How do you check the I.D of any rail employee checking your tickets?

[skyhigh]

In any case it seems like a redundant duplication of the RPI role, especially if both teams are working the same train.

They don't sell tickets or issue penalty fares/report for investigation if the passenger doesn't have one. They simply check how many passengers don't have a valid ticket and the data gets reported to the DfT to compare against the targets they set. It can also be used to target RPIs to certain lines. It's effectively DfT measuring performance.

 

[spag23]

They don't sell tickets or issue penalty fares/report for investigation if the passenger doesn't have one. They simply check how many passengers don't have a valid ticket and the data gets reported to the DfT to compare against the targets they set. It can also be used to target RPIs to certain lines. It's effectively DfT measuring performance.

I remain confused. Do these these externally engaged, outsourced surveyors count as "staff of a Train Company" within NRCoT 18.1?

"You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification which your Ticket requires."

 

[Undiscovered]

Baffled here.
If someone is demanding your ticket, refusing to show ID, and you suspect them of being thieves or otherwise a ne'er-do-well, that is possibly the most legitimate reason for pulling the Passcom.

You're being robbed. On a train. That's your only way of summoning help.

I'm pretty sure if legitimate employees were refusing to show ID and had Passcoms pulled as a result, someone, somewhere, would surely be having a meeting without tea or biscuits pronto tonto.

And if you can't get to the Passcom l, shout "Help, I'm being robbed!"

 

[flythetube]

Surveyors will be carrying by letters of authority from the TOC which authorises them to be carrying out the activity stated which is asking to see the ticket held or Oyster / Contactless etc.

Surveys are not mandatory and a customer may refuse shouid they wish to do so.

An assessment will be made at the time as to whether the customer is refusing for a valid reason or likely not to actually have a ticket or other authority to travel.

Refusals, in my experience anyway are extremely few.

We have options to record where Customers may question the Surveyors authority but again this is extremely rare.

A lot of customers are actually delighted to have their tickets checked, we often hear well I’ve been using these trains for over 2 years and never had my tickets checked!!

 

[Haywain]

If someone is demanding your ticket, refusing to show ID, and you suspect them of being thieves or otherwise a ne'er-do-well, that is possibly the most legitimate reason for pulling the Passcom.

You're being robbed. On a train. That's your only way of summoning help.

If you can't tell the difference between a half hearted ticket check, which is what a ticketless travel survey is, and being robbed you'd best stay at home until you can figure out the difference rather than inconveniencing hundreds of other people by activating the passcom.

 

[spag23]

Surveyors will be carrying by letters of authority from the TOC which authorises them to be carrying out the activity stated which is asking to see the ticket held or Oyster / Contactless etc.

Surveys are not mandatory and a customer may refuse shouid they wish to do so.

An assessment will be made at the time as to whether the customer is refusing for a valid reason or likely not to actually have a ticket or other authority to travel.

Refusals, in my experience anyway are extremely few.

We have options to record where Customers may question the Surveyors authority but again this is extremely rare.

A lot of customers are actually delighted to have their tickets checked, we often hear well I’ve been using these trains for over 2 years and never had my tickets checked!!

Unless the surveyors specifically tell every passenger that their co-operation is optional, it's hardly surprising that the refusal rate is low! Most passengers will understandably be intimidated and under the impression that these mere data collectors are RPIs. And as for "making assessments of refusal reasons", is this subjective activity one that the TOC has sanctioned, over and above asking questions? And what happens if an informed passenger later doesn't co-operate with a genuine RPI, believing they are one of these cowboys?

 

[AlterEgo]

And what happens if an informed passenger later doesn't co-operate with a genuine RPI, believing they are one of these cowboys?

Well they win a silly prize having played a silly game. The concept of common sense seems alien to so many people in this thread it is genuinely worrying.

I don’t know how people live their lives thinking that everyone they meet is fake or a scammer until proven otherwise.

 

[flythetube]

Can’t speak for Carlisle Support Services or any other organisation undertaking similar work, each customer spoken to is told that we or I am carrying out a ticket survey today and could I see your tickets or method of payments please.

It is clear from the outset that it’s a ticket survey and not Revenue Protection.

Carlisle seem to have fingers in many pies, Jack of all trades, master of none rather than having staff who have a good strong Railway background and experience.

Any staff engaged on the Surveys are not only acting as ambassadors for their company but also the TOC’s as well as themselves so the sloppy and sovenly methods of working are not something I recognise at my workplace.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Most passengers will understandably be intimidated and under the impression that these mere data collectors are RPIs.

Why would one be intimidated by RPIs unless one was travelling without a ticket?

 

[t_star2001uk]

How do you check the I.D of any rail employee checking your tickets can you refuse without proper identification and if you are in breach of ticketing byelaws it'd be a handy delaying tactic?

This thread seems to have gone from the OP wondering if they can delay having their ticket checked through scammers to agency staff. My thoughts on this are, I'm checking tickets in full uniform carrying ticket issuing equipment, and possibly with a colleague then why would a passenger question who I am? Are there really that many scammers out there who would have access to a full uniform and ticket issuing system? Just my thoughts on this thread....

 

[357]

This thread seems to have gone from the OP wondering if they can delay having their ticket checked through scammers to agency staff. My thoughts on this are, I'm checking tickets in full uniform carrying ticket issuing equipment, and possibly with a colleague then why would a passenger question who I am? Are there really that many scammers out there who would have access to a full uniform and ticket issuing system? Just my thoughts on this thread....

Does the fact that you look official mean that anyone who dares question you is immediately suspicious to you?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I'm checking tickets in full uniform

The agency staff for the surveys lacked any uniform at all yet bar an unbranded hi-vis, yet were agressive in their behaviour.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Does the fact that you look official mean that anyone who dares question you is immediately suspicious to you?

