How do BTP manage to cover the rail network?

[Gathursty]

How do the British Transport Police manage to cover the rail network with what I imagine are a small number of officers?
Do they interwork with other forces if for example a fight kicked off on the train in Dolau and the nearest BTP was in Shrewsbury but there was a rural patrol nearby?

Otherwise a knowledge thread on the BTP as I only tend to see 3 or 4 of them walking around Manchester Piccadilly. Wigan's BTP office tends to be shut when I've been around.

Not a whinge thread. I know police are woefully underresourced.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Generally no they won’t refer to other forces and other forces generally won’t get involved, due to what they regard as specialist knowledge.; they will however co-operate with relevant investigations.

That said I have known of several instances where local forces have been called in and responded. One in particular when a fare dodger complained I was perving on him when he failed to lock the toilet door. He threatened me with the police so given his age I made the call myself and sure enough and to my relief two officers from North Yorkshire Police were duly waiting for the train at Thirsk. They quickly realised I was merely carrying out my duties and this kid was trying it on for a free ride. He tried to use his mum for defence but when she showed up much to the officers amusement she also shot him down!

On another hand after a minor food fight a significant chunk of Clevelands bobbies showed up at Yarm and arrested and removed from the train a surprising number of people. Some officers stayed on the train and sadly from their behaviour it looked like they were deliberately antagonising the people still on the train and sure enough by Thornaby more officers, dogs and vans were waiting and further arrests made. What really disappointed me was that while I was patrolling the train no trouble had occurred apart from the chocolate muffin that got thrown around a jubilant carriage, and no one thought to inform the train conductor I.e me what what was actually going on when police showed up, and none of the officers sought me out or made any attempt to bring me up to speed on what was going on or why.

 

[C J Snarzell]

How do the British Transport Police manage to cover the rail network with what I imagine are a small number of officers?
Do they interwork with other forces if for example a fight kicked off on the train in Dolau and the nearest BTP was in Shrewsbury but there was a rural patrol nearby?

Otherwise a knowledge thread on the BTP as I only tend to see 3 or 4 of them walking around Manchester Piccadilly. Wigan's BTP office tends to be shut when I've been around.

Not a whinge thread. I know police are woefully underresourced.

Being an ex-police officer myself with a Home Office force, the answer to your question is that alot of rail incidents tend to be dealt with by non-BTP police officers.

Take the Formby assault recently - more than likely Merseyside Police officers will have attended initially via a 999 call. The crime report and statements will then be followed up by BTP as it's in their juristiction.

I used to respond to quite a few concern for welfare incidents on the railway, with potentially vulnerable people. We would never venture anywhere near the track for Health & Safety reasons. The police communication room would advise us the nearest BTP officers were at Liverpool Lime Street. Invariably, we would probably resolve the incident ourselves and update the BTP so they would not need to attend.

CJ

 

[DelayRepay]

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force? If, say, someone called 999 due to a fight across the road from a railway station with a BTP presence, is it likely BTP would be asked to deal with it until other officers arrived?

 

[bengley]

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force? If, say, someone called 999 due to a fight across the road from a railway station with a BTP presence, is it likely BTP would be asked to deal with it until other officers arrived?

Yes, very likely.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force? If, say, someone called 999 due to a fight across the road from a railway station with a BTP presence, is it likely BTP would be asked to deal with it until other officers arrived?

Definately - the BTP will always lend a hand where possible, but as I say their thin blue line is very thin indeed.

CJ

 

[Dunnideer]

From speaking to officers it’s not ususual for them to be driving on blue lights and sirens for up to 45 minutes to get to an incident, which must be pretty stressful. I’ve had officers come from far and wide to attend fatalities before and there can sometimes be a long wait for forensic scene of crime officers on the odd occasion they are needed if they’re at the other end of the patch or out on another job at the time. 99% of the BTP officers I’ve worked with have been really decent people and dedicated to their job and the railway, the problem is that they’re so under resourced.

 

[Butts]

Who pays for BTP - Network Rail ?

