How is it decided which TOC manages a station and is there any benefit in it for them?

[pdeaves]

A little self promotion, if I may.
Stations not served by their SFO TOC are shown here: http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/notserved.shtm
Station operator history is shown here: http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/station1.shtm (and sub pages)

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I was never quite sure why Wolverhampton was changed from being managed by the West Coast operator (Virgin/Avanti) to West Midlands Trains? Anyone have insight on that one?

 

[pdeaves]

I was never quite sure why Wolverhampton was changed from being managed by the West Coast operator (Virgin/Avanti) to West Midlands Trains? Anyone have insight on that one?

So the local authority has a bigger say in its development, I believe. As close as the authority can get to doing it themselves without having to go through licencing, etc.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Plus Greenfield and Mossley which are both managed and staffed by Northern even though none of their trains call there.

Didn't Greenfield and Mossley both used to be served exclusively by Northern trains until May 2018? If so, why wasn't responsibility for the two stations transferred over to TPE when this significant timetable change occurred?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't Greenfield and Mossley both used to be served exclusively by Northern trains until May 2018? If so, why wasn't responsibility for the two stations transferred over to TPE when this significant timetable change occurred?

There are others like this. Lockerbie is a ScotRail station but is served only by TPE. And XC don't operate any stations at all.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

So the local authority has a bigger say in its development, I believe. As close as the authority can get to doing it themselves without having to go through licencing, etc.

Makes sense, thank you! So WMT are effectively acting as a proxy for TfWM I guess.

 

[Haywain]

Lockerbie is a ScotRail station but is served only by TPE

And Avanti.

 

[Mak1981]

That's not quite right. Scotrail do operate all stations in Scotland (except Glasgow Central and Edinburgh which are managed by Network Rail).

Scotrail also do not operate prestwick international airport railway station

 

[pdeaves]

If so, why wasn't responsibility for the two stations transferred over to TPE when this significant timetable change occurred?

One possible reason: Northern already have a team dealing with the stations, all the maintenance records, etc., whereas TPE has the right resource for the level of stations it already has and does not have any of the history looking after them.

 

[Watershed]

Some of the station allocations may seem rather arbitrary, although in most cases that's as a result of service patterns changing since privatisation, when the allocations were (mostly) set in stone. But in general the allocation was biased towards the shadow Intercity franchises.

A few more examples to add to the list:

• Longport is managed by EMR but is now almost exclusively served by WMT services.
• Coventry is still managed by Avanti even though Wolverhampton (which is similar in many respects) was transferred to WMT a few years back. Like Wolverhampton, it has more WMT than Avanti services.
• Rugby is managed by Avanti, even though it has more WMT than Avanti services. To be fair, this may have been more balanced before the VHF timetable was introduced.
• Retford is managed by LNER even though Northern operates twice as many services (well, at least in theory!).
• York, Preston and Middlesbrough are managed by LNER, Avanti and TPE respectively, even though Northern operate the most services at each of these stations. Ditto Hull with TPE/Northern.

 

[Mojo]

In the original agreements, the SFO was decided by axle count rather than number of trains. This ensured that places such as Carlisle and Preston were managed by the inter-city operator despite the provincial companies running more trains.

That makes sense as I always thought that there was some sort of “pecking order” whereby the Intercity Toc that operated trains toward London would get some priority over the regional Toc, as I suppose the Intercity Toc is more likely to need services of station staff such as train dispatch and the booking office. However as always an exception to the rule given this I considered it strange that Wales & West and latterly Wessex Trains were the SFO for Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. I suppose the fact that at the time of privatisation (and indeed even until fairly recently, both stations had a fairly infrequent London-bound direct service).

 

[Haywain]

I considered it strange that Wales & West and latterly Wessex Trains were the SFO for Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. I suppose the fact that at the time of privatisation (and indeed even until fairly recently, both stations had a fairly infrequent London-bound direct service).

Plus the fact that the main Inter-city service at Cheltenham was, and still is, provided by CrossCountry who don't do stations.

 

[nr758123]

One possible reason: Northern already have a team dealing with the stations, all the maintenance records, etc., whereas TPE has the right resource for the level of stations it already has and does not have any of the history looking after them.

That could make sense, in terms of maintenance. It does, however, result in the silliness that Northern have put up posters advertising their products which aren't valid on any trains calling at the stations.

 

[Thirteen]

TfL manages a number of stations with mainline trains like Stratford and Blackfriars and co manages a few with Network Rail.

I think all the major London terminus stations are managed by Network Rail.

 

[MrJeeves]

Balcombe was a 'Connex South Central' station which was served off-peak solely by Thameslink

Balcombe still is a Southern station yet only served by Thameslink off-peak!

