How *should* HS2 have been built?

[Krokodil]

Fully agree, one mistake was to make Curzon Street a HS station only, meaning only HSR trains will call there.

I wasn't suggesting running the Voyagers into Curzon Street, I was suggesting running classic compatible HS2 sets to Bristol and Reading (which you'd need to wire unless you use loco drags).

 

[YorkRailFan]

I wasn't suggesting running the Voyagers into Curzon Street, I was suggesting running classic compatible HS2 sets to Bristol and Reading (which you'd need to wire unless you use loco drags).

I think a connection between the Eastern leg and the lines to Reading and Bristol would have been a great addition at the least.

 

[SynthD]

There are short term plans for Moor St to Oxford, medium term plans to (I think) move some XC there. This achieves much of the same goals.

 

[WAO]

The number of suggestions for connecting HS2 to existing lines highlights my fundamental objection to the whole project; it should have been designed to be part of the existing network, not as a separate, parallel universe. It should therefore have had its design and construction led by NR (with all its faults, the best railway administration that we possess), avoiding the over design and insurance based costs necessary with private contractors.

Then, we might have had a growing network of high speed trains rather than the stub we are facing.

WAO

 

[SynthD]

What if NR designed it as a parallel network, at least south of near Crewe. It’s all well and good imagining different experts attempting the same problem, but I think they’d find the same solution.

 

[Krokodil]

There are short term plans for Moor St to Oxford, medium term plans to (I think) move some XC there. This achieves much of the same goals.

Not much use for Bristol (and beyond). It also means that you still don't get the convenience of a through train, even if the trek across town becomes much shorter.

 

[The Planner]

There are short term plans for Moor St to Oxford, medium term plans to (I think) move some XC there. This achieves much of the same goals.

There are no short term plans for Moor St to Oxford. They needed the removal of the Reading Newcastle off the Solihull corridor.

 

[Austriantrain]

The number of suggestions for connecting HS2 to existing lines highlights my fundamental objection to the whole project; it should have been designed to be part of the existing network, not as a separate, parallel universe. It should therefore have had its design and construction led by NR (with all its faults, the best railway administration that we possess), avoiding the over design and insurance based costs necessary with private contractors.

Then, we might have had a growing network of high speed trains rather than the stub we are facing.

WAO

I agree. The original layout of HS2 makes very much sense; so does its stand-alone nature south of Birmingham, because at the usage projected, nothing else would have fitted anyway. But Birmingham, Manchester and in the original plans Leeds are an entirely other matter and better integration would certainly have helped for more public support (as it is, not much use to those many people in the Greater Birmingham region which don’t see their London offering improved if they don’t want to trek from New Street to Curzon Street…).

And the Leeds plans (now long gone of course, not surprisingly)… in a city where not enough capacity exists toward the East, not (AFAIK) to think about a Leeds to York chord on HS2 beggars belief. As did the plans to run separate Birmingham - Leeds and Birmingham - York services instead of planning frequent B‘ham - Leeds - York (and further). What makes much sense from London doesn’t make any on XC (as with the Birmingham - Manchester HS2 shuttles) and another example how HS2 would not profit nearly as many people as it could.

I have already stated what I think about trying to build a UK Shinkansen several times - a fundamentally flawed approach.

 

[Grumpy]

And the Leeds plans (now long gone of course, not surprisingly)… in a city where not enough capacity exists toward the East, not (AFAIK) to think about a Leeds to York chord on HS2 beggars belief.

The average length of trains running east of Leeds is probably around 3 carriages. There is lots of capacity for passenger growth simply by running longer trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I agree. The original layout of HS2 makes very much sense; so does its stand-alone nature south of Birmingham, because at the usage projected, nothing else would have fitted anyway. But Birmingham, Manchester and in the original plans Leeds are an entirely other matter and better integration would certainly have helped for more public support (as it is, not much use to those many people in the Greater Birmingham region which don’t see their London offering improved if they don’t want to trek from New Street to Curzon Street…).

