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How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

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underbank

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I would like to know if you think that webcams are a good way of showing off the Heritage lines.

Yes, I think they're a brilliant way of show-casing/advertising. I'm North West England based so whilst I've done all the Lancashire/Yorkshire/Cumbria preserved lines, and a few Midlands and Welsh ones, I've never done any more Southern lines.

Due to the railcam website, I now have the West Somerset, Swanage, South Devon and RHDR well in my sights and working out how/when to visit them. I barely even knew they existed beforehand (well I did but had no plans to visit as they were off my radar). The website has really given me an insight and interest in them.
 
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Neen Sollars

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Another factor to put into the mix which I don`t think has been addressed in too much detail in this thread is the closer scrutiny the ORR (Office of Road and Rail) is placing the heritage railway industry under. There appears to be a dedicated HR Inspector who is visiting all HRs. The main brief appears to be Health and Safety, to ensure customers and staff are safe when travelling and visiting. Lots of extra checking and recording, often in great detail of track, rolling stock and infrastructure maintenance, needed to satisfy the Inspector. There is a concern that perhaps his initial light touch approach may gradually turn into greater requirements. The problem for HRs is the more you look, the more you find, and it all has to be recorded for independent scrutiny.
 
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Another factor to put into the mix which I don`t think has been addressed in too much detail in this thread is the closer scrutiny the ORR (Office of Road and Rail) is placing the heritage railway industry under. There appears to be a dedicated HR Inspector who is visiting all HRs. The main brief appears to be Health and Safety, to ensure customers and staff are safe when travelling and visiting. Lots of extra checking and recording, often in great detail of track, rolling stock and infrastructure maintenance, needed to satisfy the Inspector. There is a concern that perhaps his initial light touch approach may gradually turn into greater requirements. The problem for HRs is the more you look, the more you find, and it all has to be recorded for independent scrutiny.
Sadly,some of this can be attributed to these railways themselves. There have been just too many "runnings away" and other incidents. One incident, thankfully without damage, injury or worse was horribly like the iconic Abermule collision. ORR have to take notice.
 

Llanigraham

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Another factor to put into the mix which I don`t think has been addressed in too much detail in this thread is the closer scrutiny the ORR (Office of Road and Rail) is placing the heritage railway industry under. There appears to be a dedicated HR Inspector who is visiting all HRs. The main brief appears to be Health and Safety, to ensure customers and staff are safe when travelling and visiting. Lots of extra checking and recording, often in great detail of track, rolling stock and infrastructure maintenance, needed to satisfy the Inspector. There is a concern that perhaps his initial light touch approach may gradually turn into greater requirements. The problem for HRs is the more you look, the more you find, and it all has to be recorded for independent scrutiny.

They are going even further than that.
We know that they have staff who have joined numerous Facebook groups and who spend time checking there and YouTube.
 

Belperpete

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They are going even further than that.
We know that they have staff who have joined numerous Facebook groups and who spend time checking there and YouTube.
In this day and age, I think they have to. If it is "public knowledge" that something potentially unsafe is going on, then they would get roasted if they failed to act and an accident happened. In the old days things became public knowledge through being reported in the newspapers, but things have moved on.
 

Belperpete

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Sadly,some of this can be attributed to these railways themselves. There have been just too many "runnings away" and other incidents. One incident, thankfully without damage, injury or worse was horribly like the iconic Abermule collision. ORR have to take notice.
The heritage railways have a much higher accident rate than the mainline railways. While the mainline railways have moved on and tightened things up, many heritage railways haven't. I think this is partly because the heritage railways are largely staffed by retired railwaymen who perpetuate practices that they were familiar with. I think some volunteers also view working on "their" railway in much the sake way as they do working on their house or garden - no need for any of this H&S nonsense, if the ceiling needs painting, I'll just stand on a chair, for example.
 

Spagnoletti

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The heritage railways have a much higher accident rate than the mainline railways. While the mainline railways have moved on and tightened things up, many heritage railways haven't. I think this is partly because the heritage railways are largely staffed by retired railwaymen who perpetuate practices that they were familiar with. I think some volunteers also view working on "their" railway in much the sake way as they do working on their house or garden - no need for any of this H&S nonsense, if the ceiling needs painting, I'll just stand on a chair, for example.

Please share some statistics that support your assertion on accidents.
There are more current employees of TOCs and Network Rail on the line I volunteer at than retired ones. Their attitude to H&S is exemplary.
 

Llanigraham

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The heritage railways have a much higher accident rate than the mainline railways. While the mainline railways have moved on and tightened things up, many heritage railways haven't. I think this is partly because the heritage railways are largely staffed by retired railwaymen who perpetuate practices that they were familiar with. I think some volunteers also view working on "their" railway in much the sake way as they do working on their house or garden - no need for any of this H&S nonsense, if the ceiling needs painting, I'll just stand on a chair, for example.

That comment suggests you know very little about the heritage sector. I am still in contact with numerous ex-railway workers and know of only 2 that are involved on a heritage railway, and on the one I am involved with I am the ONLY ex-railway worker.
Perhaps you would like to provide some statistics to back it up?
 

