How do you check the I.D of any rail employee checking your tickets?

[Watershed]

Do you phone up Tesco HQ and enquire at the checkout if the cashier is genuine in case they haven’t tampered with the card machine?

To be fair, I don't think this is an accurate comparison. You expect to find cashiers at the checkout. And Tesco would immediately spot someone who set up their own card machine at the tills.

Meanwhile over on the railway, there is no guarantee of having a ticket check on any given journey. And the likelihood of encountering an RPI is very low.

 

[spag23]

Do you phone up Tesco HQ and enquire at the checkout if the cashier is genuine in case they haven’t tampered with the card machine?

Do you phone up the management of the restaurant you’re dining at after receiving the chef’s name to ensure the cook holds the appropriate qualifications?

This thread just seems daft and is making a rather tall mountain over a tiny molehill.

The number of people who impersonate rail staff will be (very near, if not) zero and the issue certainly doesn’t justify a dedicated phone line.

At most, a reminder to RPI’s that they must present ID when requested. A lot of RPI’s work in teams, and if not, ask the guard or the driver.

To be fair, the OP's concern was about placing his credit card on a PIN-free payment-taking device presented by someone possibly un-uniformed &/or unwilling to provide ID. Not unreasonable IMHO.
I mostly use Thameslink. There is no guard, and the driver could be 12 crowded carriages away, and even then, you'd have to wait till the next stop to get to his cab. And would he know what other staff are on the train anyway? To keep to the timetable, he'd probably just shut the doors and leave you at the station!
Similarly a phone line is impractical for the reasons given by others; not to mention gaps in the network etc.
I'd be happy with a genuine-looking ID, along with a willingness to show it, perhaps unprompted.

 

[Vespa]

A friend is very clued up on the law, and when confronted with an RPI who didn't want to show his ID, he immediately cautioned him. My friend read him the standard PACE caution, then informed him that he would be taking a statement from him about why he didn't show his ID when requested to do so.

The RPI went, in a nutshell, absolutely beserk. He threatened my friend with prison and all the rest of it, and it was all written down and noted. After the RPI came to his senses and realised that my friend was making meticulous notes, he backed down and offered to let it go. My friend, smelling blood this point, told him that it had gone too far for that, and that he wanted him to check and sign the notes so that further action could be taken. The RPI stormed off, but my friend then went and obtained a copy of the CCTV while informing the TOC that he was taking the matter further.

A week later, he got a phone call from a lawyer at the TOC, asking him to drop it and that they would offer adequate compensation for the distress caused. The adequate compensation turned out to be a free season ticket for a year, which tells you just how much he had them spooked.

A passenger is quite within their right to check the ID and verify it by any means necessary.

I would have done exactly the same even better record him on the phone.

"I must caution you that I'm recording you for evidence purposes, it may harm your defence if you don't mention something that you may later rely on, also anything you do say will be recorded and used against you"

Schadenfruede is a wonderful thing, I'm not easily imtimidated.

 

[ComUtoR]

He's shown me an ID identifying him as Joe Bloggs, with a reference number of 123456,

My TOC ID has no reference number.

but I'm not sure of it's authenticity. Please could you advise me whether this is a valid ID", and they were to tell me either "yes, that's legit" or "no, there's no such ID", I'd be able to form a judgement about whether to dig my heels in or follow up.

But that's the same fantasy sense of security. If anyone wanted to carry out a scam all, they would need is any name of someone at the company and your ID check would confirm their "identity'

The rest has already been explained. There isn't any magic system to confirms someone's identity. Access to employee details is limited and protected.

It's just as dangerous to keep leading people to believe this false sense of security. We need to give people the correct information to help prevent them being scammed. Not encouraging them to believe in the blindingly obvious loopholes in security.

 

[35B]

My TOC ID has no reference number.



But that's the same fantasy sense of security. If anyone wanted to carry out a scam all, they would need is any name of someone at the company and your ID check would confirm their "identity'

The rest has already been explained. There isn't any magic system to confirms someone's identity. Access to employee details is limited and protected.

It's just as dangerous to keep leading people to believe this false sense of security. We need to give people the correct information to help prevent them being scammed. Not encouraging them to believe in the blindingly obvious loopholes in security.

None of what I’ve suggested would touch the sides of GDPR - unless of course you are suggesting that the information on the ID card would in itself breach GDPR were a member of the public to see it.

More to the point, the purpose of my scenario was to illustrate how it might be possible to corroborate an ID when presented if someone were concerned.

The heart of the issue is however the willingness of staff representing a company to prove their legitimacy when approaching a member of the public, so that both understand the others status. Sort that out, and the question of authentication falls right away again.

