How much "new" capacity has the Elizabeth line actually gained?

[306024]

Not horribly difficult tbh, main GE depot is at Ilford as I understand it.
Ilford depot to Barking (if the GEML Reliefs are the section out of action) is 15 mins on a bus, 5 mins down to West Ham on c2c, 7 mins to Canary Wharf on the Jubilee, then 11 mins to Abbey Wood. Max about an hour with padding.
Or 40 mins by car

.
Either way, it's theoretical, but certainly it could be done. Expect you'd see more issues at the Padd end.

The biggest GE Liz line depot in terms of numbers of drivers is Gidea Park, with Ilford and Shenfield smaller. Ilford drivers sign on in Ilford Depot.

That is four modes of transport to get to Abbey Wood. Just one of those failing would mean your driver not getting there in time, and your whole stepping back procedure could collapse. By road the AA recommended route would be Blackwall Tunnel for Ilford drivers, or Dartford Crossing for Gidea Park and Shenfield drivers. Neither can be relied upon to be congestion free.

Of course it is possible to get a driver anywhere, but you’ll need to allow more time and plan something much more robust than that.

 

[matt_world2004]

The biggest GE Liz line depot in terms of numbers of drivers is Gidea Park, with Ilford and Shenfield smaller. Ilford drivers sign on in Ilford Depot.

That is four modes of transport to get to Abbey Wood. Just one of those failing would mean your driver not getting there in time, and your whole stepping back procedure could collapse. By road the AA recommended route would be Blackwall Tunnel for Ilford drivers, or Dartford Crossing for Gidea Park and Shenfield drivers. Neither can be relied upon to be congestion free.

Of course it is possible to get a driver anywhere, but you’ll need to allow more time and plan something much more robust than that.

Wouldn't it be easier to run taxi banks from Ilford to abbey wood in these circumstances or have a ferry vehicle ferrying crew from the depot to the change over point and back again.

This is what some london bus routes do when the driver changeover point is far from the depot

Is it expensive for MTR. Yes but is it as expensive as cancelling a train. Probably not.
.

 

[306024]

Wouldn't it be easier to run taxi banks from Ilford to abbey wood in these circumstances or have a ferry vehicle ferrying crew from the depot to the change over point and back again.
This is what some london bus routes do when the driver changeover point is far from the depot
Is it expensive for MTR. Yes but is it as expensive as cancelling a train. Probably not.

Well there is the Woolwich Ferry A staff van, plus driver, has always worked out more expensive overall than taxis, which are the least worse option in this scenario.

 

[jon81uk]

Paddington,Tottenham Court road, Farringdon,Liverpool street, Whitechapel, canary wharf, Abbey wood have toilets in the central section

The TfL map doesn't suggest that Tottenham Court Road has toilets, only shows Whitechapel having accessible toilets and Canary Wharf is at the Jubilee Line station (but they do have plenty in the shopping malls at least) https://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
I agree with the previous comment, they really should have built public toilets into the new station buildings. Councils/government seem to rely too much on shops/malls providing public toilets instead of seeing them as an essential service.

 

[matt_world2004]

The TfL map doesn't suggest that Tottenham Court Road has toilets, only shows Whitechapel having accessible toilets and Canary Wharf is at the Jubilee Line station (but they do have plenty in the shopping malls at least) https://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
I agree with the previous comment, they really should have built public toilets into the new station buildings. Councils/government seem to rely too much on shops/malls providing public toilets instead of seeing them as an essential service.

The customer toilets at Tottenham Court road is by the pret, staff will unlock the accessible toilets at Whitechapel if you ask them or you can get a radar key if you have a disability that means you need more frequent toilet access

The toilets for crossrail Elizabeth line are on the third floor of crossrail place. You can get a lift down straight to the Elizabeth line ticket hall.

I have a radar key even though I don't have a disability because I work at bus stops.