YorkshireBear

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Please share some statistics that support your assertion on accidents.
There are more current employees of TOCs and Network Rail on the line I volunteer at than retired ones. Their attitude to H&S is exemplary.

The statement is used by the ORR and is then repeated as fact. In their defence if I read a fact from ORR I generally believe it.
 

Belperpete

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Please share some statistics that support your assertion on accidents.
There are more current employees of TOCs and Network Rail on the line I volunteer at than retired ones. Their attitude to H&S is exemplary.
My comment was not about current TOC/NR employees, whose attitude is indeed exemplary. I was commenting more about those who retired a decade or more ago.

It has been widely reported that the Heritage Railways appear disproportionately highly in the accident statistics, and a scan of the RAIB accident reports would appear to confirm this. I can't give figures, but from my reading of the accident reports, a significant number of those from the heritage sector would appear to involve long-standing volunteers/staff carrying out in-grained practices, often not in accordance with current policy.

That comment suggests you know very little about the heritage sector.
As you know so much more about the heritage sector, rather than just rubbishing my suggestions, you could instead make some suggestions of your own as to why the heritage railway sector appears disproportionately highly in the accident statistics.
 

reddragon

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As you know so much more about the heritage sector, rather than just rubbishing my suggestions, you could instead make some suggestions of your own as to why the heritage railway sector appears disproportionately highly in the accident statistics.

It could be a statistical anomaly. A mainline service with high frequency trains, with high passenger numbers covering high daily mileages per vehicle versus a heritage line with one train doing minimal mileage with a few passengers.

Depends on the statistical measure.
 

Flying Phil

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Also worth remembering that in absolute or relative terms travelling/working on a heritage railway must be less of a risk than playing many sports, horse riding, cycling, swimming etc....
 

ainsworth74

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Also worth remembering that in absolute or relative terms travelling/working on a heritage railway must be less of a risk than playing many sports, horse riding, cycling, swimming etc...
Of course but the sorts of accidents involved in those sorts of things (horse riding accepted perhaps) in the majority of cases will be relatively minor. Bumps, brusies, a pulled muscle or maybe a broken bone if you're very unlucky. On a heritage railway people can be killed or be left with life altering injuries very very quickly and very easily.

The South Devon Railway allowed a Mk1 into service with the toilet floor removed and the cubicle door secured by a few screws through the frame into the door. A child was then left moments away from falling into this hole and think we all know how that would have ended up:

s300_South_Devon_Railway.jpg


(Image shows hole in floor clearly allowing child to fall onto a wheel and/or onto the track)

Heritage railways are safe and the odds of an accident happening are probably lower than on many other activities but when their is an accident the outcomes can be far more severe.
 

option

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My comment was not about current TOC/NR employees, whose attitude is indeed exemplary. I was commenting more about those who retired a decade or more ago.

It has been widely reported that the Heritage Railways appear disproportionately highly in the accident statistics, and a scan of the RAIB accident reports would appear to confirm this. I can't give figures, but from my reading of the accident reports, a significant number of those from the heritage sector would appear to involve long-standing volunteers/staff carrying out in-grained practices, often not in accordance with current policy.

A 90yr old now would have been retiring in 1990...
Someone retiring a decade ago at 60 would have only been entering the industry in the 1970s.
They wouldn't know current NR policy, but they will have spent most, if not all, of their working life in a system where safety was of the utmost importance.
 

Journeyman

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I can assure you, from personal experience and data sources I can't discuss openly, that some of the things that happen on heritage railways are terrifying.
 

paul1609

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I can assure you, from personal experience and data sources I can't discuss openly, that some of the things that happen on heritage railways are terrifying.
I have been involved with a heritage railway for close on 40 years. During that time Ive had 2 periods as a director and some of that time Ive sat on the railways safety committee as the second safety director. Our safety director is currently a director of a mainline TOC. There are more volunteers at our line that are currently employed as operators by various mainline TOCs than retired rail staff. Even then many of the retired staff now undertake sedentary roles in the organisation.
Some members of this forum can vouch for my credentials including at least one member of staff.
I currently still see all the safety and incident information issued by both the ORR and the HRA. I can't recognise the situation you describe. Yes there are incidents that you think, wow how did that happen but probably no more proportionately than the mainline.
 

Cowley

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YorkshireBear

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I have been involved with a heritage railway for close on 40 years. During that time Ive had 2 periods as a director and some of that time Ive sat on the railways safety committee as the second safety director. Our safety director is currently a director of a mainline TOC. There are more volunteers at our line that are currently employed as operators by various mainline TOCs than retired rail staff. Even then many of the retired staff now undertake sedentary roles in the organisation.
Some members of this forum can vouch for my credentials including at least one member of staff.
I currently still see all the safety and incident information issued by both the ORR and the HRA. I can't recognise the situation you describe. Yes there are incidents that you think, wow how did that happen but probably no more proportionately than the mainline.

Because you don't see it at your railway does not mean it isn't a problem of course. You are basing you're view on a very small sample size.
 