 

[Bald Rick]

I spy numerous people on this thread who've never had a card number cloned and used. Card fraud very much still exists. Being suspicious is never a bad idea when paying by card.

I‘ve had cards cloned more times than I can remember. None of them by someone in a TOC uniform, and obviously performing the role of a conductor, train manager or RPI.

 

[ComUtoR]

The heart of the issue is however the willingness of staff representing a company to prove their legitimacy when approaching a member of the public,

It's not possible. I have no way whatsoever of proving I'm a legitimate member of TOC staff. My proof is entirely reliant on the member of public believing I'm legit.

so that both understand the others status. Sort that out, and the question of authentication falls right away again.

I can't prove who I am and you can't check it.

Even if I showed you my SCWID card I doubt you would know what to look for, let alone be able to contact the ORR to verify it.

By convincing yourself that you can check my ID or because I show you something I could easily print out from my home computer. Means that you have already been scammed. All the heavy lifting has been done.

Please send me an Amazon voucher code for £20 and I'll happily send you all the security features you need to check on my TOC ID and I will also give you the contact name and number of someone who could genuinely access any company employee details.

Fee free to check my posting history. That will confirm I am a genuine TOC employee with access to such data.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair, the OP's concern was about placing his credit card on a PIN-free payment-taking device presented by someone possibly un-uniformed &/or unwilling to provide ID. Not unreasonable IMHO.

No suggestion they weren't uniformed and the OP said they didn't even ask for ID.

This is a bonkers thread. Do people really live their lives suspecting everyone else's motives?

There are simply some active imaginations here. In real life almost nobody suspects the RPI in front of them has:

- bought the uniform off eBay
- bought a card reader and set up a merchant account with the bank, or has card skimming software installed
- is literally on a train with hundreds of people
- etc etc

It's a very inefficient scam. Nobody deciding "right, let's make some money" who can access those sorts of things is going to do this.

And as for the people ringing up the TOC, how do you know the person answering the phone hasn't diverted calls and answers them at home, how do you know the TOC hasn't also been scammed, how do you know blah blah blah.

 

[muz379]

In some instances TOC ID's will just be the toc logo/name , a fairly old picture of the card holder , a name and indication that the holder is eligible for 1st/standard comp travel .

Not exactly the super secure ID people are imagining .

 

[Vespa]

It comes down more about the TOC "staff attitude test" toward customers, if they willingly show their ID then they're most certainly genuine, if they refuse and get cagey even making up some rules up to and including threats of prison for daring to question, definitely got something to hide.

In my job my lie detector is constantly switched on with a nose for bullpoo factor.

 

[skyhigh]

It comes down more about the TOC "staff attitude test" toward customers, if they willingly show their ID then they're most certainly genuine

But surely that's what a fraudster with a fake pass would do? Confidently flash their false pass.

In my job my lie detector is constantly switched on with a nose for bullpoo factor.

Out of interest, what job is that?

 

[Vespa]

But surely that's what a fraudster with a fake pass would do? Confidently flash their false pass.

Out of interest, what job is that?

Subject to "attitude test" even fraudsters have a "tell" about them, so you know when you see one.

*Security related work

 

[35B]

It's not possible. I have no way whatsoever of proving I'm a legitimate member of TOC staff. My proof is entirely reliant on the member of public believing I'm legit.



I can't prove who I am and you can't check it.

Even if I showed you my SCWID card I doubt you would know what to look for, let alone be able to contact the ORR to verify it.

By convincing yourself that you can check my ID or because I show you something I could easily print out from my home computer. Means that you have already been scammed. All the heavy lifting has been done.

Please send me an Amazon voucher code for £20 and I'll happily send you all the security features you need to check on my TOC ID and I will also give you the contact name and number of someone who could genuinely access any company employee details.

Fee free to check my posting history. That will confirm I am a genuine TOC employee with access to such data.

All issues that the utilities industry have faced and found ways through in response to crime. Which started with recognising an issue and getting their staff to routinely show ID.

If I’m checking for this purpose, I don’t need to prove it’s you - I need to corroborate that the ID you present me with is one that is appropriate for the function and location.

That’s not foolproof, but it plugs a significant hole well enough to mitigate risk - risk that is changed by the use of contactless cards.

