fast enough and would then suddenly launch into full tilt rather jarringly to try and compensate.

- Each vehicle predicts its tilt off the one in front of it. As well as the leasing vehicle deciding when the trains starts tilting, each vehicle then knows when to tilt by the state of the vehicle in front of it.

These three changes are all present in the tilt system of the 390s.

a lot of people complained about the pendos having this “claustrophobic feeling” was this the same issue present on the APT

 

[lyndhurst25]

a lot of people complained about the pendos having this “claustrophobic feeling” was this the same issue present on the APT

If you google for images of the APT-P and class 390 interiors they appear to be worlds apart. Plenty of window views and table seats on the APT. By comparison the 390s look like the cabin of an airliner.

 

[hexagon789]

If you google for images of the APT-P and class 390 interiors they appear to be worlds apart. Plenty of window views and table seats on the APT. By comparison the 390s look like the cabin of an airliner.

Yet, ironically, the same was said of the APT-P - it was also compared to an airliner, particularly the headroom and overhead luggage 'bins'.

 

[nlogax]

If you google for images of the APT-P and class 390 interiors they appear to be worlds apart. Plenty of window views and table seats on the APT. By comparison the 390s look like the cabin of an airliner.

I would love to have experienced the APT at full tilt with those large windows. The interior always looked a bright and airy place to be judging by the footage I've seen. The bright red tartan in standard class definitely added to that impression.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

By comparison the 390s look like the cabin of an airliner.

That was a deliberate decision on the part of Virgin; they actually specified it to be similar in feel to being in an aircraft.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

These three changes are all present in the tilt system of the 390s.

I can't remember if the APT had any form of "TASS" control, or was "tilting at will" as on most of the continent.
TASS would have made a difference with the degree of tilt along the route and its location, as it does so successfully on the Pendolinos/Voyagers.
It also limits speeds to the EPS profile, also something I believe the APT lacked.

 

[43096]

I can't remember if the APT had any form of "TASS" control, or was "tilting at will" as on most of the continent.

There was the C-APT ("Control APT") system which used track-mounted transponders. Too much detail to quote in full here, but there is a page on the APT-P site that gives details: http://apt-p.com/aptcapt.htm

 

[hexagon789]

I can't remember if the APT had any form of "TASS" control, or was "tilting at will" as on most of the continent.
TASS would have made a difference with the degree of tilt along the route and its location, as it does so successfully on the Pendolinos/Voyagers.
It also limits speeds to the EPS profile, also something I believe the APT lacked.

As far as I'm aware the tilt was purely accelerometer actuated, there were no lineside balises transmitting tilt information to the train.

There was no formal speed supervision either, but there was the C-APT - a speed advisory system.

This received the enhanced speed restrictions from track beacons and displayed this to the driver. A reduction in permissible speed was flashed up as a warning and required acknowledgement by the driver in a similar way to an AWS warning, failure to acknowledge a warning similarly resulting in an emergency brake application.

 

[mangyiscute]

That was a deliberate decision on the part of Virgin; they actually specified it to be similar in feel to being in an aircraft.

Yes one of my favourite things about planes are how cramped they feel and how small the windows are

 

[YourMum666]

was the c-apt some form of in cab signalling ?

 

[hexagon789]

was the c-apt some form of in cab signalling ?

Enhanced speed restriction read-out only. Conventional lineside signals with AWS applied as normal.

 

[YourMum666]

Enhanced speed restriction read-out only. Conventional lineside signals with AWS applied as normal.

ahh, that makes sense

 

[WesternLancer]

a lot of people complained about the pendos having this “claustrophobic feeling” was this the same issue present on the APT

No - the claustrophobia issue is the most striking difference to me. I only went on the APT south of Preston so would not really have experienced the 'full on' tilt effects on the WCML north of Preston, but what tilt I did experience didn't seem to have any negative impact on me motion wise.

But I have no real recollection of any sense of interior claustrophobia or sense of being cramped from that trip that I can recall at all. I suspect a combination of larger windows, lower seat backs and less densly packed seats all helped in that regard when comparing APT with Pendolino.

