How long can i be held on a train?

[mr_moo]

Fair point. Perfectly reasonable question and discussion IMHO

 

[etr221]

Something I read a while back was that on airlines, all those cabin attendents weren't there to serve you meals, or flog over priced duty frees: they were there to manage passengers in an emergency, and ensure that they all did the safe thing. So the likes of Ryanair have to send them on duty free flogging courses, but won't - can't - dispense with them, however much they would like to (which may be lot less than you might think - safety costs a lot, accidents - deaths and injuries - far more).

The railway needs to understand that - if a train is just stopped, people will - sooner or later - self evacuate; the only way it can prevent this is by getting the train moving, or managing an evacuation. Beyond this all it can do is make it later, rather than sooner, and good passenger management - of which communication is the main part, ensuring that people know they are not forgotten, and that whatever is needed is being done - is essential for this. And if the driver is the only staff member on the train, it's his job ... whatever else he might have to do, or however capable he might be.

 

[ModernRailways]

If a train has decent conditions- everyone in a seat, hotel power working, toilets available, regular updates from traincrew even if it's "no change"- then chances of self de-trainment are apparently (and logically) rather lower than if it's a ram-loaded unit with no power, and no opening windows on a hot sunny day. Lesson there?.

I think this is a key factor. The conditions on board and type of service will introduce massive variables.
An intercity service such as LNER, or Avanti and people are more likely going to be willing to wait for a longer period of time.
A local service, such as Crossrail, Thameslink, SouthEastern/SWR/Southern Metro, and people will generally have a shorter time period.

If the train is partly/fully in a platform then an announcement made so people can leave the train (if partly platformed, passengers advised where to go for working doors), people can choose to linger on the platform and then when the train is ready to go the guard makes an announcement, whistles blown etc. or they can make alternate travel plans. Of course, this sort of thing requires a guard which on metro style routes, specifically in the South, isn't a common feature and is all the more reason for guards (or at least another safety critical member of staff who can reduce the workload of the driver).

I would definitely say people now are generally more impatient and less willing to wait around with minimal/no information with a not insignificant chunk of people thinking they know better than the staff trained for those situations. That one person who thinks they know better and decides 'F this, I'm getting off and walking up tracks', pulls emergency door release, and jumps out of the train will generally be the catalyst to others then joining them.

I think it's worth looking at the past few uncontrolled evacuations where passengers have got sick of waiting, the vast majority are on DOO services, the driver is trying to juggle multiple things alongside trying to keep passengers informed, having another member of staff on board and some of those situations I can imagine would have played out very differently.

 

[CarrotPie]

If the train is partly/fully in a platform then an announcement made so people can leave the train (if partly platformed, passengers advised where to go for working doors), people can choose to linger on the platform and then when the train is ready to go the guard makes an announcement, whistles blown etc. or they can make alternate travel plans. Of course, this sort of thing requires a guard which on metro style routes, specifically in the South, isn't a common feature and is all the more reason for guards (or at least another safety critical member of staff who can reduce the workload of the driver).

I would definitely say people now are generally more impatient and less willing to wait around with minimal/no information with a not insignificant chunk of people thinking they know better than the staff trained for those situations. That one person who thinks they know better and decides 'F this, I'm getting off and walking up tracks', pulls emergency door release, and jumps out of the train will generally be the catalyst to others then joining them.

I think it's worth looking at the past few uncontrolled evacuations where passengers have got sick of waiting, the vast majority are on DOO services, the driver is trying to juggle multiple things alongside trying to keep passengers informed, having another member of staff on board and some of those situations I can imagine would have played out very differently.

And services in the South East (755, 720, 710, 466, 465, 376, etc.) are often formed of two or more units, with no gangway connection. So even if a guard is present, or the driver has the time, or doors are opened, not everyone can also be reached.

 

[dk1]

And services in the South East (745, 720, 710, 466, 465, 376, etc.) are often formed of two or more units, with no gangway connection. So even if a guard is present, or the driver has the time, or doors are opened, not everyone can also be reached.

745s are through train 12-car units. You may have meant 755.

