How many trains that can run faster than its current top speed?

[william.martin]

A shed could wizz past 75 no problem if running light engine also a 166 could hit 100 if you really gave it the beans.

 

[racyrich]

The 357s were built for 100 mph, and could probably exceed that, but spend their life limited to 75. It's a shame no one's ever hired a pair for a railtour up the GEML to stretch their legs.

 

[3RDGEN]

I've read on here numerous times that all stock is tested at speeds of up to 10% higher than the regular top speed; can anyone confirm?

Historically it was standard practice to do ride testing at 10% overspeed, so 60 = 65, 75 = 85, 90 = 100 etc. It's commented above that 22x did 137.5 and 80x 154 on test and I believe 390 did 155 so it would appear it is still carried out. It was often in the contract for some reason.

A shed could wizz past 75 no problem if running light engine also a 166 could hit 100 if you really gave it the beans.

166 did 100 in testing, even crush loaded.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe 390 did 155

Only 145 I understand

 

[3RDGEN]

Only 145 I understand

Was that on the West Coast then? I guess the 80x's 154 would be East Coast then?

 

[hexagon789]

Was that on the West Coast then? I guess the 80x's 154 would be East Coast then?

154mph was achieved by an LNER 801 accidentally, in service, in similar circumstances to the TPE incident.

 

[HOOVER29]

HST - 148, record run
IC225 - 162, in testing
80x - 154, in testing/at least 148 in non-test conditions
22x - 137.5 in testing
67 - 143, in testing
156 - at least 85, unofficially and in service on several occasion

Although it has been stated in a few places that the 37s were modified for the 100mph GWML services, in actual fact, nothing was altered from the base design. As built, the 37s shared the same bogie design as the Deltics with the same 106mph gearing.

Some members were later 80mph max, as they had new, reduced gearing bogies fitted.


Yes, recorded as 230km/h - but that is basically 143mph.

Trying to picture a class 67 doing 143mph and the noise it’d make doing so

 

[CW2]

I'm pretty sure pairs of 20s did more than 75mph on the downhill run in to Sheffield on SO Skegness to Sheffield in the 1980s.

I had a pair of 20s at 97 mph on a Carstairs - Edinburgh working. The driver was a notable lunatic, who was (several years later) removed from driving duties due to overspeeding in an engineering possession.

 

[RolandR]

The IC225s were named as such because 225kph = 140mph. I remember hearing at the time that it was intended to run at 140mph between Stoke junction and Peterborough on the ECML and that the signalling was upgraded, but I don’t think it ever happened.

 

[hexagon789]

The IC225s were named as such because 225kph = 140mph. I remember hearing at the time that it was intended to run at 140mph between Stoke junction and Peterborough on the ECML and that the signalling was upgraded, but I don’t think it ever happened.

Flashing Greens were added for testing and sections of line signed at 135/140, but strictly for testing purposes.

 

[Rob F]

A 135 speed board can be seen in this shot I took in 1990.

 

[BluePenguin]

The IC225s were named as such because 225kph = 140mph. I remember hearing at the time that it was intended to run at 140mph between Stoke junction and Peterborough on the ECML and that the signalling was upgraded, but I don’t think it ever happened.

Why was that I wonder?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Why was that I wonder?

Required in-cab signalling at that speed, if I remember correctly.

 

[johnrichmond70]

Class 20 locomotives originally had a maximum permissible speed of 75 mph (later reduced to 60) and class 37s 90 mph (later reduced to 80mph). I'm not sure whether or not class 20s ever reached 75 between Derby and Nottingham on the Summer weekend Skegness trains, but East of Nottingham the line speed limit is 60 or less. In the mid/late 1960s a small group of Landore-based 37s were specially modified to run at 100 mph double-heading Paddington-Bristol services. Certain Eastfield-based 37s also occasionally stood in for non-available 27s on the 90 mph Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull services in the early 1970s.

A pair of 20s hit around 90mph heading south from Chesterfield to Derby on a Worksop open day committee railtour in the 90's. Not surprisingly, they were failed at Derby afterwards!

 

[hexagon789]

Why was that I wonder?

HMRI had previously determined that in service speeds exceeding 125mph required cab signalling.