I keep meaning to go to Crewe Heritage Centre to re-visit their APT and see how it compares with my memory of that trip I took in, IIRC, 1984 or '85. I'm very pleased to have experienced it, just a shame we didn't press on north of Glasgow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was a deliberate decision on the part of Virgin; they actually specified it to be similar in feel to being in an aircraft.

Though the small windows are just what you get with a Pendolino when you squash it vertically for UK gauge.

The pictures I've seen of the APT make it look very cramped indeed, I believe it was a fair bit smaller as they didn't have a tilt authorisation system so had to make it so it wouldn't be out of gauge with conflicting adverse tilt anywhere on the WCML.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Though the small windows are just what you get with a Pendolino when you squash it vertically for UK gauge.

In my admittedly limited experience Continental Pendolinos are not much better. Well in advance of Pendolino introduction here I sampled an Italian ETR470 just from Schafhausen to Zürich Hbf and was immediately struck by how relatively cramped the interior was despite the Continental loading gauge. Smaller windows were part of the issue. By comparison a Eurostar doesn't feel quite so compromised despite also being a compressed mainland design.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my admittedly limited experience Continental Pendolinos are not much better. Well in advance of Pendolino introduction here I sampled an Italian ETR470 just from Schafhausen to Zürich Hbf and was immediately struck by how relatively cramped the interior was despite the Continental loading gauge. Smaller windows were part of the issue. By comparison a Eurostar doesn't feel quite so compromised despite also being a compressed mainland design.

If you compare a Euro Pendolino and a UK one the windows are just reduced in proportion to the lower height - basically it's the same body but squashed. It is just a small windowed design.

Euro Pendolinos have windows about the size of those on 80x - a bit better than UK Pendolinos but not exactly massive.

That said the New Pendolino used by SBB/FS (a different class than the one you mention and more resemblent of the UK ones) is a truly terrible design, with narrow seats and poor legroom. I'd prefer a UK one, particularly a refurb!

 

[Lucan]

Yes one of my favourite things about planes are how cramped they feel and how small the windows are

You are obviously not thinking like a marketing droid thinks. Planes are supposed to be cool, and trains are supposed to be old-fashioned. When the the present-day cramped seating layouts were introduced and compartments abolished, they were hyped as "airline style" like that was a good thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are obviously not thinking like a marketing droid thinks. Planes are supposed to be cool, and trains are supposed to be old-fashioned. When the the present-day cramped seating layouts were introduced and compartments abolished, they were hyped as "airline style" like that was a good thing.

Compartments aren't a good thing unless you have one to yourself. I fear an attack of the rose tinted specs...

 

[Devonian]

Part of the reason that the Pendolinos feel so cramped is also the position of the windows and thickness of window pillars, as much as their overall size: the APT had windows that came up to the base of the luggage racks, whilst the Pendolino's are lower, with a moulding curving from the windows up to the luggage racks and much wider pillars. The amount of glass above headrest height makes a huge difference to the perception of 'spaciousness' of a carriage: if your only sightline to the outside is a narrow field of vision between seats, it will feel more cramped than if you can see the outside world - or even just the sky - above the seatbacks along the length of the carriage. Low window tops and/or high seatbacks make for a claustrophobic feel.

It may be hard to imagine now, but in the late '90s long queues for stringent security checks, budget air travel with charges for basic functions and draconian baggage restrictions were not the image of air travel: the aviation industry still had an image of service and quality in comparison with "British Snail". Even Great Western Trains advertised "the service you'd get from an airline" as a positive point when they were "building the model railway". Virgin Atlantic had a distinctly 'fun' and 'glamorous' vibe compared to the old flag carriers, and higher quality than the charter airlines.

In that context, it's easy to see why making trains, and the service on them, more like planes might have seemed a perfectly logical step away from "British Snail"; but perhaps they should have reminded themselves of British Rail's own take on train vs plane...

 

[WesternLancer]

Part of the reason that the Pendolinos feel so cramped is also the position of the windows and thickness of window pillars, as much as their overall size: the APT had windows that came up to the base of the luggage racks, whilst the Pendolino's are lower, with a moulding curving from the windows up to the luggage racks and much wider pillars. The amount of glass above headrest height makes a huge difference to the perception of 'spaciousness' of a carriage: if your only sightline to the outside is a narrow field of vision between seats, it will feel more cramped than if you can see the outside world - or even just the sky - above the seatbacks along the length of the carriage. Low window tops and/or high seatbacks make for a claustrophobic feel.

