How do BTP manage to cover the rail network?

[Stigy]

I would always urge people to call 999 when there is an immediate response required. For some reason, staff seem to think quite often that they must call the BTP’s urgent number when they need urgent assistance. BTP do have the obvious knowledge of the railway and it’s workings, but if you need police in an emergency, I’d personally cut out the middle man. BTP will still be deployed, but alongside the local police depending on the nature of the emergency.

 

[RT4038]

Trams in various places.



It was the Police force of the British Transport Commission.

But they never covered the municipal or BET Tramway systems. So probably only things like Grimsby-Immingham and Wisbech-Upwell etc.

Docks, Canals, Hotels, Road Service too. But they were all associated with the railway.

The BTP didn't cover BTC owned bus operations, which were owned through holding companies and operated like private companies.

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The BTP were very heavily involved in the security of freight loads in the past (at Depots and in transit), which is probably a comparatively minor task now.

 

[fgwrich]

Very short answer is they don't. The longer answer is that they will eventually arrive but are based at hubs in each region so it could be a 30-45 minute wait in certain more rural spots. So dependent on the issue, you (crew / control) have to do a dynamic risk assessment as to whether police attendance is absoutely required or perhaps - if the incident is on board - BTP could meet the train further down the line. Otherwise by the time you've called them, the incident may well be over. If it's a genuine emergency, its 999 and a call to Control eventually to advise the BTP who may get there just after the civils for specialist back up.

On busy nights at big hub stations (e.g. London terminals), the BTP resources can get tied up a) at another station, b) dealing with an arrest and subsequent paperwork, c) stretched with multiple incidents and they can't be reached. It's evidently frustrating, but the BTP isn't unlike the rest of police force in being under-resourced. I think they do a fairly good job given the resources they have - if they're on site they are quite helpful, it is just often that it can be a big 'if'.

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Yes they do. And they have to declare the incident "non-suspicious" (i.e deliberate action by the victim) before the railway can resume operations and ensure the scene is safe for running trains.

Unfortunately it is, and it isn't helped by the way the force is set up (4 Divisions split into some very large subdivisions). But the force does the best it can with both the resources and the budgets that it has. Inevitably, you will have areas where some coverage will be better than others (Think the TfL areas in and around London).

And yes, BTP will lead fatalities and deaths on the railway. Though CID can be used if the circumstances require it, most of the investigation work will be done by those officers on the ground (except for those who will be sent to deliver the message).

 

[Snow1964]

Some figures have been published by TfL of rate of police solving crimes
(from page 40 of attached which is from TfL Board committee)

During the current period the combined solved rate was 19 per cent for violence and public order recorded offences against our workforce – slightly lower than the previous 12-month period (21 per cent).

The solved rate varied by mode during the current period, with a solved rate of 18 per cent for bus-related offences, 21 per cent for LU, and 14 per cent for all other rail modes combined.

Doesn’t seem great that only 1 in 7 crimes against workforce for rail are being solved (or perhaps I am being unrealistic)

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s18019/sshrp-20220629-item05b-Appendix%201.pdf

So if these are figures for London (where there are lots of BTP officers) then there is good chance that in rural areas with sparse coverage very few crimes are being solved

 

[Robert Ambler]

Some figures have been published by TfL of rate of police solving crimes
(from page 40 of attached which is from TfL Board committee)



Doesn’t seem great that only 1 in 7 crimes against workforce for rail are being solved (or perhaps I am being unrealistic)

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s18019/sshrp-20220629-item05b-Appendix%201.pdf

So if these are figures for London (where there are lots of BTP officers) then there is good chance that in rural areas with sparse coverage very few crimes are being solved

I think on that basis if correct the BTP are doing rather well. That would seem to be considerably better than the national figure where charges are brought in only 7.8% of cases according to the latest statistics (and of course the numbers actually convicted will be lower than that).