 

[pompeyfan]

Usually if it’s a concern for welfare, and situation is protracted, it’s likely doors will be opened pretty swiftly. If there’s a situation further up the line trains will be stacked in platforms by the signaller, with the crew expected to come to a clear understanding and release the doors.

The only time passengers should be “detained” is if the train is involved in a fatality and there is “matter” likely to be observed.

 

[185143]

Something I read a while back was that on airlines, all those cabin attendents weren't there to serve you meals, or flog over priced duty frees: they were there to manage passengers in an emergency, and ensure that they all did the safe thing. So the likes of Ryanair have to send them on duty free flogging courses, but won't - can't - dispense with them, however much they would like to (which may be lot less than you might think - safety costs a lot, accidents - deaths and injuries - far more).

The railway needs to understand that - if a train is just stopped, people will - sooner or later - self evacuate; the only way it can prevent this is by getting the train moving, or managing an evacuation. Beyond this all it can do is make it later, rather than sooner, and good passenger management - of which communication is the main part, ensuring that people know they are not forgotten, and that whatever is needed is being done - is essential for this. And if the driver is the only staff member on the train, it's his job ... whatever else he might have to do, or however capable he might be.

<pedant>

But what if the driver isn't a "he"?

So that I'm not going off topic, I remember seeing a lot of criticism from enthusiast circles of people detraining during the Lewisham incident.

In the circumstances I can completely understand why people decided to bail out after several hours stranded on full+standing trains with no toilets in sub zero temperatures! That is of course an exception to the "norm"

To give an example of a detrainment I was involved in, we'd just had a fatality and come to a stand half in a station. Only around 20 people onboard the diesel train, so all facilities were working, and the guard had access to bottled water to distribute if necessary and was able to keep us updated.

It was around 2 hours until the decision was made to detrain us into road transport that had been organised. But we had information, a regular staff presence and relative comfort. So in those circumstances egressing onto the platform, or, to put it differently, the crime scene (which it is until proven otherwise) would have been totally unreasonable.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think this is a key factor. The conditions on board and type of service will introduce massive variables.
An intercity service such as LNER, or Avanti and people are more likely going to be willing to wait for a longer period of time.
A local service, such as Crossrail, Thameslink, SouthEastern/SWR/Southern Metro, and people will generally have a shorter time period.

Also where it is. people are more likely to stay put on Rannoch Moor than they are if they are next to a city street.

 

[Irascible]

Something I read a while back was that on airlines, all those cabin attendents weren't there to serve you meals, or flog over priced duty frees: they were there to manage passengers in an emergency, and ensure that they all did the safe thing. So the likes of Ryanair have to send them on duty free flogging courses, but won't - can't - dispense with them, however much they would like to (which may be lot less than you might think - safety costs a lot, accidents - deaths and injuries - far more).

Like guards they are far more trained than you'd think about someone you usually & hopefully just see coming around to check on you. They also don't much help you stop feeling miserable if you're stuck in a plane somewhere for whatever reason...

If someone's threatening themselves and possibly lives of others then I can see why nobody wanted to add crowd control for a bunch of people with interrupted journeys to the situation - might not even be enough staff. Putting a train in a platform is rather asking for people to self-enable detrainment though.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It doesn't meet the legeal definition of 'false imprisonment', not even remotely...

It is a common law offence so there is no statutory definition but the establioshed case-law definition of false imprisonment is "the unlawful and intentional or reckless detention"
So you would have to prove it was

• reckless - the person accused ignored the potential consequences (possible, being trapped on a train without heat, light, sustenance or toilet facilities should be a factor in the train crew's decision)
• intentional - possibly: the original delay was out of the control of the train crew, but releasing the doors is in their power and therefore not doing so is a conscious decision
• unlawful - this begs the question, being a bit of a circular argument. But if there is a bylaw or statute allowing staff to detain people on a train against their will it is, by definition, lawful. (There is certainly a bylaw preventing people leaving a train between stations, as that is trespass)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You’d be accused of being impatient by some even if you just sighed heavily after being trapped on a train for 8 hours with no opening windows and 30c outside, no working toilets and no water.

Yes, and made to feel guilty over the circumstances of the disruption, which I think is terribly manipulative. Perfectly reasonable question by the OP and perfectly reasonable to be frustrated too.