 

[Horizon22]

It’s still two services per hour off peak at my local (Taplow) so no improvement there . The 345s most likely have not many more seats than a 3 or 4 turbo at best, no internet connectivity, no power points and no toilets on these glorified cattle trucks. No toilets on most of the new central stations either, given the billions spent surely bogs could have been provided. As for journey times given the 5 to 10 minute wait to enter the tunnels at Westbourne Park a journey from say Slough to Paddington will most likely be quicker using GWR to Paddington then circle line to say Farringdon or Liverpool St thus avoid the lengthy walks through the tunnels to make connections. A replacement bus might be better than the walk from EL to LST. This line is totally alien to the elderly and disabled and needs to be avoided until improved . I suppose all we can expect at the moment is another 10% hike in fares.Sorry rant over.

Taplow does only get 2tph but that station at Iver are the only ones in this case. There are a lot more seats than a turbo, and you’ll certainly be getting a seat from Taplow.

No toilets due to the - relatively - short distances, and the fact a unified stock was built primarily for intensive metro operations. You don’t have toilets on the London Overground either. Was all about capacity.

The maximum wait is 7 minutes, so no “10 minutes” and that is the absolute maximum, not the average.

If you want to take GWR Slough - Paddington nobody is going to deny that’s quicker but walking all the way to the H&C/Circle line - I’m presuming you’re taking the fast train not the semi-fast stopper - is a much longer walk then to Paddington Elizabeth line. Join at the front and you’ll have probably a 5 minute walk at Liverpool Street. Given the additional frequency versus the Tube and the time saving of 15 minutes in journey time I guarantee you it will be quicker.

More likely the ARL side rather than GA West Anglia.


Any turnback facilities at Plumstead to help with turning trains or is it just Abbey Wood?

Not going to help the core if the Shenfield branch is closed if the maximum is 12 tph to Abbey Wood.

Plumstead is a shunt siding and only accessible from the Abbey Wood platforms not from the Eastbound direction. So it wouldn’t make any difference.

If the Shenfield branch is shut, some trains will terminate At Liverpool Street. Not great for a weekday but a train every 5 minutes (some terminating at Paddington) should be adequate if not busy at the weekend.

The biggest GE Liz line depot in terms of numbers of drivers is Gidea Park, with Ilford and Shenfield smaller. Ilford drivers sign on in Ilford Depot.

That is four modes of transport to get to Abbey Wood. Just one of those failing would mean your driver not getting there in time, and your whole stepping back procedure could collapse. By road the AA recommended route would be Blackwall Tunnel for Ilford drivers, or Dartford Crossing for Gidea Park and Shenfield drivers. Neither can be relied upon to be congestion free.

Of course it is possible to get a driver anywhere, but you’ll need to allow more time and plan something much more robust than that.

There’s more Old Oak Common drivers than anywhere else and plenty of Abbey Wood and Plumstead drivers and other West to make up the numbers for the inevitable reduced service in operation. East drivers need only get to Liverpool Street/Stratford, a relatively easy taxi or to Newbury Park and pass on LU.

 

[jon81uk]

The customer toilets at Tottenham Court road is by the pret, staff will unlock the accessible toilets at Whitechapel if you ask them or you can get a radar key if you have a disability that means you need more frequent toilet access

The toilets for crossrail Elizabeth line are on the third floor of crossrail place. You can get a lift down straight to the Elizabeth line ticket hall.

I have a radar key even though I don't have a disability because I work at bus stops.

Wonder why TfL haven't included Tottenham Court Road on the map then?
The Canary Wharf Crossrail place ones are in the shopping mall so nothing to do with TfL which is probably why they aren't shown on the map. But that just proves my point that councils/government are relying on privately owned shopping malls to provide the toilet facilities.

 

[matt_world2004]

Wonder why TfL haven't included Tottenham Court Road on the map then?
The Canary Wharf Crossrail place ones are in the shopping mall so nothing to do with TfL which is probably why they aren't shown on the map. But that just proves my point that councils/government are relying on privately owned shopping malls to provide the toilet facilities.

