How Long Can Heritage Traction Keep On Going?

[TheEdge]

With the class 47 seemingly having had its last hurrah with their withdrawl from the Anglia short set relegating them to charter and spot hire work it got me wondering what future there is for locos of their age? The same goes for the 20s, 31s, and 37s still out there with currently more permanent work.

HNRC's 20s, when the S Stock is delivered what can they do? Once the DMU shortage is dealt with what will the Anglia and Northern 37s have to do? How long can NR afford to run with 31s and 37/97s?

When you are looking at locos which were built before BR stopped building steam engines, 20308 is one I've just checked, built in 1957, 3 years before Evening Star yet still in revenue service with DRS, surely, regardless of how well they are looked after, they must be getting close to life expired.

Or in the irritating manner of the British rail network are they just going to keep getting patched up?

 

[CosherB]

With an absense of newer available traction, what are TOCs supposed to do other than (i) patch up, make do and mend what they have or (ii) purchase / lease new locos at circa £4m each?

The only reason the DRS 47s are coming off front line duties generally is the phasing in of the 68s. Having said that, they'll be hoping that the 57/3s will have an easier time as the second batch of 68s land in the UK!

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Or in the irritating manner of the British rail network are they just going to keep getting patched up?

A. Plenty of people find it far from irritating that heritage traction is still in regular use!
B. As long as they remain reasonably reliable, and spare parts can be sourced without undue difficulty, why change anything? It would appear that the running costs of old locos still aren't quite high enough to make the FOCs make the jump to fully modern fleets. Colas could have ordered more 66s on the back of the recent GBRf border but instead chose to take on 37s, 60s etc and keep their 47s and 56s. Freightliner could have ordered 88s alongside DRS, but their 86s seem to have a future for the time being. And so on...

 

[CosherB]

Colas could have ordered more 66s on the back of the recent GBRf order

Are you sure about that? I thought GBRf squeezed the regulations until they couldn't wring out any more 66's. Colas have 5 66's and have now prised 10 60's from DBS.

Now that Colas are rumoured to have picked up more work on NR test trains, they are going to need something more akin to 37's than Type 5 traction ....

 

[richieb1971]

Seems strange to me that 10 or so are kept whilst 200+ of a class went to scrap.

Some of the make overs look amazing as well. The 73's going up north are such a wonderful example.

 

[TheEdge]

With an absense of newer available traction, what are TOCs supposed to do other than (i) patch up, make do and mend what they have or (ii) purchase / lease new locos at circa £4m each?

Ideally, yes, they should be. It would be lovely if investment became much more common out there... :roll:

A. Plenty of people find it far from irritating that heritage traction is still in regular use!

For ease of discussion about the realistic future for heritage locos lets take it as read enthusiasts like them and leave it at that.

B. As long as they remain reasonably reliable, and spare parts can be sourced without undue difficulty, why change anything? It would appear that the running costs of old locos still aren't quite high enough to make the FOCs make the jump to fully modern fleets. Colas could have ordered more 66s on the back of the recent GBRf border but instead chose to take on 37s, 60s etc and keep their 47s and 56s. Freightliner could have ordered 88s alongside DRS, but their 86s seem to have a future for the time being. And so on...

My point is not necessarily that they should be replaced but how much longer they can realistically go on for? You mention the 86s, they seem to be sitting down a fair bit of recent. At the end the Anglia 47s had awful reliability issues.

They must surely be getting to an age where it just isn't realistic that they can keep going. Like I opened with, there are mainline 20s out there built in the 1950s, they are already almost 60 years old, are we going to see them still running at 80 or 100 years old?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you sure about that? I thought GBRf squeezed the regulations until they couldn't wring out any more 66's. Colas have 5 66's and have now prised 10 60's from DBS.

Now that Colas are rumoured to have picked up more work on NR test trains, they are going to need something more akin to 37's than Type 5 traction ....

Was the GBRf 66 order not made on a loophole where because the engine blocks were made before the deadline they could legally build locos round them?