 

[westerndave]

From speaking to officers it’s not ususual for them to be driving on blue lights and sirens for up to 45 minutes to get to an incident, which must be pretty stressful. I’ve had officers come from far and wide to attend fatalities before and there can sometimes be a long wait for forensic scene of crime officers on the odd occasion they are needed if they’re at the other end of the patch or out on another job at the time. 99% of the BTP officers I’ve worked with have been really decent people and dedicated to their job and the railway, the problem is that they’re so under resourced.

Yes they are are resourced for sure and very city centric (particularly London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham) they rely on local forces to respond a lot because they are spread so thinly and often where an immediate response is required it is by far the quickest solution to ask the local force for assistance.

They are predominantly funded by the train companies and like any organisation or business you deeply your resources where they can be best utilised and that’s always going to be city centre, large public events like football and music events.

 

[Joosh]

Ex control room dispatcher here for a home office force. BTP outside of london do really struggle to cover their immediate jobs mostly due to lack of emergency response drivers and the distances that have to be traveled by them to jobs (especially outside london) and a lack of officers in general. When I was in my force we would help them as much as we could when they asked however we could not send our officers lineside without either a RIO or btp officer being on scene for their own safety and we would always liaise with NR to make them aware. In regards to them helping us yes I've had the whole of a BTP office tip out and offer up assistance for emergency buttons on a friday night at club kickout times as well as helping us with a few other things including a cow that got onto a road. They usually have one of their officers on the area they are in listening to the local force channel anyway so they call up as and when they can and that way if we are helping them with a job they can hear the updates from scene. Hope that helps.

 

[westerndave]

From speaking to officers it’s not ususual for them to be driving on blue lights and sirens for up to 45 minutes to get to an incident, which must be pretty stressful. I’ve had officers come from far and wide to attend fatalities before and there can sometimes be a long wait for forensic scene of crime officers on the odd occasion they are needed if they’re at the other end of the patch or out on another job at the time. 99% of the BTP officers I’ve worked with have been really decent people and dedicated to their job and the railway, the problem is that they’re so under resourced.

Specialist units can run for much longer than that, not unknown for dog units to run on immediate response for 2 hours or more and often be stood down well into the “run”

 

[Stigy]

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force? If, say, someone called 999 due to a fight across the road from a railway station with a BTP presence, is it likely BTP would be asked to deal with it until other officers arrived?

Generally they’ll get involved if they witness it (obviously), but won’t be deployed via their control room unless the home office force specifically call up or have a local agreement with certain BTP hubs. Some BTP Officers will keep a radio tuned to the local home office force area if they’re static at a station as it’s generally good practice.

If it’s a 999 call and it’s not on railway properly, the call handler won’t consider BTP unless they know the area and where BTP are likely to be (for example if the informant states this is right opposite the railway station).

 

[transportphoto]

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force?

A prime example of this being tweeted just the other day by a BTP local account for Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire:

Late last night officers responded to an urgent assistance in St Albans town centre, called up by our @HertsPolice colleagues.

Multiple arrests were made after a large disorder.

#OneFamily #OneTeam #CodeZero

I’ve also previously called BTP for a job not within their jurisdiction but that is likely to have an impact upon the railway (person threatening to jump from road bridge onto railway) to which they have turned out immediately to.

On the flip side, I’ve also called BTP for a disorder at a train station for which HO force turned out to - BTP were running a significant (in comparison) distance from a location within the neighbouring county on an Immediate response.

 

[Mojo]

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force? If, say, someone called 999 due to a fight across the road from a railway station with a BTP presence, is it likely BTP would be asked to deal with it until other officers arrived?

Outside of London, local BTP officers will often be listening to the local police radio channel on the handset fitted in the car for joint situational awareness. This allows them to respond accordingly as well as be on the lookout for instance where someone has absconded from them and may be going onto the railway.

 

[the sniper]

From speaking to officers it’s not ususual for them to be driving on blue lights and sirens for up to 45 minutes to get to an incident, which must be pretty stressful. I’ve had officers come from far and wide to attend fatalities before and there can sometimes be a long wait for forensic scene of crime officers on the odd occasion they are needed if they’re at the other end of the patch or out on another job at the time.

Specialist units can run for much longer than that, not unknown for dog units to run on immediate response for 2 hours or more and often be stood down well into the “run”

Hence why I was amused to see recently that the powers that be have stated that BTP intends to move to an entirely electric fleet by 2025... Intending to beat the Government target for Police of 2027.