If any intentions of in service 140mph running had been perpetuated, this would've therefore been required.

 

[D365]

The maximum speed of all class 37s was reduced to 80 mph after the refurbishment programme started, as it was deemed "too difficult /confusing" to have some locos passed for 80 mph and others for 90 mph. By that time the use of 37s on class 1 passenger services was much diminished in any case.

So basically they couldn’t be bothered to have subclasses?

I think the problem was that there were already too many sub-classes....and that's where the confusion could have arisen.

Correct, it was a mitigation for the risk of double-heading an unmodified 37/0 (nominally 90mph) with a rebogied 37/3, 37/4, 37/5, 37/7 (80mph)...

 

[RolandR]

Why was that I wonder?

Flashing Greens were added for testing and sections of line signed at 135/140, but strictly for testing purposes.

I can imagine that the trains and systems were tested, but the new trains were labelled and marketed to the travelling public as being capable of 225kph.

 

[hexagon789]

I can imagine that the trains and systems were tested, but the new trains were labelled and marketed to the travelling public as being capable of 225kph.

They are capable though; indeed they are still plated for 140mph on the data panels.

 

[Prestige15]

Class 20 locomotives originally had a maximum permissible speed of 75 mph (later reduced to 60) and class 37s 90 mph (later reduced to 80mph). I'm not sure whether or not class 20s ever reached 75 between Derby and Nottingham on the Summer weekend Skegness trains, but East of Nottingham the line speed limit is 60 or less. In the mid/late 1960s a small group of Landore-based 37s were specially modified to run at 100 mph double-heading Paddington-Bristol services. Certain Eastfield-based 37s also occasionally stood in for non-available 27s on the 90 mph Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull services in the early 1970s.

I have seen a clip of a class 86 on a charter service passing Croy with a 37 at the rear, The 86 was doing 100mph while carrying the class 37.

A Deltic during the 'Scots Grey' charter done the same with a class 57

I've also seen a clip of a HST doing about 130mph on the ECML years ago while on its ordinaly passenger service.

 

[Railperf]

I've also seen a clip of a HST doing about 130mph on the ECML years ago while on its ordinaly passenger service.

I recorded a genuine 129mph (GPS verified) down Stoke Bank on a HST before a jolt indicating the power being cut out.
It was not uncommon to see 126/127 MPH on both HST's and Class 91's on the ECML. THe speedo needle is quite thick, so not easy to plant accurately on the dial.


GWR HST's had ATP to contend with - so depending on wheelset diameter - it was not uncommon to see top speeds no more than 122-123mph for years.

Class 755 FLIRT units race to 100mph from rest in under 70 seconds. They feel as though they could easily do 125mph. AIUI, the bogies/wheelsets etc are the same as 200km/h (124mph) versions - which would be tested at 137mph -10% overspeed testing.

 

[hexagon789]

I have seen a clip of a class 86 on a charter service passing Croy with a 37 at the rear, The 86 was doing 100mph while carrying the class 37.

A Deltic during the 'Scots Grey' charter done the same with a class 57

I've also seen a clip of a HST doing about 130mph on the ECML years ago while on its ordinaly passenger service.

How do you know know they are doing these speeds from a 'clip'?

 

[Railperf]

How do you know know they are doing these speeds from a 'clip'?

If you know the length of the consist and as long as the camera remains still, it would be a time vs distance calculation i guess?

 

[hexagon789]

If you know the length of the consist and as long as the camera remains still, it would be a time vs distance calculation i guess?

Hardly accurate. Could easily be doing normal speed but a slightly different interpretation of the time could easily push the calculated speed up or down fairly significantly.

 

[AM9]

Hardly accurate. Could easily be doing normal speed but a slightly different interpretation of the time could easily push the calculated speed up or down fairly significantly.

Assuming a mobile phone is what most people use as a basic video camera, the average frame rate is usually 30fps. Thus at 100mph, the resolution of the images movement across the screen is 1.5m. A class 86 pulling 10 MKIIIs would have a total length of just under 250m, which would pass front to rear extremeties across 166 frames.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've read on here numerous times that all stock is tested at speeds of up to 10% higher than the regular top speed; can anyone confirm?