 

[alexl92]

With the class 47 seemingly having had its last hurrah with their withdrawl from the Anglia short set relegating them to charter and spot hire work it got me wondering what future there is for locos of their age? The same goes for the 20s, 31s, and 37s still out there with currently more permanent work.

HNRC's 20s, when the S Stock is delivered what can they do? Once the DMU shortage is dealt with what will the Anglia and Northern 37s have to do? How long can NR afford to run with 31s and 37/97s?

NR's 31s will be replaced by 73/9s when (I could say 'if' but I'll behave) they're ready.
The thing about 20s and 37s is their high route availability. 66s and 68s have RA7 but the 20s and 37s are RA5.

With an absense of newer available traction, what are TOCs supposed to do other than (i) patch up, make do and mend what they have or (ii) purchase / lease new locos at circa £4m each?

The only reason the DRS 47s are coming off front line duties generally is the phasing in of the 68s. Having said that, they'll be hoping that the 57/3s will have an easier time as the second batch of 68s land in the UK!

I'd imagine that the 57/3s will be retained for thunderbird duties seeing as they have the dellners fitted - I don't know whether any other class can recover a failed pendolino as easily?

 

[CosherB]

Like I opened with, there are mainline 20s out there built in the 1950s, they are already almost 60 years old, are we going to see them still running at 80 or 100 years old?

The 20's are hardly used these days, even by DRS. The occasional nuclear flask journey and RHTT in the autumn are duties that come to mind. More a case of how arduous and how frequent the use, which is 'not very' in both of those cases.

Flogging 37's on the Cumbrian coast is a different matter entirely.....

 

[alexl92]

Was the GBRf 66 order not made on a loophole where because the engine blocks were made before the deadline they could legally build locos round them?

The engine blocks were built and shipped to the UK before the cutoff date which allowed GBRf to circulate the rules. The only other exception was re-using the block from 66734 which was the one that was written off on the bank of a loch in Scotland after a de-railment.

As much as I appreciate the part that the 66s have played in helping to expand the railfreight market in the uk, I am not sorry that no more will be built.

 

[Muzer]

The engine blocks were built and shipped to the UK before the cutoff date which allowed GBRf to circulate the rules. The only other exception was re-using the block from 66734 which was the one that was written off on the bank of a loch in Scotland after a de-railment.

As much as I appreciate the part that the 66s have played in helping to expand the railfreight market in the uk, I am not sorry that no more will be built.

I think you mean circumvent...

 

[w0033944]

They must surely be getting to an age where it just isn't realistic that they can keep going. Like I opened with, there are mainline 20s out there built in the 1950s, they are already almost 60 years old, are we going to see them still running at 80 or 100 years old?

Just a thought - I have a great interest in the historic motorsport/vintage car world. There are historic and vintage events in circuit racing, hillclimbs/sprints, off-road trialling, road rallies etc. for racers and/or road cars up to 80/90 years of age, and occasional events (London-Brighton springs to mind) for Veteran cars built between the dawn of motoring and the end of 1904! Of course, the older vehicles are treated less vigorously, but they are still used - indeed, the Vintage Sports Car Club is, broadly speaking, saddened by the mentality of restoring a car to a level of perfection beyond that achieved by the original manufacturer, only to be stored under a sheet in an air-conditioned industrial unit or mounted on a plinth in a museum like some item of 19th century taxidermy.

If we are to argue that any mechanical item should not be used once it hits a certain age, we would be left with a problem - find the space to store/display all these planes/locomotives/cars/motorcycles/tractors/lorries etc. or scrap them. The first is impractical, the second is little short of cultural vandalism.

 

[TheJRB]

I don't think we're anywhere near seeing the end of the DMU shortage. The DfT seems to have its head in the sand with diesel units, in that they seem to think we can cope with not a single extra diesel train. If the rumours are true and some of the electrification is further delayed or even cancelled, then our DMU problems are only just beginning.

