How might the Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) affect the route around Cross Gates?

[quantinghome]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pgrade-and-electrification-updates-cp6.88054/

This is a visualisation which means someone has drawn it without knowing the topography. The actual cutting here is already four-tracks wide and much shorter than the visualisation implies. NR are not going to waste money unnecessarily constructing a cutting only two tracks wide. The plans say abutments, plural, are being retained.
There is room to move both running lines over to the left to ease the 90mph speed limit to 100mph. Perhaps that is their intention

The topography from Google maps seems to match the sketch. No way you're getting four tracks through there without widening the cutting. All doable of course, and yes, it's a short cutting, but it remains to be seen whether this will be part of the scope.

 

[deltic08]

The topography from Google maps seems to match the sketch. No way you're getting four tracks through there without widening the cutting. All doable of course, and yes, it's a short cutting, but it remains to be seen whether this will be part of the scope.

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Yes it does look narrow for four tracks doesn't it. It didn't look like that fifty years ago. I know that spent ballast was dumped there instead of being taken away when the Down line was replaced with cwr and concrete sleepers in the early to mid 1970s. Maybe that and the overgrowth make it look like the bottom of the cutting is narrower than it was.
The bridge span here is definitely four tracks long. Check it on one of Don Coffeys videos from the cab.

 

[quantinghome]

Yes it does look narrow for four tracks doesn't it. It didn't look like that fifty years ago. I know that spent ballast was dumped there instead of being taken away when the Down line was replaced with cwr and concrete sleepers in the early to mid 1970s. Maybe that and the overgrowth make it look like the bottom of the cutting is narrower than it was.
The bridge span here is definitely four tracks long. Check it on one of Don Coffeys videos from the cab.

The video is helpful - thank you. There's certainly a decent amount of space under the bridge and it does suggest the abutment is not founded on the cutting slope.

Historical maps show there was a third line accessing the goods yard, running on top of a slope above the main line, so the current slope may be a remnant of that plus dumped material from over the years.

 

[deltic08]

The video is helpful - thank you. There's certainly a decent amount of space under the bridge and it does suggest the abutment is not founded on the cutting slope.

Historical maps show there was a third line accessing the goods yard, running on top of a slope above the main line, so the current slope may be a remnant of that plus dumped material from over the years.


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We will have to hope it is wide enough for four tracks when finished. Four tracks would be very useful for capacity increase for trains stopping at Cross Gates and for when Thorpe Park station opens. Even three tracks would help.

West Yorkshire PTE wanted to open a station at Osmanthorpe and two others between Leeds and Cross Gates and use part of the Wetherby line to the A64 for a P&R station, but were told there was insufficient capacity on an optimised two track liine for any more stopping services. There were only two paths available per hour and those were for non stopping trains.
They planned to extend Bradford FS or Ilkley trains across Leeds to turn around on the Wetherby line to free up west end bay platforms. North West electrification killed the idea as these trains became electric and unable to travel beyond Neville Hill. WYPTE didn't have the funds to electrify to Cross Gates so removed route protection on the Wetherby line in 2001.
Now the trackbed is to be obliterated by houses in the East Leeds Newtown of 40,000 people.

A population of that siize will generate 1.8 cars per household or 18,000 cars. Hardly environment friendly. Leeds intends to be car free to a radius of five miles of the city centre by 2030 but cannot now use rail. Instead, as many a 300 double deck buses will be used in the morning and evening peak periods.

To aid commuting into Leeds, an East Leeds Orbital Road, ELOR, has been built costing £100m that should have been spent on rail in the area.

 

[quantinghome]

We will have to hope it is wide enough for four tracks when finished. Four tracks would be very useful for capacity increase for trains stopping at Cross Gates and for when Thorpe Park station opens. Even three tracks would help.

West Yorkshire PTE wanted to open a station at Osmanthorpe and two others between Leeds and Cross Gates and use part of the Wetherby line to the A64 for a P&R station, but were told there was insufficient capacity on an optimised two track liine for any more stopping services. There were only two paths available per hour and those were for non stopping trains.
They planned to extend Bradford FS or Ilkley trains across Leeds to turn around on the Wetherby line to free up west end bay platforms. North West electrification killed the idea as these trains became electric and unable to travel beyond Neville Hill. WYPTE didn't have the funds to electrify to Cross Gates so removed route protection on the Wetherby line in 2001.
Now the trackbed is to be obliterated by houses in the East Leeds Newtown of 40,000 people.