LowLevel

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It happens all over. I'm another with feet in both shoes, national network and preserved lines, and they both come with their 'oh bugger' moments.
 

47434

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Expensive extension? Cost control, particularly in relation to contract work?

People might be interested to know that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, with five miles of route, has a virtually identical turnover.

Armchair observers are obsessed by when Pres Railways are extending. Fact is though 90% of visitors couldn't care less where they go from and to so long as a) it is a steam train b) there is something to do at at least one of the ends of the line - even if it is a half decent cafe.
 

Llanigraham

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Armchair observers are obsessed by when Pres Railways are extending. Fact is though 90% of visitors couldn't care less where they go from and to so long as a) it is a steam train b) there is something to do at at least one of the ends of the line - even if it is a half decent cafe.

And there are decent car parks and toilets!
 

Claire Sheppy

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I would suspect that just about all of the heritage railways are in some sort of financial difficulty. There will be many people (such as the hotels and bed and breakfasts, restaurants and so on around the fringes of the various railways) who would suffer too if any of these railways were to collapse. Much more stringent action needs to be taken so that the railways are working rather more efficiently. Increasing fares is not the answer as that will just further reduce the people who can afford to travel. Perhaps longer railways could run shorter journey trains with small engines and shorter trains at the beginning and end of the seasons. The threatened household coal situation will not help of course if it were to be introduced.
 

mpthomson

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Much of this is pure wishful thinking which may or may not prove to be justified. That certain organisations are facing financial difficulty is not in doubt.

Indeed, councils aren’t going to intervene in what is a commercial operation’s financial woes. Public money shouldn’t be used for that.
 

Meerkat

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Indeed, councils aren’t going to intervene in what is a commercial operation’s financial woes. Public money shouldn’t be used for that.

Perfectly reasonable for councils to support a heritage railway operation if it maintains local heritage and brings visitor spend to their area. There are legal issues about public funding a company but most of the HRs are at least partly charities, and councils have found ways around such restrictions to help football clubs survive.
 

2392

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Indeed North Yorkshire County Council, contributed £300,000, to the North Yorkshire Moors Bridge 30 fund a few years ago from the Council transport budget. On the grounds that the NYMR generate around £30,000,000 for the Whitby - Moors/National Park - Scarborough area. Yes £30million, which in turn made the £300K look like decidedly small change. Granted there will have been those who would have objected, to such a sum being given. But as has been mentioned there are all those ancillary business' around the area that employ local folk that have nothing directly to do with the Railway. The Hotels, B&B's, cafes, pubs, petrol stations etc.
 

duffield

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I would suspect that just about all of the heritage railways are in some sort of financial difficulty.
...
I'm not sure that's the case. For example, I get the impression that the NYMR, SVR, GWSR, EVR, NNR, KWVR, GCR and KESR all have pretty sound finances (though I might be wrong about one or two I think the general point is correct).
 

Spamcan81

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Heritage has had the benefit of a culture of early retirement which may change as many schemes will no longer pay out at 55 or 60 but follow the national pension age increases.
Someone will free time at 55 is much different from a probably worn out 67.
On the other hand the GIG economy may allow younger volunteers to participate through their working time flexibility.
Many early operations received extensive free labour from Manpower employment schemes, track laying etc, such provision being less available now.

Excuse me. I'll be 67 in a couple of weeks and am most certainly not worn out. I'll be retiring next year and am looking forward to increasing the number of days I volunteer for my chosen heritage railway project.
 

option

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I'm not sure that's the case. For example, I get the impression that the NYMR, SVR, GWSR, EVR, NNR, KWVR, GCR and KESR all have pretty sound finances (though I might be wrong about one or two I think the general point is correct).

I know that one of them operates on a 'no debts' basis, so generally no long-term debts or overdrafts.
They even saw their gross profit increase during 2018.


The problem with debts is valuing whatever they are tied to, & how well that value could be realised.
Old station buildings would sell quite well, but the formation itself would go for very little. Track would fetch very little, as the buyer would have to remove it.
Sticking 20 carriages onto the market would seriously depress the market value.
 

Killingworth

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I know that one of them operates on a 'no debts' basis, so generally no long-term debts or overdrafts.
They even saw their gross profit increase during 2018.


The problem with debts is valuing whatever they are tied to, & how well that value could be realised.
Old station buildings would sell quite well, but the formation itself would go for very little. Track would fetch very little, as the buyer would have to remove it.
Sticking 20 carriages onto the market would seriously depress the market value.

The valuation of a going concern is usually light years away from valuation as a 'gone' concern. Approaching insolvency buildings tend to go towards rack and ruin and may sell at knock down prices. Many outstanding debts can't be collected and creditors who's bills had been 'overlooked' come out of the woodwork. As above, rusting away old rolling stock and materials may have deteriorated to the point where they can't be given away.

I admire those railways that manage to avoid mega debt and the oft seen sidings full of immobile rusting away rolling stock visible for all to see. It takes many talents to run a successful business of any sort and understanding finance related to that specialised market is imperative.
 
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