Whilst I was genuinely quite surprised to hear of 37s being used on the Cumbrian Coast, it's a sensible thing to do when you have (relatively) spare locos and coaching stock and no DMUs. I guess our heritage traction needs to be good for some time to come!

 

[TheEdge]

Just a thought - I have a great interest in the historic motorsport/vintage car world. There are historic and vintage events in circuit racing, hillclimbs/sprints, off-road trialling, road rallies etc. for racers and/or road cars up to 80/90 years of age, and occasional events (London-Brighton springs to mind) for Veteran cars built between the dawn of motoring and the end of 1904! Of course, the older vehicles are treated less vigorously, but they are still used - indeed, the Vintage Sports Car Club is, broadly speaking, saddened by the mentality of restoring a car to a level of perfection beyond that achieved by the original manufacturer, only to be stored under a sheet in an air-conditioned industrial unit or mounted on a plinth in a museum like some item of 19th century taxidermy.

To me that's more like locos used on preserved railways, where there are locos and vehicles well over the age of 100 still in use. But its not really day to day use. That's what I am thinking about. These are cars being used for special trips out and rally's but not as the day to day run around, which is how heritage locos of that age are being used.

 

[w0033944]

To me that's more like locos used on preserved railways, where there are locos and vehicles well over the age of 100 still in use. But its not really day to day use. That's what I am thinking about. These are cars being used for special trips out and rally's but not as the day to day run around, which is how heritage locos of that age are being used.

Fair point.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Can any 47s be converted to 57s within the emissions regs?

 

[alexl92]

I think you mean circumvent...

Yes, I did mean circumvent.

I don't think we're anywhere near seeing the end of the DMU shortage. The DfT seems to have its head in the sand with diesel units, in that they seem to think we can cope with not a single extra diesel train. If the rumours are true and some of the electrification is further delayed or even cancelled, then our DMU problems are only just beginning.

Whilst I was genuinely quite surprised to hear of 37s being used on the Cumbrian Coast, it's a sensible thing to do when you have (relatively) spare locos and coaching stock and no DMUs. I guess our heritage traction needs to be good for some time to come!

The rumours that DRS have been asked to quote for a loco-hauled Newcastle - Liverpool service won't go away and there's long been talk of LH Settle & Carlisle services... I agree that I think we're nowhere near the end of this!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don't think we're anywhere near seeing the end of the DMU shortage. The DfT seems to have its head in the sand with diesel units, in that they seem to think we can cope with not a single extra diesel train. If the rumours are true and some of the electrification is further delayed or even cancelled, then our DMU problems are only just beginning.

Whilst I was genuinely quite surprised to hear of 37s being used on the Cumbrian Coast, it's a sensible thing to do when you have (relatively) spare locos and coaching stock and no DMUs. I guess our heritage traction needs to be good for some time to come!

Said head-in-sand DfT has just asked the Northern bidders to sort out an order for 120 new self-powered carriages. That means diesel or bi-mode, and if a production line is opened then more of the same could be ordered as needed.

 

[Bevan Price]

Said head-in-sand DfT has just asked the Northern bidders to sort out an order for 120 new self-powered carriages. That means diesel or bi-mode, and if a production line is opened then more of the same could be ordered as needed.

But that was before the general election...........Things can change when Mr Osborne wants more cuts.

But as for heritage traction - some "smaller" diesels will always be needed for engineering work / test trains etc. on lines that cannot take something as heavy as Class 66, etc. The alternatives are keep the 37s or 20s, even though this will become increasingly expensive - or build a smallish batch of replacements.

In theory, any loco can be kept going forever, if you can afford to obtain / afford replacement components - although only a small fraction of the "original" may still exist after several major overhauls / renewals.

 

[alexl92]

Can any 47s be converted to 57s within the emissions regs?

If the engines already exist... I guess they could? Or could an alternative older engine be used?

 

[D365]

If the engines already exist... I guess they could? Or could an alternative older engine be used?

The engines that were fitted by EMD/GM in our present 57s are reconditioned as it is.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If the engines already exist... I guess they could? Or could an alternative older engine be used?