And the Leeds plans (now long gone of course, not surprisingly)… in a city where not enough capacity exists toward the East, not (AFAIK) to think about a Leeds to York chord on HS2 beggars belief. As did the plans to run separate Birmingham - Leeds and Birmingham - York services instead of planning frequent B‘ham - Leeds - York (and further). What makes much sense from London doesn’t make any on XC (as with the Birmingham - Manchester HS2 shuttles) and another example how HS2 would not profit nearly as many people as it could.

I have already stated what I think about trying to build a UK Shinkansen several times - a fundamentally flawed approach.

Talking of a non-London centric view. I think there is a lot of scope for NPR linking Manchester to Leeds as a new high speed line. The existing lines across the Pennines are really hamstrung. Then later on HS2 can link into that getting London to further North destinations connected via the already built Manchester-Leeds.

As for North East - Southwest. Oh yes that is the middle bit of the reverse S of HS2 especially if on the back of NPR.

There is a bit of a phased approach possible here. The middle bit of the reverse S being built early because it benefits Manchester - Leeds. Let the Voyagers on it (NPR) for now as we can replace the Voyagers when the demands on NPR dictate fewer slow trains and no stopping between Manchester and Leeds in the meantime please.

HS2 Phase 2b can link into NPR at Manchester when the London end politicians can afford to splash out on another mega project (or have the bottle to get things done). Another phase is probably getting Leeds - York - Newcastle built if NPR don't get some of that achieved.

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Someone said we don't need another main line. Well we already have three pointing Northwards from London and they are all rather full. We have learn't that improving existing routes cost a lot and for less benefit - don't forget the west Coast Mainline upgrades a while back.

And I wish as many as possible were through stations not like Curzon Street resurrected from centuries ago as yet another terminus hardly any distance from London. But that's set in stone now.

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As for over-engineered - I tend to agree. I was really stuck with how much of the four track viaduct of the Ex London Broad Street route was swallowed up with massive amounts of concrete either side of the 2 track East London Railway now using it. Was there a national surplus of concrete needing to be dumped somewhere. Why ?.

 

[quantinghome]

The number of suggestions for connecting HS2 to existing lines highlights my fundamental objection to the whole project; it should have been designed to be part of the existing network, not as a separate, parallel universe. It should therefore have had its design and construction led by NR (with all its faults, the best railway administration that we possess), avoiding the over design and insurance based costs necessary with private contractors.

Then, we might have had a growing network of high speed trains rather than the stub we are facing.

WAO

NR would have used the same private companies to design and construct as they don't have those resources in-house. This is true for pretty much every rail project from a station platform extension to multi-billion line upgrades. And NR's management has so much project work to deal with any that HS2 would have swamped it. So a separate client organisation is not necessarily a bad idea. HOWEVER, it really needed to take the best practices from HS1, which it singularly failed to do. Maybe those lessons would have been understood by NR better than an organisation directly answering to the DfT.

HS2 IS part of the existing network. It takes the long distance trains from the existing network and puts them on a parallel alignment, allowing many more services to run on both the new and existing lines. By their very nature, these services don't need to interface very much with existing lines, but they do where they need to, so that services can run directly from HS2 onto the existing network. Where practicable, HS2 stations are essentially expansions of NR stations. So the HS2 lines are essential additional tracks added to the existing network, albeit not following existing alignments. HS2 is also designed to be built as a growing network, and probably still will be. Personally, I think this should have been formally acknowledged and the entire thing split into a series of self-contained projects under the overall programme, much as the motorway network was built. But in its final form it would still essentially be the same as HS2 in full.

 

[WAO]

Maybe those lessons would have been understood by NR better than an organisation directly answering to the DfT.

My point. NR would also be more used to discipline in specifying, spending and assessing risk.

Where practicable, HS2 stations are essentially expansions of NR stations.

Old Oak Common?, Curzon Street? (The French Managed with Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon)

WAO

 

[stuu]

Old Oak Common?, Curzon Street? (The French Managed with Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon)

WAO

The French managed with Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon by building the RER. They also built a new station in central(ish) Lyon for LGV SE

 

[JamesT]

My point. NR would also be more used to discipline in specifying, spending and assessing risk.