No but neither are the toilets in Paddington mainline or Liverpool street mainline to do with tfl. Indeed the toilets at the 3rd floor crossrail place are more accessible to people using the station than the shopping centre where they are a maze and labyrinthine of corridors to access instead of a simple lift up from the station concourse. The lift goes through staff only floors so does not stop in any canary wharf owned property until it reaches the station concourse (Ubless of course there are staff on board)

Also currently there are no businesses open on the floor the toilets are on

The toilets at crossrail place were built as part of the crossrail construction project. You can only leave the station through canary wharf group owned property .you wouldn't say the toilets in the station at Heathrow Airport aren't there because you are getting off the train at Heathrow Airport owned property to use them

 

[cygnus44]

Taplow does only get 2tph but that station at Iver are the only ones in this case. There are a lot more seats than a turbo, and you’ll certainly be getting a seat from Taplow.

No toilets due to the - relatively - short distances, and the fact a unified stock was built primarily for intensive metro operations. You don’t have toilets on the London Overground either. Was all about capacity.

The maximum wait is 7 minutes, so no “10 minutes” and that is the absolute maximum, not the average.

If you want to take GWR Slough - Paddington nobody is going to deny that’s quicker but walking all the way to the H&C/Circle line - I’m presuming you’re taking the fast train not the semi-fast stopper - is a much longer walk then to Paddington Elizabeth line. Join at the front and you’ll have probably a 5 minute walk at Liverpool Street. Given the additional frequency versus the Tube and the time saving of 15 minutes in journey time I guarantee you it will be quicker.



Plumstead is a shunt siding and only accessible from the Abbey Wood platforms not from the Eastbound direction. So it wouldn’t make any difference.

If the Shenfield branch is shut, some trains will terminate At Liverpool Street. Not great for a weekday but a train every 5 minutes (some terminating at Paddington) should be adequate if not busy at the weekend.



There’s more Old Oak Common drivers than anywhere else and plenty of Abbey Wood and Plumstead drivers and other West to make up the numbers for the inevitable reduced service in operation. East drivers need only get to Liverpool Street/Stratford, a relatively easy taxi or to Newbury Park and pass on LU.

Cou

No but neither are the toilets in Paddington mainline or Liverpool street mainline to do with tfl. Indeed the toilets at the 3rd floor crossrail place are more accessible to people using the station than the shopping centre where they are a maze and labyrinthine of corridors to access instead of a simple lift up from the station concourse. The lift goes through staff only floors so does not stop in any canary wharf owned property until it reaches the station concourse (Ubless of course there are staff on board)

Also currently there are no businesses open on the floor the toilets are on

The toilets at crossrail place were built as part of the crossrail construction project. You can only leave the station through canary wharf group owned property .you wouldn't say the toilets in the station at Heathrow Airport aren't there because you are getting off the train at Heathrow Airport owned property to use them

Could the two Maidenhead terminators not call at Taplow and Iver given they sit at Maidenhead for up to 15m doing nothing .

As for public loos in London, one of the worlds great capital cities the provision of public loos is appalling in this day and age, surely some could have been provided at central EL stations.

The GWR main line from Paddington to Reading is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock not underground type stock as in the 345s

1000 standing sounds ok, but what happens when one comes of the rails.

 

[matt_world2004]

[Quote

Cou

Could the two Maidenhead terminators not call at Taplow and Iver given they sit at Maidenhead for up to 15m doing nothing .

As for public loos in London, one of the worlds great capital cities the provision of public loos is appalling in this day and age, surely some could have been provided at central EL stations.

The GWR main line from Paddington to Reading is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock not underground type stock as in the 345s

1000 standing sounds ok, but what happens when one comes of the rails.

Some have been provided at central crossrail stations the only central stations that do not have toilets are Woolwich and Bond Street

 

[Chris M]

The GWR main line from Paddington to Reading is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock not underground type stock as in the 345s

And it has it in the form of the 800s and 387s.

 

[cygnus44]

And it has it in the form of the 800s and 387s.

But they do not stop at many stations and I do not think they want local passengers on the 800s given the draconian restrictions in the evening peak.

[Quote

Some have been provided at central crossrail stations the only central stations that do not have toilets are Woolwich and Bond Street

I could not find any at LST, PAD had to go upstairs to main line stations, very long walk at LST.