 

[zwk500]

Balcombe still is a Southern station yet only served by Thameslink off-peak!

Balcombe is a GTR station, and served by GTR (just happens to have switched brands from Southern to Thameslink but they're the same toc).

 

[urbophile]

Am I right in thinking that Network Rail do not operate the ticket office at their managed stations? Liverpool Lime Street is certainly a NR station, but ticket payments go to Northern. Similarly(ish) Liverpool South Parkway is operated by Merseyrail/Merseytravel, but the solitary ticket machine (when it is working) is provided by Northern.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Am I right in thinking that Network Rail do not operate the ticket office at their managed stations?

Sounds right. At Glasgow Central, which is managed by Network Rail, the main (concourse) ticket office is operated by Scotrail, and the one in the nearby "travel centre" by Avanti. Might even still be a third ticket office (Scotrail?) near the smaller Argyll Street entrance, although I've never actually used that one.

 

[Haywain]

Am I right in thinking that Network Rail do not operate the ticket office at their managed stations?

Network Rail managed stations usually have a 'lead operator' who will provide such services, or it will be by some sort of agreement based on what happened historically. I don't think there are any ticket offices at NR stations that are not provided by TOCs.

 

[zwk500]

Network Rail managed stations usually have a 'lead operator' who will provide such services, or it will be by some sort of agreement based on what happened historically. I don't think there are any ticket offices at NR stations that are not provided by TOCs.

Certainly the ones I can think of were operated by TOCs last time I went through (York, Euston, St Pancras, Victoria (brighton side))

 

[Haywain]

Certainly the ones I can think of were operated by TOCs last time I went through (York, Euston, St Pancras, Victoria (brighton side))

York isn't a Network Rail managed station, it's managed by LNER.

 

[zwk500]

York isn't a Network Rail managed station, it's managed by LNER.

Huh. I could have sworn I saw something about it changing hands to NR when I was using it regularly. Fair enough.

 

[Haywain]

Huh. I could have sworn I saw something about it changing hands to NR when I was using it regularly. Fair enough.

It was proposed and discussed at length some years ago but it didn't actually happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

It was proposed and discussed at length some years ago but it didn't actually happen.

Same time as Newcastle was proposed to transfer IIRC - I assumed Network Rail (NR) wanted to extend their portfolio by adding the few remaining Category A (National Hub) stations it didn’t already manage.

But can anyone fathom why Guildford was changed to NR managed? Was it about over site development?

 

[thenorthern]

With CrossCounty I think I read somewhere that one of the reasons they don't operate stations is because they cover such a wide area with a lot of gaps between intermediate stations it would make it uneconomical for them to manage stations. Also the vast majority of CrossCountry are served more frequently by other operators anyway.

Pre CrossCountry the only stations in a similar position was Manea which was only at the time served only by Central Trains but managed by Anglia Railways/One.

 

[adrock1976]

CrossCountry have never operated any stations, just like they have never operated any depots, so other operators have to operate the stations only they call at.

Regarding depots, how about Central Rivers where the 220s and 221s are based?

This was when Virgin had both the West Coast and Crosscountry franchises until 2007.

Is Central Rivers operated by the West Coast franchise now?

 

[Watershed]

Regarding depots, how about Central Rivers where the 220s and 221s are based?

This was when Virgin had both the West Coast and Crosscountry franchises until 2007.

Is Central Rivers operated by the West Coast franchise now?

It's always been Bombardier (now Alstom) operated, as with most new depots built for post-privatisation train orders.

 

[Fyldeboy]

I was never quite sure why Wolverhampton was changed from being managed by the West Coast operator (Virgin/Avanti) to West Midlands Trains? Anyone have insight on that one?

So the local authority has a bigger say in its development, I believe. As close as the authority can get to doing it themselves without having to go through licencing, etc.

I guess similar reasons apply to Swansea High St which was GWT but is now TfW
GWT had drivers, guards and catering crew based at the station so must have had a much larger presence than (the then) Arriva.

 

[bicbasher]

In 2012 when the SLL transferred from Southern to London Overground only two stations were transferred, Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road with the rest staying with their existing operators.

Yet in 2010 when the ELL was extended, all stations from New Cross Gate to West Croydon were transferred to London Overground including Norwood Junction and West Croydon which have more Southern trains. (Those stations transferred from Southern in 2009 before the start of Overground services).

 

[TrenHotel]

Before privatisation, British Rail ran East Putney, Southfields and Wimbledon Park, even though they had only been served by District Line trains for many years. They had Network SouthEast ticket machines and signage, the lot. Some other anomalies like this had been cleared up in other areas (eg, eastern end of the District) many years before, but this one persisted for some reason.

The stations (and line) were transferred to London Underground in 1994.