Don't the engines already have to be in the EU?

 

[59CosG95]

Can any 47s be converted to 57s within the emissions regs?

As everyone else seems to be saying, it is a possibility, but there will only be room for a 57/9 batch, as all the other batches are taken up by Sprinter half-vehicles and existing 57s.

 

[al.currie93]

In theory, any loco can be kept going forever, if you can afford to obtain / afford replacement components - although only a small fraction of the "original" may still exist after several major overhauls / renewals.

Quite. That also depends on the company motives. DRS and now Colas seem to adopt a strategy of "Keep it going as long as possible to minimise instantaneous capital cost." DBS on the other hand definitely had a strategy of "Replace everything at massive capital expense in the hopeof minimising running costs." Which one is better is probably very debatable - though I'd personally go with the DRS strategy as being more moral when resource consumption is considered.

 

[DarloRich]

With the class 47 seemingly having had its last hurrah with their withdrawl from the Anglia short set relegating them to charter and spot hire work it got me wondering what future there is for locos of their age? The same goes for the 20s, 31s, and 37s still out there with currently more permanent work.

HNRC's 20s, when the S Stock is delivered what can they do? Once the DMU shortage is dealt with what will the Anglia and Northern 37s have to do? How long can NR afford to run with 31s and 37/97s?

When you are looking at locos which were built before BR stopped building steam engines, 20308 is one I've just checked, built in 1957, 3 years before Evening Star yet still in revenue service with DRS, surely, regardless of how well they are looked after, they must be getting close to life expired.

Or in the irritating manner of the British rail network are they just going to keep getting patched up?

It will continue until there is a business case for investing in a suitable, yet small, fleet of go anywhere locomotives
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite. That also depends on the company motives. DRS and now Colas seem to adopt a strategy of "Keep it going as long as possible to minimise instantaneous capital cost." DBS on the other hand definitely had a strategy of "Replace everything at massive capital expense in the hopeof minimising running costs." Which one is better is probably very debatable - though I'd personally go with the DRS strategy as being more moral when resource consumption is considered.

Indeed - i wouldn't like to say which is the better approach having had exposure to both options regarding capital expenditure. It often comes down to cash flow/accessibility to affordable funding and company motives.

 

[alexl92]

As everyone else seems to be saying, it is a possibility, but there will only be room for a 57/9 batch, as all the other batches are taken up by Sprinter half-vehicles and existing 57s.

I thought the numbers on sprinter half-vehicles weren't their actual TOPS number? Why did they number the individual carriages like that if it means you can't then use the series for the 'eponymous' loco?

DMUs are already in TOPS between 100 - 199 iirc... I don't understand.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought the numbers on sprinter half-vehicles weren't their actual TOPS number? Why did they number the individual carriages like that if it means you can't then use the series for the 'eponymous' loco?

DMUs are already in TOPS between 100 - 199 iirc... I don't understand.

In the case of multiple units, there is more than one TOPS number per unit.

For example, a class 158 may have three or four.

It will have the TOPS unit number 158XXX as well as numbers for each individual car in the unit.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There is no modern replacment for 37s, 20s or even 08s. Perhaps if there was there would then be fewer old locomotives around. But the number required is perhaps not significant enough to justify the design and build of modern replacements.

Though I often dream of a Clayton like locomotive (class 17 iirc) suitable for shunting and light duties. One large engine and one small engine so it can do mainline work but also sit in a yard keeping itself warm and shunting. It would also have a good route availability.

 

[Elecman]

What's the RA of the 68/88 locos?

 

[Monty]

What's the RA of the 68/88 locos?

Class 68s are RA7, no idea about the 88s. They may well share lots of similar components but until you know the final weight of the loco it will be impossible to know what route availability it will have.

 

[nottsnurse]

Just a quick point. If a loco is owned and operated by a mainline FOC is it really a "heritage loco"? I'd suggest not.

British FOCs are far from the only operators in Europe of 50/60's era locomotives, yet I'm not aware of mainland European users having their stock described as heritage.