Maybe things have changed, but out in the regions, multiple, back to back 50 mile immediate grade calls were not uncommon. At the few 24 hour stations, even more so and further. I'd like to think that this is a DfT set target, as that'd at least explain the complete ignorance of the way the BTP fleet is used outside of London, but it probably is an internal decision. That's without even starting on how chargers are going to be fitted/managed at some stations.

Unless a lot more BTP stations are going to be opened and/or fully manned by 2025, 24 hours a day, it ain't going to be so much of a Force on the move anymore.

 

[LowLevel]

I have tended to find that for 999 calls where there is an immediate risk of harm IE fights, actual violence, unstable individuals at risk of self harm or being aggressive etc the local force will come out to help, sometimes surprisingly quickly. I once intervened where one of the local ferals was threatening to kill a contract gateline assistant who had had his ticket barrier smashed and was unwise enough to get caught with this scummer between him and his refuge.

I initially jumped in, followed shortly afterwards by my driver when he heard the commotion, and between us we herded said lad into the front cab of the train and called 999. The operator said she would have someone there immediately and as it happens within 5 minutes a large group of football fans had thrown the bloke out of the train where he was attempted to kick the cab door down (against my size 11 boot, wasn't going to happen) just in time for 2 of Cheshire's finest to flatten him. BTP appeared about 15 minutes later and took over.

Naturally, of course, known to police, list of convictions as long as your arm, just another one to wallpaper his taxpayer funded accommodation with.

What doesn't help is traincrew screwing trains down in stupid places demanding assistance to remove uncooperative fare evaders. Much better in these modern times to film them on a body cam if you're so inclined and then if they're at it regularly they'll eventually have it catch up with them if it's continually reported - patterns of behaviour build up and an organised sting can occur and mop up any other problems they happen to come across in the mean time.

For us, I know where our BTP stations are and for large chunks of the network you're very much on your own, though again the local forces know that and will turn out if need be - Skegness is a good example where the local bobbies get sent out several times a week to deal with undesirables at the station, as well as things like people who've absconded from nursing homes who head there because of where it is.

 

[ungreat]

I have tended to find that for 999 calls where there is an immediate risk of harm IE fights, actual violence, unstable individuals at risk of self harm or being aggressive etc the local force will come out to help, sometimes surprisingly quickly. I once intervened where one of the local ferals was threatening to kill a contract gateline assistant who had had his ticket barrier smashed and was unwise enough to get caught with this scummer between him and his refuge.

I initially jumped in, followed shortly afterwards by my driver when he heard the commotion, and between us we herded said lad into the front cab of the train and called 999. The operator said she would have someone there immediately and as it happens within 5 minutes a large group of football fans had thrown the bloke out of the train where he was attempted to kick the cab door down (against my size 11 boot, wasn't going to happen) just in time for 2 of Cheshire's finest to flatten him. BTP appeared about 15 minutes later and took over.

Naturally, of course, known to police, list of convictions as long as your arm, just another one to wallpaper his taxpayer funded accommodation with.

What doesn't help is traincrew screwing trains down in stupid places demanding assistance to remove uncooperative fare evaders. Much better in these modern times to film them on a body cam if you're so inclined and then if they're at it regularly they'll eventually have it catch up with them if it's continually reported - patterns of behaviour build up and an organised sting can occur and mop up any other problems they happen to come across in the mean time.

For us, I know where our BTP stations are and for large chunks of the network you're very much on your own, though again the local forces know that and will turn out if need be - Skegness is a good example where the local bobbies get sent out several times a week to deal with undesirables at the station, as well as things like people who've absconded from nursing homes who head there because of where it is.

Bit difficult to report fare evaders on our DOO services!
If we call BTP its usually REALLY needed
Sķegness really needs sawing off the coast..floating out to sea and used for atom bomb testing

 

[LowLevel]

Bit difficult to report fare evaders on our DOO services!
If we call BTP its usually REALLY needed
Sķegness really needs sawing off the coast..floating out to sea and used for atom bomb testing

My standard policy nowadays is to use 61016 for anything not "emergency" (youths being unpleasant on stations, uncooperative fare evaders where I'm passing through a station with a police station in it etc) and 999 for anything critical and let the police work it out amongst themselves what to do about it. For some specific incidents we do have direct numbers for the BTP stations themselves (antisocial behaviour at particular locations for example) but obviously they can only answer the phone if they're there.