A population of that siize will generate 1.8 cars per household or 18,000 cars. Hardly environment friendly. Leeds intends to be car free to a radius of five miles of the city centre by 2030 but cannot now use rail. Instead, as many a 300 double deck buses will be used in the morning and evening peak periods.

To aid commuting into Leeds, an East Leeds Orbital Road, ELOR, has been built costing £100m that should have been spent on rail in the area.

We're getting a little off topic, but to respond briefly, I think in the cold light of day the P&R at Thorpe park station is actually a better option than a branch line off to the A64. It can be incorporated into the existing service, and can provide a better service frequency. With a passing loop, 4tph should be readily achievable - a branch line would never be able to justify that level of service, always playing second fiddle to York and Selby services. The branch line junction at Cross Gates would be a major design headache. The demand on the branch line probably wouldn't be enough to justify grade separation and an at-grade crossing would limited capacity.

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the nature of the East Leeds Extension - it's still designed around the car with some active travel infrastructure tacked on. It could have been more radical. But at the end of the day people need somewhere to live so on balance I'm glad it's happening.

ELOR is of course mostly about car journeys but at least it means the P&R station is only 3 minutes' drive from the A64.

 

[Monkeyhead]

It was never 4 tracks under that bridge - there was a reasonably complicated set of point work at the east end of Cross Gates station to merge the 4 lines into 2 off to Wetherby and 2 off to York. The third one under the bridge was a single line on what I imagine to be a fairly steep incline up to the goods yard where the Arndale Centre car park now is. The "goods line" also ran parallel to the 2 tracks for a while to provide a headshunt and access to the tank factory - the remnants of the line and pointwork are still there, as were the gates up until recently.

You'd get 4 tracks from after Neville Hill through to Cross Gates with alignment changes, as that's what used be there, and I suspect there's room on 90% of the track between Cross Gates and Garforth, the issue areas being the new builds (that have never been occupied!) at Thorpe Park and the narrowing at Nanny Goat Lane crossing.

 

[Spartacus]

The video is helpful - thank you. There's certainly a decent amount of space under the bridge and it does suggest the abutment is not founded on the cutting slope.


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That should be correct. As I understand it most of the bridges were contracted to allow a 4 track railway to pass underneath, even if the cutting wasn't excavated that far, so that in some places there's still bridges that are longer than the cutting is wide. Now, that obviously means in many places would would still be needed to widen the cuttings which never had 4 tracks in them, and there may not be adequate clearances under the bridges anyway without significant lowering, depending on the location.

 

[deltic08]

It was never 4 tracks under that bridge - there was a reasonably complicated set of point work at the east end of Cross Gates station to merge the 4 lines into 2 off to Wetherby and 2 off to York. The third one under the bridge was a single line on what I imagine to be a fairly steep incline up to the goods yard where the Arndale Centre car park now is. The "goods line" also ran parallel to the 2 tracks for a while to provide a headshunt and access to the tank factory - the remnants of the line and pointwork are still there, as were the gates up until recently.

You'd get 4 tracks from after Neville Hill through to Cross Gates with alignment changes, as that's what used be there, and I suspect there's room on 90% of the track between Cross Gates and Garforth, the issue areas being the new builds (that have never been occupied!) at Thorpe Park and the narrowing at Nanny Goat Lane crossing.

At last someone who knows.

Is Monkeyheads account the definitive answer?

 

[Monkeyhead]

Hopefully this photo will help (it's pretty old and I don't know the photographer to credit), but taken I assume with the goods line out of shot to the right, showing the two tracks to Selby/York on the left, and Wetherby on the right

 

[Nottingham59]

I assume with the goods line out of shot to the right,

I think the footbridge visible just by the chimney might be over goods line on its embankment.

 

[Monkeyhead]

Yes, agreed, was replaced later on with a sleeper made foot crossing, one of the gate posts is still there for the entrance to the yard. But while I'd love to discuss the Cross Gates station and Wetherby line more (I've loads of photos and made a reasonable representation in Train Sim years ago), I don't want to deviate too far from the thread and get told off!

Possibly easier track plan here:

 

[unslet]

Yes, agreed, was replaced later on with a sleeper made foot crossing, one of the gate posts is still there for the entrance to the yard. But while I'd love to discuss the Cross Gates station and Wetherby line more (I've loads of photos and made a reasonable representation in Train Sim years ago), I don't want to deviate too far from the thread and get told off!

Possibly easier track plan here:
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Love to see any photos as I'm from Cross Gates. Start a new thread if you like.

 

[yorkie]

Love to see any photos as I'm from Cross Gates. Start a new thread if you like.

I have now split this into a new thread.