Would you question whether the driver is actually a driver or just a random person who managed to access the front cab? This whole thread started because the OP thought it would be a 'handy delaying tactic' to ask for a member of staff id. The question that should have been asked of the OP is why would you want to delay a staff member legitimately asking for their ticket in the course of their duty....

 

[357]

Would you question whether the driver is actually a driver or just a random person who managed to access the front cab? This whole thread started because the OP thought it would be a 'handy delaying tactic' to ask for a member of staff id. The question that should have been asked of the OP is why would you want to delay a staff member legitimately asking for their ticket in the course of their duty....

As a driver, I have my licence on me at all times, and when asked by someone with the correct ID (that I'm trained how to recognise) I must produce it.

You might not be aware that recently there have been multiple issues with the "TikTok Generation" accessing front, middle and rear cabs.

But you still haven't answered my question. If someone questioned you, what would your reaction be?

 

[Undiscovered]

Would you question whether the driver is actually a driver or just a random person who managed to access the front cab?

I ask myself this question quite a lot.

 

[skyhigh]

I ask myself this question quite a lot.

Seriously.......?

 

[Undiscovered]

Seriously.......?

Yeah.
Happens a lot around new driver season.
And Drivers will say the same around new guard season too

 

[AlterEgo]

As a driver, I have my licence on me at all times, and when asked by someone with the correct ID (that I'm trained how to recognise) I must produce it.

You might not be aware that recently there have been multiple issues with the "TikTok Generation" accessing front, middle and rear cabs.

But you still haven't answered my question. If someone questioned you, what would your reaction be?

Here's a better analogy.

Start every interaction with everyone in authority you ever meet, including every police officer, by asking to see their ID and see whether life becomes easier or harder for you.

 

[357]

Here's a better analogy.

Start every interaction with everyone in authority you ever meet, including every police officer, by asking to see their ID and see whether life becomes easier or harder for you.

I totally agree, but in the situation of a passenger being concerned at for example handing their bank card over, a staff response should be to reassure and at least have some ID or identification to show them.

I've asked a police officer to show their warrant card in multiple situations for multiple reasons, granted normally when in normal clothing, and I've never had one refuse or think I'm doing something suspicious

 

[skyhigh]

I've asked a police officer to show their warrant card in multiple situations for multiple reasons, granted normally when in normal clothing, and I've never had one refuse or think I'm doing something suspicious

To be blunt, if while working a train in full uniform and carrying a standard ticket machine every other guard uses I came across a passenger who refused to show me their ticket unless they saw my ID I would find that a little odd/suspicious, yes. But then again I would happily show my ID and I always wore it normally.

Yeah.
Happens a lot around new driver season.
And Drivers will say the same around new guard season too

When I was a guard I can honestly say I never questioned if a driver was genuine or a fake. This is even more of a crazily unrealistic situation than coming across a fake RPI - has there ever been a reported case of a fake driver moving a train? It must be tiring being so suspicious.

 

[AlterEgo]

I totally agree, but in the situation of a passenger being concerned at for example handing their bank card over, a staff response should be to reassure and at least have some ID or identification to show them.

I've asked a police officer to show their warrant card in multiple situations for multiple reasons, granted normally when in normal clothing, and I've never had one refuse or think I'm doing something suspicious

It is generally true that when someone in authority:

1) In uniform
2) Performing their job
3) Somewhere exactly you'd expect them to be

...is asked immediately for their ID, it will raise some suspicions in most people's minds. That's human nature. Try getting discretion out of someone in authority when the first thing you've said is "show me your ID".

It's simultaneously and equally true along with the fact the employee must happily show said ID and not refuse.

 

[Western Sunset]

Before we enter the realms of is the Pope a Catholic, just a couple of points I'm unclear about, which others have asked above, but don't seem to have been answered:

1. Do externally engaged, outsourced surveyors count as "Staff of a Train Company" within the NRCoT?

2. If asked, must RPIs show their ID, or is it at their discretion?

I probably watch too many police dramas, but Morse, Lewis and Vera are forever showing their ID without being asked.

 

[spag23]

Here's a better analogy.

Start every interaction with everyone in authority you ever meet, including every police officer, by asking to see their ID and see whether life becomes easier or harder for you.

I meet plenty of mobile employees who, on initial introduction, happily present their ID card, usually without having to be asked. This includes gas engineers, health visitors, meter readers, BT engineers, canvassers etc. And yes policemen too, if it's an unexpected visit or they are in plain clothes; as opposed to uniformed officers in a marked car.
I'd like to think that any police officer who harboured the view that he could "make life harder" for anyone asking for his ID would not last long in the force. Perhaps his attitude would make him better suited to re-training as an RPI.

 

[AlterEgo]

I meet plenty of mobile employees who, on initial introduction, happily present their ID card, usually without having to be asked.

People who come to your house or who turn up in places you don't expect them, yes, I would expect that. A census officer turned up at my door a few months ago and was proactive in showing ID.

This includes gas engineers, health visitors, meter readers, BT engineers, canvassers etc. And yes policemen too, if it's an unexpected visit or they are in plain clothes; as opposed to uniformed officers in a marked car.

So what about a uniformed RPI doing their job in a place you'd expect to find them?

Would you even know what their ID looked like and whether it was fake?

Plain clothes, of course - absolutely ask for ID, and I would recommend that to anyone.

I'd like to think that any police officer who harboured the view that he could "make life harder" for anyone asking for his ID would not last long in the force.

You have a great deal of misplaced faith.

 

[Cowley]

We think this is probably a good place to leave it. Four pages in and the discussion has now run its course.

I can’t show you my ID right now but this thread is officially locked.

Thanks everyone.