The Merseyrail units don't really have ramps, rather steps. This sounds on the surface like needless pedantry, I realise, but what it means is that they won't be capable of bridging a significant vertical gap - only a horizontal one. On a railway like ours where the platforms have a huge variety of heights, the technology sometimes just... wouldn't work.Fitting trains with automatic ramps as happening soon on Merseyrail seems *extremely* overdue.
No, it's a reasonable point, thanks for correcting me. It just seems like something can be done to fix this. You only need your mobility to be restricted a little bit to find some of the gaps, steps and curves we find around most of the network quite horrific.The Merseyrail units don't really have ramps, rather steps. This sounds on the surface like needless pedantry, I realise
Shame OBS' don't get the same Route Knowledge as Conductors... they should!
The Merseyrail units don't really have ramps, rather steps. This sounds on the surface like needless pedantry, I realise, but what it means is that they won't be capable of bridging a significant vertical gap - only a horizontal one. On a railway like ours where the platforms have a huge variety of heights, the technology sometimes just... wouldn't work.
Perhaps some more "in the know" members could let us know whether the technology exists to have a proper ramp deployed automatically from underneath the door, as opposed to just a sliding step?
On my first week back commuting as lockdown ended, pre-booked assistance failed to turn up on 8 out my 10 journeys that week. Ended up getting myself off at Waterloo by wheelieing off the train on four of those and having to pull the green handle at FNB on the other four. In my 5 years of daily commuting into London as a wheelchair user, I've found pre-booking makes very little difference as to whether assistance is available
Buses manage powered ramps and don't need to stop in exactly the same spot every time and are dealing with a wide range of kerb heights.
A lot of buses do not have powered ramps - TfL contractual requirement?
The Stagecoach Cumbria buses have pull out or flip out ramps so I think that is Stagecoach non-London standard. Same for Arriva up here.
The buses round here that have automatic ramps had all the bus stops rebuilt with higher kerbs before they came into service. Involved losing a load of bus bays, with buses stopping in the road.My point wasn't about which bus companies do or don't operate powered ramps but that if they can work in an environment where the kerb height varies and the distance from the kerb varies at every deployment then designing a system that can cope with a set of known variables like platform height and distance of the train from the platform.
Stations may differ but you are working within a closed set of variables unlike the effectively infinite locations that a bus encounters. After all, temporary bus stops can be put in place at the drop of a hat, temporary stations less so
My point wasn't about which bus companies do or don't operate powered ramps but that if they can work in an environment where the kerb height varies and the distance from the kerb varies at every deployment then designing a system that can cope with a set of known variables like platform height and distance of the train from the platform.
Stations may differ but you are working within a closed set of variables unlike the effectively infinite locations that a bus encounters. After all, temporary bus stops can be put in place at the drop of a hat, temporary stations less so
It isn’t, for two reasons:
1) DOO has been in place well before TOCs were even a thing.
2) DOO does not mean there must not be a second member of staff
And, as @flitwickbeds has pointed out, it doesn’t matter how many members of staff are on the train, if the platform isn’t accessible to / from the street then it’s irrelevant.
What this won't cover is train failures at inaccessible stations/platforms. The driver will be looking after the train rather than assisting anyone.Spot on. And the elephant in the room people making it about DOO are conveniently ignoring is there are far fewer stations than there are trains, so staffing potentially accessible stations could possibly be cheaper than introducing guards on all trains.
Is what many operators that have Guards do anyway. Look at the issues people have had with LNER, for example.Relying on station staff ....
All LO stations are staffed throughout service which does make a difference. The impact is less on that kind of network when the gap between services is limited which might be why it's less 'newsworthy'. I'll have to check with Transport For All as they keep stats about that kind of thing for London. I've used LO twice and have had assistance fails both times. One needed the driver to get me off the train.Is what many operators that have Guards do anyway. Look at the issues people have had with LNER, for example.
I've not heard of many/any issues with, say, London Overground, yet I have heard of numerous issues with LNER.
This really isn't about the operation of the train; I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree with that suggestion.
It can happen anytime, anywhere.All LO stations are staffed throughout service which does make a difference. The impact is less on that kind of network when the gap between services is limited which might be why it's less 'newsworthy'. I'll have to check with Transport For All as they keep stats about that kind of thing for London. I've used LO twice and have had assistance fails both times. One needed the driver to get me off the train.