 

[matt_world2004]

But they do not stop at many stations and I do not think they want local passengers on the 800s given the draconian restrictions in the evening peak.


I could not find any at LST, PAD had to go upstairs to main line stations, very long walk at LST.

The walk to the toilets at Liverpool street mainline is shorter than the walk to the westbound metropolitan lines at Liverpool street iirc .

 

[345 050]

Cou

Could the two Maidenhead terminators not call at Taplow and Iver given they sit at Maidenhead for up to 15m doing nothing .

As for public loos in London, one of the worlds great capital cities the provision of public loos is appalling in this day and age, surely some could have been provided at central EL stations.

The GWR main line from Paddington to Reading is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock not underground type stock as in the 345s

1000 standing sounds ok, but what happens when one comes of the rails.

At the moment, the Reading trains skip Iver and the Maidenhead trains skip Taplow. In the peak hours, all trains stop at both, except the 'bonus' limited stop services, but there are only 2 or 3 of these.

I can't see massive journey time improvements as a result of the stops. I suspect it's a combination of Low demand from those 2 stations and enhanced resilience in the timetables. In theory they could add them in, but then they would be cancelling those stops at the first sign of disruption. Those 15 minutes at Maidenhead assist with getting services back on time when there is disruption. It's not just dead time for the sake of it.

 

[TFN]

No but neither are the toilets in Paddington mainline or Liverpool street mainline to do with tfl. Indeed the toilets at the 3rd floor crossrail place are more accessible to people using the station than the shopping centre where they are a maze and labyrinthine of corridors to access instead of a simple lift up from the station concourse. The lift goes through staff only floors so does not stop in any canary wharf owned property until it reaches the station concourse (Ubless of course there are staff on board)

Also currently there are no businesses open on the floor the toilets are on

The toilets at crossrail place were built as part of the crossrail construction project. You can only leave the station through canary wharf group owned property .you wouldn't say the toilets in the station at Heathrow Airport aren't there because you are getting off the train at Heathrow Airport owned property to use them

The -3 level on Crossrail Place at Canary Wharf can also be accessed via escalators next to the gatelines.

M&S and Caffe Nero have opened up there, with Boots coming very soon.

 

[Bald Rick]

The GWR main line from Paddington to Reading is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock not underground type stock as in the 345s

The WCML from Euston to Watford is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock, not underground type stock like the 50 year old ‘vertically challenged’ trains it has now…

 

[matt_world2004]

A class 345 from reading to Abbey Wood takes approximately the same amount of time as a district line train from Ealing to Upminster is the district line then not a proper metro service?

 

[Horizon22]

Cou

Could the two Maidenhead terminators not call at Taplow and Iver given they sit at Maidenhead for up to 15m doing nothing .

As for public loos in London, one of the worlds great capital cities the provision of public loos is appalling in this day and age, surely some could have been provided at central EL stations.

The GWR main line from Paddington to Reading is not a metro line but a proper main line and needs the correct stock not underground type stock as in the 345s

1000 standing sounds ok, but what happens when one comes of the rails.

Very melodramatic “comes off the rails”. Why would that happen??

Seeing as the line really is now Reading - Abbey Wood with a focus on the London bit and the trains are fairly new, the stock won’t be changing for decades.

 

[Bald Rick]

A class 345 from reading to Abbey Wood takes approximately the same amount of time as a district line train from Ealing to Upminster is the district line then not a proper metro service?

‘Approximately the same’ actually being ‘half’.

 

[alistairlees]

‘Approximately the same’ actually being ‘half’.

Well, actually it's "about 4 minutes more on the Elizabeth line".

Reading to Abbey Wood on EL is 1h 34m
Ealing Broadway to Upminster on District is 1h 30m

 

[Mojo]

Also speed through the crossovers.

I’ve never been to Abbey Wood before but isn’t there also a set of buffers at the end of one of the platforms? The Victoria line benefits from there being an overrun siding so trains can enter the platform at much higher speeds than if there were stops or a dead end tunnel at the end.