I'm not sure if it is still required for ALL stock but I remember there was a TV programme a while back showing the steam locomotive Tornado doing 100mph. Apparently it was required to do 99mph as part of the process for being authorised to run at up to 90mph and they allowed it to go up to 100mph on the proving run instead of 99mph to get the round number.

The IC225s were named as such because 225kph = 140mph. I remember hearing at the time that it was intended to run at 140mph between Stoke junction and Peterborough on the ECML and that the signalling was upgraded, but I don’t think it ever happened.

HMRI had previously determined that in service speeds exceeding 125mph required cab signalling.

If any intentions of in service 140mph running had been perpetuated, this would've therefore been required.

Flashing Greens were added for testing and sections of line signed at 135/140, but strictly for testing purposes.

My understanding was that speeds exceeding 125mph were determined to require cab signalling as a result of the testing with flashing greens, rather than having already been decided before the testing actually took place. Also I find it rather strange that they would go to the expense of installing the signs if it was strictly for testing, since it is/was clearly possible to get special permission to exceed the signed maximum speed for testing purposes. I except the signs and flashing greens were installed with the intent to use them in passenger service, but then the flashing greens were found too hard to read at high speeds and deemed unsafe to rely on. I wonder if they had added an extra light for the 5th aspect (eg. double green instead of flashing green) whether cab signalling would still have been mandated for exceeding 125mph.

A 135 speed board can be seen in this shot I took in 1990.

Thanks for that; interesting to see it in place. I think there's a 140mph speed board in the National Railway Museum.

 

[hexagon789]

My understanding was that speeds exceeding 125mph were determined to require cab signalling as a result of the testing with flashing greens

It was determined during testing of the APT-P, hence its 125mph ceiling vs the intended 155mph operating speed.

 

[bramling]

We all know that the HST did reach over 140mph, as well as 91/MK4 did about 160mph and apparently a 156 once hit 90mph (im guessing during testing when they were new). Is there any other stock that has traveled faster than its current top speed?

Class 8XX will no doubt can and I think the Voyager could also do 140mph (When Virgin Trains made an order they said their new trains can go upto 140, so that would include the Voyagers)

I'm not sure if class 67 has ever went faster than 110mph despite its top speed of 125mph

Pretty much all LU stock can certainly go faster than their stated maximum. There’s plenty of stories of A stock in particular reaching 70+ mph. Likewise there are plenty of stories of trains being taken “off the clock”. It doesn’t really happen now, though I daresay it isn’t too uncommon to be on a 73 stock above 45 mph.

 

[AM9]

My understanding was that speeds exceeding 125mph were determined to require cab signalling as a result of the testing with flashing greens, rather than having already been decided before the testing actually took place. Also I find it rather strange that they would go to the expense of installing the signs if it was strictly for testing, since it is/was clearly possible to get special permission to exceed the signed maximum speed for testing purposes. I except the signs and flashing greens were installed with the intent to use them in passenger service, but then the flashing greens were found too hard to read at high speeds and deemed unsafe to rely on. I wonder if they had added an extra light for the 5th aspect (eg. double green instead of flashing green) whether cab signalling would still have been mandated for exceeding 125mph.

I suspect that a double green would be regarded as no safer than a single green. When seen at a speed significantly over 125mph, it woul;d be impossible to be sure that it was a double green until it was too late to correct the speed.

 

[BelleIsle]

I recorded a genuine 129mph (GPS verified) down Stoke Bank on a HST before a jolt indicating the power being cut out.
It was not uncommon to see 126/127 MPH on both HST's and Class 91's on the ECML. THe speedo needle is quite thick, so not easy to plant accurately on the dial.

We were told the governor was set at exactly 128mph. In the late 70s, hitting 140+ down Stoke happened on more than a few occasions. I assume it was the same on the Western with them having one less on. Got 112mph out of Paddy as well.

 

[hexagon789]

We were told the governor was set at exactly 128mph. In the late 70s, hitting 140+ down Stoke happened on more than a few occasions. I assume it was the same on the Western with them having one less on. Got 112mph out of Paddy as well.

The governed speed depends on tyre wear - as new, it's 132mph, on minimum ~123mph.

ER/ScR sets had governors from new...