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

BTP armed response officers have been the first armed officers on scene in several incidents in Glasgow city center Inc the hotel stabbing in 2020

 

[Ivor]

Very short answer is they don't. The longer answer is that they will eventually arrive but are based at hubs in each region so it could be a 30-45 minute wait in certain more rural spots. So dependent on the issue, you (crew / control) have to do a dynamic risk assessment as to whether police attendance is absoutely required or perhaps - if the incident is on board - BTP could meet the train further down the line. Otherwise by the time you've called them, the incident may well be over. If it's a genuine emergency, its 999 and a call to Control eventually to advise the BTP who may get there just after the civils for specialist back up.

This…..my experience of BTP & 999 is very poor, in 4.5 years I’ve had to call 3 times working solo (& I don’t call for help lightly) on one occasion in relation to me be assaulted.

999 response is “we don’t visit railway stations we will pass to BTP”

Once BTP visited (not the assault) some 4 hours later which was too late as 3 young builders who were passengers on my station at the time helped me with the problem otherwise I hate to think.

 

[6Gman]

Bit difficult to report fare evaders on our DOO services!
If we call BTP its usually REALLY needed
Sķegness really needs sawing off the coast..floating out to sea and used for atom bomb testing

Skegness is one of those lines on my bucket list that I really must tick off some time.

This Forum really isn't doing a great job of selling it though . . .

 

[Chucky]

How do the British Transport Police manage to cover the rail network with what I imagine are a small number of officers?

They don't. I've worked on the railway thirty years and in that time I can think of just one occasion when the BTP have actually turned up punctually and arrested a troublemaker - and that was probably 25 years ago. The rest of the time they either haven't shown up, or taken so long to show up that the trouble was over before they arrived. That's just my experience of course. Not knocking the police, I know they've been run into the ground just as much as every other public service.

 

[Edsmith]

This…..my experience of BTP & 999 is very poor, in 4.5 years I’ve had to call 3 times working solo (& I don’t call for help lightly) on one occasion in relation to me be assaulted.

999 response is “we don’t visit railway stations we will pass to BTP”

Once BTP visited (not the assault) some 4 hours later which was too late as 3 young builders who were passengers on my station at the time helped me with the problem otherwise I hate to think.

Surely all emergency services visit railway stations if necessary? I think normal practice is that if BTP can't get to an incident then local police will attend and pass the matter over to BTP later if necessary?

And shouldn't they be called British Railway Police? As I understand it they don't deal with bus related incidents.

 

[Ivor]

Surely all emergency services visit railway stations if necessary? I think normal practice is that if BTP can't get to an incident then local police will attend and pass the matter over to BTP later if necessary?

And shouldn't they be called British Railway Police? As I understand it they don't deal with bus related incidents.

I know they attend for example if someone has been hit by a train or similar but I can only refer to my BTP experience & on this thread looks as if a few echo similar.

I am sorry to say I’ve only had a very negative BTP experience to the point following a serious incident they didn’t come to my aid but they phoned me the following day & that only followed as I lodged a complaint. I politely told them I did not want to speak to them as I was that cheesed off & still nursing bruising from the incident that I desperately required help for.

Sorry I don’t have an answer why they are not named British Railway Police.

 

[omnicity4659]

Surely all emergency services visit railway stations if necessary? I think normal practice is that if BTP can't get to an incident then local police will attend and pass the matter over to BTP later if necessary?

And shouldn't they be called British Railway Police? As I understand it they don't deal with bus related incidents.

BTP used to be responsible for policing some ports.

 

[C J Snarzell]

BTP used to be responsible for policing some ports.

I am sure in Liverpool they have/had a dedicated Port Police that are totally separate from the BTP/Merseyside Police. There is a Mersey Tunnel Policing Team who are a non-Home Office force run by the City Council and the Merseytravel organisations. Their core role is responding to incidents in the tunnels (mainly traffic related).

Most UK ports are now served by a combination of Home Office Border Patrol staff, Customs & Excise and police officers from whichever force is responsible for the area of the port. Some smaller ports (like Heysham) don't necessarily have police officers based on site.