 

[muz379]

I have had civil police come out to a fight on a train following a 999 call .

Can I ask a related question - how common is it for BTP officers assist the local Home Office force? If, say, someone called 999 due to a fight across the road from a railway station with a BTP presence, is it likely BTP would be asked to deal with it until other officers arrived?

I am sure a BTP officer was injured during the 2017 london bridge terror attack having been alerted to the attack whilst patrolling a station

 

[John Luxton]

As a matter of related interest two Merseyrail stations have a police station on site - Aughton - Lancashire Constabulary and Ainsdale - Merseyside.

 

[westerndave]

I have had civil police come out to a fight on a train following a 999 call .

I am sure a BTP officer was injured during the 2017 london bridge terror attack having been alerted to the attack whilst patrolling a station

There was one, he was off duty at the time

 

[thenorthern]

As others have said the local territorial police normally police a lot of the network. They sometime board trains randomly to keep a visible presence.

One thing that the British Transport Police always seem to investigate no matter where it happens is fatalities. I assume this is because the BTP has officers specially trained in this area.

 

[pdq]

Do BTP cover other modes of transport (buses, coaches, air, ferries) or just railway? If just railway, is there an historical reason why they were not named the British Railway Police?

 

[the sniper]

Do BTP cover other modes of transport (buses, coaches, air, ferries) or just railway?

Trams in various places.

If just railway, is there an historical reason why they were not named the British Railway Police?

It was the Police force of the British Transport Commission.

 

[pdq]

Trams in various places.



It was the Police force of the British Transport Commission.

Didn't think of trams. So it's really only railed transport that they look after then? Do they cover the London Underground or is that the Met? What about other underground systems?

Was the British Transport Commission multi modal or just rail?

 

[Dunnideer]

They used to look after docks and canals many years ago. Think they lost jurisdiction over the docks in the 80s and the canals in the 60s. The force badge still has blue wavy lines representing water on it.


Image - BTP crest

 

[Mojo]

Didn't think of trams. So it's really only railed transport that they look after then? Do they cover the London Underground or is that the Met? What about other underground systems?

Of non-National Rail systems in London BTP cover the Underground, DLR, Cable Car, and London Trams.

Outside of London they are responsible for West Midlands Metro, Glasgow Subway and Tyne/Wear Metro (only between the junction just to the east of Fellgate and North Hylton which is Network Rail infrastructure, the rest is Northumbria Police).

 

[the sniper]

Was the British Transport Commission multi modal or just rail?

Docks, Canals, Hotels, Road Service too. But they were all associated with the railway.

 

[357]

From my experience on stations, response time for BTP was normally around the 2 hour mark. This was in London.

If local police refused to respond we would not bother. Local police would only respond if it was something "interesting".

When TfL took over, response times became much better.

 

[Horizon22]

Very short answer is they don't. The longer answer is that they will eventually arrive but are based at hubs in each region so it could be a 30-45 minute wait in certain more rural spots. So dependent on the issue, you (crew / control) have to do a dynamic risk assessment as to whether police attendance is absoutely required or perhaps - if the incident is on board - BTP could meet the train further down the line. Otherwise by the time you've called them, the incident may well be over. If it's a genuine emergency, its 999 and a call to Control eventually to advise the BTP who may get there just after the civils for specialist back up.

On busy nights at big hub stations (e.g. London terminals), the BTP resources can get tied up a) at another station, b) dealing with an arrest and subsequent paperwork, c) stretched with multiple incidents and they can't be reached. It's evidently frustrating, but the BTP isn't unlike the rest of police force in being under-resourced. I think they do a fairly good job given the resources they have - if they're on site they are quite helpful, it is just often that it can be a big 'if'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Apr 2022 ==

One thing that the British Transport Police always seem to investigate no matter where it happens is fatalities. I assume this is because the BTP has officers specially trained in this area.

Yes they do. And they have to declare the incident "non-suspicious" (i.e deliberate action by the victim) before the railway can resume operations and ensure the scene is safe for running trains.