 

[muz379]

It comes down more about the TOC "staff attitude test" toward customers, if they willingly show their ID then they're most certainly genuine, if they refuse and get cagey even making up some rules up to and including threats of prison for daring to question, definitely got something to hide.

confidence fraudsters will in many cases pass the staff attitude test and have a fake ID to flash

 

[Haywain]

confidence fraudsters will in many cases pass the staff attitude test and have a fake ID to flash

They will also be much easier to apprehend and prosecute, which is why it doesn’t happen.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Had my ticket checked by two people on Gatwick Express today- both paper and oyster checks. No uniform, no branded hi-vis, no GTR ID (in fact one was wearing a London Overground lanyard) and as such no apparent ability under 18.1 of NRCOT for the inspections. Upon challenging, they refused to provide any authority for the checking of tickets.

 

[spag23]

Had my ticket checked by two people on Gatwick Express today- both paper and oyster checks. No uniform, no branded hi-vis, no GTR ID (in fact one was wearing a London Overground lanyard) and as such no apparent ability under 18.1 of NRCOT for the inspections. Upon challenging, they refused to provide any authority for the checking of tickets.

Whether they were scammers or awkward RPIs, this worrying account rather undermines other members' insistence that neither category exists!
But then what happened? Did they still insist on everyone presenting their tickets/cards? Or did they PF any refuseniks? Or did they just scarper? If the latter, have you reported this incident?

 

[zwk500]

Had my ticket checked by two people on Gatwick Express today- both paper and oyster checks. No uniform, no branded hi-vis, no GTR ID (in fact one was wearing a London Overground lanyard) and as such no apparent ability under 18.1 of NRCOT for the inspections. Upon challenging, they refused to provide any authority for the checking of tickets.

After being refused, did you then present your ticket, oyster card or contactless card. If so, why? If not, what did they do?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

But then what happened? Did they still insist on everyone presenting their tickets/cards? Or did they PF any refuseniks? Or did they just scarper? If the latter, have you reported this incident?

If so, why?

Everybody in my immediate vicinity, including myself, showed tickets and presented tickets without hesitation. Natural muscle memory at seeing an official-looking person with confidence asking for tickets and passes, whilst also wielding a RID. From what I gather, they had no ticket issuing or penalty fare/prosecution means. I challenged them shortly after the check, and this is when they refused to provide any rail staff identification. They were reported to the Twitter account and I intend to write a formal complaint regarding this. A BTP report was considered at the time.

Upon completion of my journey, I spoke to a uniformed RPI. They confirmed that they were legitimate persons, however they also expressed concerns at the legality. According to the RPIs, they were people carrying out surveys regarding ticketless travel.

 

[jfollows]

According to the RPIs, they were people carrying out surveys regarding ticketless travel.

Under which case, as I understand it, they have no right to demand that passengers present their tickets and the passengers have no requirement to show them. So please make your formal complaint!

 

[Undiscovered]

Upon completion of my journey, I spoke to a uniformed RPI. They confirmed that they were legitimate persons, however they also expressed concerns at the legality. According to the RPIs, they were people carrying out surveys regarding ticketless travel.

The surveyors are instructed to identify themselves to the Guard before boarding, and are also issued with a letter of authorisation from the TOC concerned, and should show this when challenged.

The last we had of those was about a month back around our neck of the woods.

 

[flythetube]

Ticketless Travel Surveyors will wear photo ID which includes relevant TOC logo’s. They will, depending on the TOC carry a letter of authority with a named contact and phone number to verify the bonafides of said surveyor.

Surveyors will have tablets loaded with relevant TOC ticket checking software and may or may not also have a barcode scanner.

Dependant upon the TOC and the locations and routes to be surveyed they may also be in possession of a RID to check Oysters and in a limited capacity due to the RID technology, contactless bank cards and Apple Pay etc.

On Apple Pay, it says Double Click to Pay which causes some customers to be reluctant to have their card checked in this way until it is explained to them.

RID’s Can only check to see if a card has not been blocked.

BLOCKED BY TFL
DECLINED BY CARD ISSUER
FAILED TO READ CARD

are the most common failure issues.

 

[Runningaround]

This is a bonkers thread. Do people really live their lives suspecting everyone else's motiv

Everybody in my immediate vicinity, including myself, showed tickets and presented tickets without hesitation. Natural muscle memory at seeing an official-looking person with confidence asking for tickets and passes, whilst also wielding a RID. From what I gather, they had no ticket issuing or penalty fare/prosecution means. I challenged them shortly after the check, and this is when they refused to provide any rail staff identification. They were reported to the Twitter account and I intend to write a formal complaint regarding this. A BTP report was considered at the time.

Upon completion of my journey, I spoke to a uniformed RPI. They confirmed that they were legitimate persons, however they also expressed concerns at the legality. According to the RPIs, they were people carrying out surveys regarding ticketless travel.