CJ

 

[traingeek97]

Generally speaking officers from other forces quite often end up being first on scene at BTP incidents if a BTP unit isn’t nearby and it requires an immediate response, however the case will be transferred to them as soon as possible. There was a murder investigation a few years ago that stayed with the Met, despite happening on BTP ground, due to the impact it would have on BTP’s fairly limited resources.

A lot of retrospective crime reports for offences such as theft, common assault etc end up being made to the non-BTP force in the first instance before being transferred.

 

[John Luxton]

BTP used to be responsible for policing some ports.

Yes and currently cover some Metros thus not entirely railway. Name is historical more than anything as they were created by the British Transport Commission by the amalgamation of the previous Big 4 railway police services. Also covered the canals until 1962 according to their Wikipedia entry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2022 ==

I am sure in Liverpool they have/had a dedicated Port Police that are totally separate from the BTP/Merseyside Police. There is a Mersey Tunnel Policing Team who are a non-Home Office force run by the City Council and the Merseytravel organisations. Their core role is responding to incidents in the tunnels (mainly traffic related).

Most UK ports are now served by a combination of Home Office Border Patrol staff, Customs & Excise and police officers from whichever force is responsible for the area of the port. Some smaller ports (like Heysham) don't necessarily have police officers based on site.

CJ

Yes Liverpool has a dedicated Port Police now operated by Peel Ports successors to the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company. However, it appears to have been downsized in recent years with security staff taking over roles on the port gates which once were staffed by Port Police. They maintain a base at the Seaforth HQ and issue ISPS dock passes from their police station there. The Mersey Tunnel Police are a bit of an anomaly. I did read something once that they are paid considerably less than members of other police services. On subject of specialist police forces Liverpool Anglican Cathedral also has its own police force anlong with York, Canterbury and Chester Cathedrals.

 

[richard1976]

What happens if there is an incident on the Isle of Wight, do the BTP have to send officers over from the mainland?

 

[C J Snarzell]

Yes and currently cover some Metros thus not entirely railway. Name is historical more than anything as they were created by the British Transport Commission by the amalgamation of the previous Big 4 railway police services. Also covered the canals until 1962 according to their Wikipedia entry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2022 ==


Yes Liverpool has a dedicated Port Police now operated by Peel Ports successors to the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company. However, it appears to have been downsized in recent years with security staff taking over roles on the port gates which once were staffed by Port Police. They maintain a base at the Seaforth HQ and issue ISPS dock passes from their police station there. The Mersey Tunnel Police are a bit of an anomaly. I did read something once that they are paid considerably less than members of other police services. On subject of specialist police forces Liverpool Anglican Cathedral also has its own police force anlong with York, Canterbury and Chester Cathedrals.

The Mersey Tunnel police constables are on a salary of around 32k-35k, so not bad in comparison to a top increment Home Office police constable who is on £41k (new bobbies start on 26k after initial training). The tunnel bobbies don't deal with nowhere near as much of society's crap as a traditional beat/response officer would do, so at least the salary seems understandable.

CJ

 

[fgwrich]

Yes and currently cover some Metros thus not entirely railway. Name is historical more than anything as they were created by the British Transport Commission by the amalgamation of the previous Big 4 railway police services. Also covered the canals until 1962 according to their Wikipedia entry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2022 ==

The Metro one is an interesting point, as BTP covers only a handful across the uk:

BTP Covered Metros:
Midland Metro
Croydon Tramlink (though given the nature of the area, the MET would likely be first responders)
London Underground / Docklands Light Railway / Overground / Crossrail.
Strathclyde Subway
Merseyrail

Non BTP Covered Metros and Railways:
Tyne and Wear - Covered by a dedicated unit in Northumbria Police.
Metrolink - Covered by the Transport Unit in Greater Manchester Police.
Edinburgh Trams - Covered I believe by Police Scotland.
Preserved Railways also fall under the non BTP side of things due to the nature of the funding of the BTP.