 

[Deafdoggie]

..... and some motorway incidents (accidents, severe weather) have resulted in people being stranded in their stationary vehicles for many, many hours- with no information or assistance. [Once it's over 6-8 hours then they will usually start turning traffic around to release on the same carriageway, but that's a long slow process].

The M6 is closed Southbound between J13 & J14 today. The police were turning trapped traffic around within the hour.

 

[Skiddaw]

Also where it is. people are more likely to stay put on Rannoch Moor than they are if they are next to a city street.

Speak for yourself! I'd be off the train and half way up a Munro given half a chance...

 

[MotCO]

I think it's worth looking at the past few uncontrolled evacuations where passengers have got sick of waiting, the vast majority are on DOO services, the driver is trying to juggle multiple things alongside trying to keep passengers informed, having another member of staff on board and some of those situations I can imagine would have played out very differently.

Can central control access a train's internal comms system? If so, whilst the driving is doing all his driver things in an emergency, can control relay updates direct to the passengers? (It does assume that there is someone at control with spare time and access to info.)

 

[skyhigh]

Can central control access a train's internal comms system? If so, whilst the driving is doing all his driver things in an emergency, can control relay updates direct to the passengers? (It does assume that there is someone at control with spare time and access to info.)

At least some stock allows this, and GSMR does have a function that allows the signaller to make a PA broadcast if enabled (I think it's mainly DOO stock that has this), though I've never known it happen.

 

[CarrotPie]

Can central control access a train's internal comms system? If so, whilst the driving is doing all his driver things in an emergency, can control relay updates direct to the passengers? (It does assume that there is someone at control with spare time and access to info.)

DOO(P) services must have a way for the signaller to communicate with passengers in the event the driver becomes incapacitated.

 

[43066]

You’d be accused of being impatient by some even if you just sighed heavily after being trapped on a train for 8 hours with no opening windows and 30c outside, no working toilets and no water.

Can you cite any examples of such accusations?

Rest assured *nobody* wants to detain passengers unnecessarily. You do realise the same people who operate the railway have to deal with the fallout from detrainments, and they don’t want to be late home any more than the passengers do?

Can central control access a train's internal comms system? If so, whilst the driving is doing all his driver things in an emergency, can control relay updates direct to the passengers? (It does assume that there is someone at control with spare time and access to info.)

At least some stock allows this, and GSMR does have a function that allows the signaller to make a PA broadcast if enabled (I think it's mainly DOO stock that has this), though I've never known it happen.

I had an idea it was the signaller rather than control, although there’s no reason it couldn’t be both, as control can call via the GSMR. I should probably know for sure! I’ve never known it to happen.

 

[12LDA28C]

I had an idea it was the signaller rather than control, although there’s no reason it couldn’t be both, as control can call via the GSMR. I should probably know for sure! I’ve never known it to happen.

Some TOCs require a regular DSD/GSM-R test to be carried out which involves the driver allowing the DSD to activate which sends an alert to the controlling signalbox, responded to by the Signaller making a remote PA announcement within the train, to replicate an emergency situation during which the driver has become incapacitated.

 

[The Puddock]

Can central control access a train's internal comms system?

At least some stock allows this, and GSMR does have a function that allows the signaller to make a PA broadcast if enabled (I think it's mainly DOO stock that has this), though I've never known it happen.

DOO(P) services must have a way for the signaller to communicate with passengers in the event the driver becomes incapacitated.

I had an idea it was the signaller rather than control, although there’s no reason it couldn’t be both, as control can call via the GSMR. I should probably know for sure! I’ve never known it to happen.

Both signaller and control GSM-R terminals can broadcast to the train PA, as long as the rolling stock is configured for this. ScotRail was routinely using GSM-R PA broadcasts to DOO services during disruption from a dedicated desk in its control, although I‘m out of touch with whether or not they still do this today.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Was this a cry for help or a protest? My automatic assumption these days is that it was probably some kind of protest, and passengers are kept on the train for the safety of whichever group is holding the protest.

Back when the Christian group were protesting on the Underground train back in 2019, didn't TFL staff have to rush to protect the pair from a good doing after they were dragged off the roof of the train by commuters?