Where was that discipline during the electrification of the GWML? I’m failing to see any actual evidence Network Rail would have done a better job.
One of the previous chairmen of HS2, David Higgins, had previously been chair of Network Rail. The current Managing Director and Civils Director worked on HS1. So there’s certainly relevant experience there.

 

[zwk500]

The French managed with Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon by building the RER. They also built a new station in central(ish) Lyon for LGV SE

Key point - you'd have needed something at Birmingham to take local train out of New Street to release space for HS2, and you'd have needed a crossrail 3 or the Tring branch of XR to take trains out of Euston (although stuffing trains into Euston as one big classic station would have been a ridiculously silly idea).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Key point - you'd have needed something at Birmingham to take local train out of New Street to release space for HS2, and you'd have needed a crossrail 3 or the Tring branch of XR to take trains out of Euston (although stuffing trains into Euston as one big classic station would have been a ridiculously silly idea).

Something at Birmingham should have been built anyway. High speed rail works better if suburban rail is upgraded and properly linked to it.

NR would have used the same private companies to design and construct as they don't have those resources in-house

I had a feeling this was the case. How does it work in Germany? When I was in Berlin last year I found it quite pleasing to see a tall, corporate skyscraper with “DB” proudly adorning the top. It must be a bigger operation internally than NR. Imagine seeing a similar building with the BR logo towering over a British city!

 

[The Planner]

Something at Birmingham should have been built anyway. High speed rail works better if suburban rail is upgraded and properly linked to it.



I had a feeling this was the case. How does it work in Germany? When I was in Berlin last year I found it quite pleasing to see a tall, corporate skyscraper with “DB” proudly adorning the top. It must be a bigger operation internally than NR. Imagine seeing a similar building with the BR logo towering over a British city!

Pretty sure Birmingham did. You had Stanier House (now demolished). Not sure if Rail House in Crewe ever had a logo on it.

 

[zwk500]

Something at Birmingham should have been built anyway. High speed rail works better if suburban rail is upgraded and properly linked to it.

The walk from New Street or Moor Street to Curzon street is probably not much longer than, say, finding the right part of King's Cross St Pancras tube station.

I had a feeling this was the case. How does it work in Germany? When I was in Berlin last year I found it quite pleasing to see a tall, corporate skyscraper with “DB” proudly adorning the top. It must be a bigger operation internally than NR. Imagine seeing a similar building with the BR logo towering over a British city!

NR certainly have fairly big corporate logos on the Quadrant, their big office in Milton Keynes, and of course Gatwick had the largest BR double arrow on the station roof.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Pretty sure Birmingham did. You had Stanier House (now demolished). Not sure if Rail House in Crewe ever had a logo on it.

There's that building in Swindon too with a huge BR logo on the top. One of my earliest memories was looking up at that logo from a train carriage and wondering what it meant.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Key point - you'd have needed something at Birmingham to take local train out of New Street to release space for HS2, and you'd have needed a crossrail 3 or the Tring branch of XR to take trains out of Euston (although stuffing trains into Euston as one big classic station would have been a ridiculously silly idea).

For Birmingham a through HS2 station nearer to New Street / Moor Street would have been nice. I think the area on the South East side of Dean Street looks ripe for development. Station with a line running South East to North West

 

[zwk500]

For Birmingham a through HS2 station nearer to New Street / Moor Street would have been nice. I think the area on the South East side of Dean Street looks ripe for development. Station with a line running South East to North West

But how do you get it in and out of the city as a whole?

 

[RobShipway]

The walk from New Street or Moor Street to Curzon street is probably not much longer than, say, finding the right part of King's Cross St Pancras tube station.

NR certainly have fairly big corporate logos on the Quadrant, their big office in Milton Keynes, and of course Gatwick had the largest BR double arrow on the station roof.

Gatwick still does have the largest BR double Arrow in it's roof if you watch the latest Geoff Marshall Youtube video on Gatwick Airport:

The double arrow is shown right at the end.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But how do you get it in and out of the city as a whole?