The BTP certainly has a unique way of being funded, and coverage of who covers what is can largely come down to which local PTE is in charge + what or who the DfT wants. The BTP will in affect, have to bid if it wants to provide security and Policing and can be up against a Home Office Force with a specialist unit or even private companies (though thankfully this isn't often used - though TFL does use the Land Sheriffs to provide security across much of Crossrail - and from experience they can be a bit of a pain in the when dealing with an incident!). Thankfully, with the funding being provided through the railway, the BTP managed to avoid most of the major cutbacks imposed onto the Home Office forces by our wonderful government a few years back.

 

[winks]

They used to look after docks and canals many years ago. Think they lost jurisdiction over the docks in the 80s and the canals in the 60s. The force badge still has blue wavy lines representing water on it.

View attachment 112974
Image - BTP crest

BTP responsible for policing Gatwick too, even now

 

[omnicity4659]

The Metro one is an interesting point, as BTP covers only a handful across the uk:

Non BTP Covered Metros and Railways:
Tyne and Wear - Covered by a dedicated unit in Northumbria Police.

Also covered by BTP between Pelaw and South Hylton with it being on Network Rail metals.

 

[headshot119]

Metrolink - Covered by the Transport Unit in Greater Manchester Police.

BTP will respond between Timperley & Altrincham as that's NR metals. Also not unusual to find them down at Piccadilly metrolink, and I'd resume though don't know first hand Victoria is the same.

 

[HuggyB87]

BTP have a map showing the breakdown of "force areas" here: https://www.btp.police.uk/SysSiteAs...-content/btp/about-us/btp-map-of-stations.pdf

Based on my personal experience working with BTP Officers, night time Response Officers in the Pennine C Division and based out of Liverpool, have known to be responsible for responding to incidents across the entire divisional area

 

[Wolfie]

BTP responsible for policing Gatwick too, even now

You better tell Sussex Police that as they seem to beg to differ.....

 

[bramling]

Skegness is one of those lines on my bucket list that I really must tick off some time.

This Forum really isn't doing a great job of selling it though . . .

Do it on a cold cloudy winter weekday and it will be okay!

 

[richard1976]

Is it the BTP responsibility to respond to incidents onboard rail replacement bus services ?

 

[omnicity4659]

Is it the BTP responsibility to respond to incidents onboard rail replacement bus services ?

No, it would be local police as it wouldn't be on railway property.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Is it the BTP responsibility to respond to incidents onboard rail replacement bus services ?

Generally - No. If a RR coach driver is assaulted outside a train station (at a pick up point car park) this would generally fall under BTP responsibility. However, if the poor driver was assaulted out on their RR route, then this would invariably be dealt with by the local Home Office force responsible for that area.

CJ

 

[richard1976]

I know the regular police deal with Sheffield Supertram but what happend on there Tram/Train if something happens when running on network rail tracks or on the platforms at Rotherham Central station or Parkgate Station (both owned by Network Rail)

 

[buscontroller]

I work as a controller for rail replacement. Around 2016 when we had Blackpool to Preston. There was bus that had a window put in on a road in Blackpool. Chatting to BTP at Blackpool North I was told by them yes, they would be happy to help to flood area to find the kids. as the service was run for Northern it counted as Railway business, they also took statement off bus driver. About 6 weeks ago I was also hit by a passenger at Luton and I had BTP attend the bus stop.

But has a rule you would call 999 unless BTP was onsite. BTP have no powers unless a crime is towards railway business or they act to stop a crime as it happens or they been invited to help by local police force. As they are a private police force funded by railways same as The Civil Nuclear Constabulary.

​

 

[uglymonkey]

At Kings Cross, I wanted to find BTP to report my laptop being nicked, that I knew who did it and had " eyes on them" , No BTP at Kings Cross or St Pancreas. In the end Ticket window person gave me a phone number ( recorded message). I rang and left a message ( voice mail) and an officer rang me back 2 days later for a crime number. I shudder what would happen if you were in real distress on a train or a station ( apart from the general public) you are on your own.