Did you ask to see their tickets/oyster/bank card etc. As it was they had as much right too see theirs as they do yours which is none. Would anyone randomly go up and ask too see a receipt for your shopping without any proof they were a store detective or security, even if plain clothes police will have I.D on them, all Police officers carry a badge number, who do RPI's think they are to be any different? Or is it the railways laws to themselves again.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

issued with a letter of authorisation from the TOC concerned, and should show this when challenged.

Ticketless Travel Surveyors will wear photo ID which includes relevant TOC logo’s. They will, depending on the TOC carry a letter of authority with a named contact and phone number to verify the bonafides of said surveyor.

Surveyors will have tablets loaded with relevant TOC ticket checking software and may or may not also have a barcode scanner.

They had no photo ID, no TOC logos (in fact they were wearing dated lanyards from London Overground on a GTR service). They point blank refused to provide the letter, despite flashing a piece of paper in my face, and even had the cheek to ask to see my personal company ID (not a GTR employee) to even talk to them. Utter cowboys.

 

[357]

Ticketless Travel Surveyors will wear photo ID which includes relevant TOC logo’s. They will, depending on the TOC carry a letter of authority with a named contact and phone number to verify the bonafides of said surveyor.

Surveyors will have tablets loaded with relevant TOC ticket checking software and may or may not also have a barcode scanner.

Dependant upon the TOC and the locations and routes to be surveyed they may also be in possession of a RID to check Oysters and in a limited capacity due to the RID technology, contactless bank cards and Apple Pay etc.

On Apple Pay, it says Double Click to Pay which causes some customers to be reluctant to have their card checked in this way until it is explained to them.

RID’s Can only check to see if a card has not been blocked.

BLOCKED BY TFL
DECLINED BY CARD ISSUER
FAILED TO READ CARD

are the most common failure issues.

I think you mixed up the words "will" and "should" in the first parts of your post

 

[LowLevel]

Ticketless travel surveys are done by short term agency staff and are mandated by the DfT. Little interest in appearance despite engaging with the public is standard for them.

 

[flythetube]

Can’t speak for other agencies but the company I work for does SWR, GWR and HEX Ticketless Travel Surveys amongst other surveys on an ongoing basis and certainly not short term in our case.

We also provide Revenue Protection Teams for Transport for Wales.

We will always speak to guards or Train managers before surveying to come to an understanding on how they wish us to work the train as they may have only just checked tickets in a particular portion or there may be Ticket Examiners or RPI’s on board.

We work closely with Commercial Guards and assist them with pointing out any customers with ticket issues or who need to purchase and generally most are happy to have us working on board with them.

We also undertake Customer Service duties and answer questions that customers may have.

The only time when we may not be able to liaise with on board staff is if it’s a DOO service which we are joining en route for a few stops otherwise we will speak to the driver if we are starting from a terminus station.

The description of the ‘surveyor’ encountered does not sound like one of our staff or our method of working.

I take it that this encounter was not on SWR, GWR or HEX?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The description of the ‘surveyor’ encountered does not sound like one of our staff or our method of working.

I take it that this encounter was not on SWR, GWR or HEX?

Carlisle Support Services on GTR.

 

[spag23]

I'm confused. Does this new breed - Ticketless Travel Surveyors - have the authority to demand sight/scan of tickets? Or not.
In any case it seems like a redundant duplication of the RPI role, especially if both teams are working the same train.

 

[357]

Carlisle Support Services on GTR.

Used to work with them at another TOC - absolute cowboy outfit

Can’t speak for other agencies but the company I work for does SWR, GWR and HEX Ticketless Travel Surveys amongst other surveys on an ongoing basis and certainly not short term in our case.

We also provide Revenue Protection Teams for Transport for Wales.

We will always speak to guards or Train managers before surveying to come to an understanding on how they wish us to work the train as they may have only just checked tickets in a particular portion or there may be Ticket Examiners or RPI’s on board.

We work closely with Commercial Guards and assist them with pointing out any customers with ticket issues or who need to purchase and generally most are happy to have us working on board with them.

We also undertake Customer Service duties and answer questions that customers may have.

The only time when we may not be able to liaise with on board staff is if it’s a DOO service which we are joining en route for a few stops otherwise we will speak to the driver if we are starting from a terminus station.

The description of the ‘surveyor’ encountered does not sound like one of our staff or our method of working.

I take it that this encounter was not on SWR, GWR or HEX?

I don't work for any of the TOCs you've mentioned and I can say that I've never had a survivor speak to me before getting on the train and starting their work.