LU also benefits from air powered points rather than Electric at locations where you need fast changes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve never been to Abbey Wood before but isn’t there also a set of buffers at the end of one of the platforms? The Victoria line benefits from there being an overrun siding so trains can enter the platform at much higher speeds than if there were stops or a dead end tunnel at the end.

LU also benefits from air powered points rather than Electric at locations where you need fast changes.

correct!

Well, actually it's "about 4 minutes more on the Elizabeth line".

Reading to Abbey Wood on EL is 1h 34m
Ealing Broadway to Upminster on District is 1h 30m

oops, I read it as comparing Ealing Bway to Whitechapel by EL and District.

Sorry, I shall administer a strong reprimand to myself

 

[43066]

I’ve never been to Abbey Wood before but isn’t there also a set of buffers at the end of one of the platforms? The Victoria line benefits from there being an overrun siding so trains can enter the platform at much higher speeds than if there were stops or a dead end tunnel at the end.

LU also benefits from air powered points rather than Electric at locations where you need fast changes.

I haven’t been for a while but, from memories of when it was being built, I understood the layout was two tracks through the station combining to a single line the east, leading to an eventual connection to the north Kent line, with buffer stops beyond that?

That might have changed since construction ended, of course.

Sorry, I shall administer a strong reprimand to myself

Oooooh matron!

 

[345 050]

I haven’t been for a while but, from memories of when it was being built, I understood the layout was two tracks through the station combining to a single line the east, leading to an eventual connection to the north Kent line, with buffer stops beyond that?

That might have changed since construction ended, of course.



Oooooh matron!

No, the layout was changed. Platform 4 is a terminus platform because there is a new low level ticket hall behind it. Platform 3 is a through platform with connection to the north Kent line.

 

[43066]

No, the layout was changed. Platform 4 is a terminus platform because there is a new low level ticket hall behind it. Platform 3 is a through platform with connection to the north Kent line.

Thanks, my (work related) knowledge there dates from circa. 2019. Strangely enough I’ve felt no desire to return to “scabby wood” since changing jobs!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, the layout was changed. Platform 4 is a terminus platform because there is a new low level ticket hall behind it. Platform 3 is a through platform with connection to the north Kent line.

Cue speculative suggestions for through services to Kent

 

[ashkeba]

The walk to the toilets at Liverpool street mainline is shorter than the walk to the westbound metropolitan lines at Liverpool street iirc .

Are there toilets for Elizabeth line passengers in Liverpool St met line platforms? If not, what has it to do with anything? Elizabeth line to mainline is a shorter walk than the London marathon, too, but that is still no comfort if you are on a train in the core and need a toilet!

 

[43066]

Cue speculative suggestions for through services to Kent

Preferably not that bit of Kent!

Half joking aside, also the practical matter of no OHLE beyond the Elizabeth Line limits. East of AW is now served by GTR, SE “classic” and HS1 via Gravesend, so doing pretty well.

 

[cygnus44]

Very melodramatic “comes off the rails”. Why would that happen??

Seeing as the line really is now Reading - Abbey Wood with a focus on the London bit and the trains are fairly new, the stock won’t be changing for decades.

Well they do some times. Clapham Jct. Potters Barr. Paddington to name a few.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The biggest GE Liz line depot in terms of numbers of drivers is Gidea Park, with Ilford and Shenfield smaller. Ilford drivers sign on in Ilford Depot.

That is four modes of transport to get to Abbey Wood. Just one of those failing would mean your driver not getting there in time, and your whole stepping back procedure could collapse. By road the AA recommended route would be Blackwall Tunnel for Ilford drivers, or Dartford Crossing for Gidea Park and Shenfield drivers. Neither can be relied upon to be congestion free.

Of course it is possible to get a driver anywhere, but you’ll need to allow more time and plan something much more robust than that.

Gidea Park is a strange place to put a big eastern driver depot tbh, but it is not too far from the M25 I suppose.
I assume you’d send drivers out in batches so they could intensify service and there’d always be one or 2 waiting for the next service if you were planning to step service up.

Cue speculative suggestions for through services to Kent

Extension to Ebbsfleet has been a widely-backed proposal for a while now. The main barrier is getting over the 3rd rail issue, modding all those 345s will be expensive.