I think tunneling is inevitable. To the South - not much more required than for Curzon Street I suspect,. I would have thought an approach along the Bordesley yards area maybe ?. But to the North - plenty depending on how much of a curve is allowed for to get to the Tame Valley. Lets face is HS1 got to St Pancras via a long tunnel from Dagenham to St Pancras.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

But how do you get it in and out of the city as a whole?

Having mapped such a route out many times in Google Earth (I know) I think that it's just about possible to build some sort of alignment over the M6, but it would require the demolition of Bescot Stadium and a fair few residential properties to reduce tunnelling. Although it would allow a connection to NR tracks near Walsall to allow high-speed trains to reach Wolverhampton.

 

[RobShipway]

Having mapped such a route out many times in Google Earth (I know) I think that it's just about possible to build some sort of alignment over the M6, but it would require the demolition of Bescot Stadium and a fair few residential properties to reduce tunnelling. Although it would allow a connection to NR tracks near Walsall to allow high-speed trains to reach Wolverhampton.

So where do Walsall Football club and Aston Villa Women's football team play their home matches?

How much would the people owning the residential properties be compensated?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Having mapped such a route out many times in Google Earth (I know) I think that it's just about possible to build some sort of alignment over the M6, but it would require the demolition of Bescot Stadium and a fair few residential properties to reduce tunnelling. Although it would allow a connection to NR tracks near Walsall to allow high-speed trains to reach Wolverhampton.

Yes. I would terminate London to Birmingham services at Wolverhampton (non HS2 station). Possibly beyond (e.g. Stafford).

So where do Walsall Football club and Aston Villa Women's football team play their home matches?

How much would the people owning the residential properties be compensated?

It is never going to be a perfect solution unless you avoid the cities all together !.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

So where do Walsall Football club and Aston Villa Women's football team play their home matches?

That I can't tell you. Nor can I answer your other question. I could make the argument that, being next to an enormous motorway junction and underneath a power transmission line, the land value couldn't be terribly high and so the residential compensation wouldn't be enormous, but I wouldn't want to offend the good people of Bescot with such an assumption.

 

[SynthD]

Yes. I would terminate London to Birmingham services at Wolverhampton

That’s a lot of cost for a tiny improvement. Through trains should go to Scotland, but Wolverhampton isn’t even out of the county.

For a comparison, how long would a reversal at Curzon St take as part of a through service?

 

[Snow1964]

Not much use for Bristol (and beyond). It also means that you still don't get the convenience of a through train, even if the trek across town becomes much shorter.

That's where I think they forgot about large parts of the country.

Probably should have been a spur to join East West rail (I mean a proper high speed spur, not a low speed maintenance spur), through the enlarged Oxford station, then another high speed cut off from near Abingdon to Wooten Bassett with connections to both existing lines.

What we have ended up with is a line from West London to West Midlands that can't easily be used by any train to East Midlands or Yorkshire or anything south or west of Birmingham. Basically something that can only ever serve 15% of population without a messy slow connection.

 

[zwk500]

I think tunneling is inevitable. To the South - not much more required than for Curzon Street I suspect,.

Considering Curzon street is approached largely through a Viaduct not a tunnel, I think there would be more.

I would have thought an approach along the Bordesley yards area maybe ?. But to the North - plenty depending on how much of a curve is allowed for to get to the Tame Valley.

Remember you've also got to have a whole new 350kph alignment from the current line of HS2.

Lets face is HS1 got to St Pancras via a long tunnel from Dagenham to St Pancras.

2 Long tunnels - there's a break at Stratford. Also it was at the cost of lowering the design speed, an acceptable compromise to remove international trains from the classic network. The design considerations for HS2 are slightly different.

That’s a lot of cost for a tiny improvement. Through trains should go to Scotland, but Wolverhampton isn’t even out of the county.

For a comparison, how long would a reversal at Curzon St take as part of a through service?

With ATO and a driver step up I suspect the actual reversal would take 5 minutes at most, which considering a through dwell would be 3 minutes or so isn't a massive extension. The additional journey time to/from Delta junction is probably a bit bigger, although that is then balanced by the extension to journey times for non-Birmingham trains now needing to run through the city centre tunnelled section.