It may be hard to imagine now, but in the late '90s long queues for stringent security checks, budget air travel with charges for basic functions and draconian baggage restrictions were not the image of air travel: the aviation industry still had an image of service and quality in comparison with "British Snail". Even Great Western Trains advertised "the service you'd get from an airline" as a positive point when they were "building the model railway". Virgin Atlantic had a distinctly 'fun' and 'glamorous' vibe compared to the old flag carriers, and higher quality than the charter airlines.

In that context, it's easy to see why making trains, and the service on them, more like planes might have seemed a perfectly logical step away from "British Snail"; but perhaps they should have reminded themselves of British Rail's own take on train vs plane...

V good post and excellent advert clip - I don't recall that from the period so great to see it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

V good post and excellent advert clip - I don't recall that from the period so great to see it.

Such a different era, when business travel was always in 1st (and 1st was priced so that was affordable to companies, as it remains in almost every other country the world over) and flying was premium, not cheap, so analogous to 1st rather than Standard!

 

[WesternLancer]

Such a different era, when business travel was always in 1st (and 1st was priced so that was affordable to companies, as it remains in almost every other country the world over) and flying was premium, not cheap, so analogous to 1st rather than Standard!

Yes, good points!
Tho the downside of that approach was a poor effort to fill off peak 1st class seats with a leisure priced product that could be set at fares to attract that market - apart from Weekend First of course, which I always, and often still do - regard as good value

 

[XAM2175]

In my admittedly limited experience Continental Pendolinos are not much better. Well in advance of Pendolino introduction here I sampled an Italian ETR470 just from Schafhausen to Zürich Hbf and was immediately struck by how relatively cramped the interior was despite the Continental loading gauge. Smaller windows were part of the issue. By comparison a Eurostar doesn't feel quite so compromised despite also being a compressed mainland design.

That said the New Pendolino used by SBB/FS (a different class than the one you mention and more resemblent of the UK ones) is a truly terrible design, with narrow seats and poor legroom. I'd prefer a UK one, particularly a refurb!

Yes, the RABe 503 / ETR 610 isn't much to be happy about, other than the reasonably-sized windows. The SBB-only ones (RABDe 500 / ICN) have the standard spartan SBB fit-out, but the windows are big and almost all the seats are in facing groups:

File:ICN-Vue Intérieure-2ème Classe Couloir.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[Flying Phil]

Here are a couple of pictures from the inside of the APT at Crewe...

 

[Helvellyn]

Here are a couple of pictures from the inside of the APT at Crewe...
View attachment 133294View attachment 133295

What I like is that it shows how the IC80 seats were designed with the sloped APT body profile in mind, something not entirely apparent when used in Mark 3Bs/4s (First Class) and Mk 2/2D/2F TSOs (the first for NSE refurbs and the latter two for FO conversions).

I wonder how much of a coincidence that the use of red and blue seat covers, albeit in tartan, reflected the early Mark 1s where Third Class moquette ised several red based designs and First Class several blue based ones?

 

[Flying Phil]

there was this explanation about the APT seat covering.

 

[Helvellyn]

View attachment 133314
there was this explanation about the APT seat covering.

I believe the blue tartan was Thomson Dress Blue and the red tartan was MacLaine of Lochbuie.

 

[D365]

Part of the reason that the Pendolinos feel so cramped is also the position of the windows and thickness of window pillars, as much as their overall size: the APT had windows that came up to the base of the luggage racks, whilst the Pendolino's are lower, with a moulding curving from the windows up to the luggage racks and much wider pillars. The amount of glass above headrest height makes a huge difference to the perception of 'spaciousness' of a carriage: if your only sightline to the outside is a narrow field of vision between seats, it will feel more cramped than if you can see the outside world - or even just the sky - above the seatbacks along the length of the carriage. Low window tops and/or high seatbacks make for a claustrophobic feel.

This seems to go some way to explaining why the Voyagers feel less claustrophobic, too.