The key difference between it being done by station staff and someone guaranteed to be on the train is that the person on the train will be there 100% of the time that the wheelchair user is travelling whereas the member of station staff could be anywhere in the station as they will probably be doing other duties when not doing assistance. When the guard forgets it's normally not too long before they notice that they can't shut the doors or there's someone right alongside the train. Waiting for station staff can take 10 minutes plus in my experience. In some circumstances, having a dedicated assistance team can be counter productive as it gets treated as 'not my job' by other staff. At Waterloo I've had platform dispatch staff walk past and ignore me while I was stuck in the doorway waiting for a ramp who then threatened me with banning me from the station for being dangerous when I got myself off the train.It can happen anytime, anywhere.
The system itself needs to improve. Appropriate staffing levels are obviously a help, but I don't see how this job has to be done by a Guard (and indeed it isn't done by the Guard on many TOCs) so I still dispute the claim made by the original poster that this is down to the operation of the train.
It can happen anytime, anywhere.
The system itself needs to improve. Appropriate staffing levels are obviously a help, but I don't see how this job has to be done by a Guard (and indeed it isn't done by the Guard on many TOCs) so I still dispute the claim made by the original poster that this is down to the operation of the train.
All LO stations are staffed throughout service which does make a difference. The impact is less on that kind of network when the gap between services is limited which might be why it's less 'newsworthy'. I'll have to check with Transport For All as they keep stats about that kind of thing for London. I've used LO twice and have had assistance fails both times. One needed the driver to get me off the train.
Luckily never overcarried on the train. Have been 'busnapped' by the driver forgetting the ramp quite a few times. Once made aware most drivers stop immediately but some insist on taking you to the next stopI once overcarried a wheelchair from Littlehaven to Horsham and being the driver I had no idea ! This after the short lived Passenger Hosts were dispensed with after Thameslink took over some Southern Routes
As a wheelchair user myself I can say 100% #3 was 100% the passengers fault.As a driver, only times I've seen fails has been for following reasons:
1. Poor communication between TOCs (ie Southeastern boarding a passenger at Denmark Hill and failing to notify Clapham Junction, LUL boarding a passenger at Canada Water and not passing on correct info etc)
2. Platform changes (Was supposed to arrive in to Platform 2 at Clapham Junction but was routed in to Platform 1, staff were waiting right at far end of Platform 2).
3. Passenger boarded with a mobility scooter at Dalston Junction in middle carriage, arrived at Canonbury with staff member waiting with ramp (before raised platform was put in). Staff boarded and looked and stepped off as no one was there. Closed doors and started to depart, only for PASSCOM to be pulled. Passenger had decided to go all the way through the train to the rear doors to be closer to the lifts.
4. Passenger using a wheelchair alighted at Shadwell with a friend, I had to jump out and tell them that despite there being a lift, there's stairs to get up there. Obviously given wrong information by someone earlier.
Those two fails you had are definitely two too many, and it saddens me that for an infrequent user, you have a 100% fail record. It really isn't like that normally.
I once overcarried a wheelchair from Littlehaven to Horsham and being the driver I had no idea ! This after the short lived Passenger Hosts were dispensed with after Thameslink took over some Southern Routes
sadly that is the sort of degradation in the role that everyone predicted when it was switched from conductor to OBS. It was never just about "who opens and closes the doors"
Is what many operators that have Guards do anyway. Look at the issues people have had with LNER, for example.
I've not heard of many/any issues with, say, London Overground, yet I have heard of numerous issues with LNER.
This really isn't about the operation of the train; I think the OP is barking up the wrong tree with that suggestion.
Except that isn't actually true in many instances. And where the outcome is true, it's not actually down to the method of operation of the train.So how does a wheelchair user travel on a DOO service? With great difficulty, by notifying the operator(s) of their travel plans and booking assistance, or not at all. It's not right, but that's where we are.
Except that isn't actually true in many instances. And where the outcome is true, it's not actually down to the method of operation of the train.
Those difficulties can and do happen on non-DOO services, as documented by the links provided up thread.