How to provide a location to 999

[etr221]

I recall an amusing incident in my local walking club where somebody used an app to find nearest postcode to a car park for those with sat navs. The car park in question was on an open moorland section of road with no buildings anywhere near by on the Oldham Holmfirth road. What this application did was pick up the postcode of a remote farmhouse that was only accessible by dirt track road from Marsden and the only way though was a mountain footpath or a very long drive around.

! Just why postcodes are not a good universal choice for giving locations. They were designed by the Post Office for its purposes (and nobody else's), and are only widely used because they are widely known.

For getting help in emergency, to my mind AML is the thing to go for - where the phone sends its location, without caller involvement - or something like SARLOC (which sends a text to phone, triggering a web app to do the same).

There are lots of apps that the user could have on their phone to give their location, pretty well all of which will do the job as long as emergency control can handle them, but they all require caller action, and have one sort of disadvantage or another. (See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1XqCKE7GjIIdACvNo-FJzSF0CatAO3WX5PJa_9nnLTqE/pubhtml for an incomplete list...)

And if they don't have a smart phone with GPS, then they're back to reading maps and signs, and looking round to describe their location...

Following najaB's comment, the big problem with w3w is that is only usable via their services (without them, it's just a load of meaningless words); and they are out to make money, which they do by charging for service to decode whichever.three.words back into something more meaningful (and aggressively defending their intellectual property to stop you doing it yourself).

Alternative addressing systems have attempted to increase human memorability, verifiability and machine readability. Notable examples are What3words and Open Location Code. However, attempts to create a broadly accepted standard around them have failed to materialize as these systems are either proprietary, like Google, and/or open source projects lacking economic incentives. What3Words uses unique three-word addresses to divide the world into a grid of 3✕3 m2 squares. In its system, an address such as Banana.Radio.Scent could describe an area within a field for example. Though What3Words may hope to become a global standard, it is still a centralized addressing system that charges a license fee. (From https://foam.space/publicAssets/FOAM_Whitepaper_May2018.pdf )

[Edited to add quote at end]

 

[Belperpete]

No. When you dial 999 your phone will automatically turn on high-precision geolocation and use whichever method gives the highest precision (usually WiFi network or GPS).

I presume that google maps is giving my location by GPS as there is no WiFi signal available. High precision GPS will surely just give the wrong location more precisely.

 

[najaB]

I presume that google maps is giving my location by GPS as there is no WiFi signal available. High precision GPS will surely just give the wrong location more precisely.

If your position is off by more than 10m or so then the phone is not using GPS, or has a very weak signal lock. A typical single-chip GPS solution as used in a mobile handset is more than capable of determining your location ±2m.

 

[Belperpete]

If your position is off by more than 10m or so then the phone is not using GPS, or has a very weak signal lock. A typical single-chip GPS solution as used in a mobile handset is more than capable of determining your location ±2m.

Things can cause GPS to get a location wrong, such as a weak signal lock as you say. I suspect that the problem with my house is that it is in the lea of a mountain, which blocks some satellite signals, and gives reflected signals from others. My phone certainly isn't getting its location from WiFi, so if not GPS, where is it getting the wrong location from? It is concerning that this wrong location could be automatically sent to the emergency services if I needed assistance.

 

[najaB]

My phone certainly isn't getting its location from WiFi, so if not GPS, where is it getting the wrong location from?

If it's off by a few kilometres, then it will be the location of the serving mobile phone mast. If it's tens of kilometres then it will be bad geo-IP data.

 

[Belperpete]

If it's off by a few kilometres, then it will be the location of the serving mobile phone mast. If it's tens of kilometres then it will be bad geo-IP data.

The mobile phone mast is only a few hundred yards away from my house, giving excellent signal. The location gmaps gives is in an area served by a totally different mast, that I would be extremely surprised if I were getting any signal from.

 

[najaB]

The mobile phone mast is only a few hundred yards away from my house, giving excellent signal. The location gmaps gives is in an area served by a totally different mast, that I would be extremely surprised if I were getting any signal from.

That is very strange then as the methods used are (in decreasing order of accuracy): GPS (±2m), WiFi (±200m), serving cell location (accuracy varies but typically ±2000m, geo-IP (accuracy varies wildly, from a few hundred metres to continent-level).

Are you 100% sure that you're served by that particular mast? Might it belong to a different network?

 

[si404]

I can see the problem with providing a grid reference, in that not only is it quite long

It's fewer characters than 3 words, even if it's more syllables.

and not exactly clear what information you are to provide - I would say that someone who doesn’t fully understand it would they actually know to provide the two letters as well as the 6 digits?

If you are using an app (rather than a map), it will give you the letters automatically. But like W3W not repeating nearby (though the example given upthread of less than 20km is too close), there's not really areas where you might be in one of two places 100km+ away from each other - hence why those using papers maps simply drop the letters.

A 6 digit grid reference only provides you with detail down to a square 100m by 100m.

Hence why 8 or even 10 digit ones exist (and apps are happy to give these). 8 is, in my experience, unnecessary most of the time (10 certainly is), but the default of 6 does sometimes lack - eg in woods at night where a hectare is going to take some time to search.

Exactly and even of those who walk in remote areas carrying a map few can actually read it propoerly, let alone provide a grid reference from it.

But they can provide a grid reference from an app just as easily as W3W. Easier in fact, as there's more apps that can do it and they are much smaller than W3W (quicker to download if you don't have it and 999 wants you to download it over what might be a crummy internet connection) - W3W is 50MB, whereas OS ones can be as small as 'Grid Reference', which is just 861kB, though most are in the 3-5MB range.

You can also type in the 3 words and covert to GPS co-ordinates, 25 of each free at a time.

And we've hit the problem - '25 of each free at a time'. The emergency services will be bulk users. There's life on the line. The company can milk a lot of money off them once its convinced people that it is the standard for geolocation...

The Emergency Services are coping really rather well with this and promoting its use

Other than some 999 call receivers, no one at the Emergency Services actually is promoting it. You got the right word with "coping".

W3W promote it -> people use it -> emergency services cope with it -> W3W get free publicity from the press -> more people use it -> emergency services end up having to pay W3W in order to cope with it -> a cycle is created where W3W makes loads of money.

 

[najaB]

The company can milk a lot of money off them once its convinced people that it is the standard for geolocation...

Exactly! Like I said before, my issue with W3W isn't the technology, it's the underhanded use of psychology to scam convince people to use its service, in turn forcing the emergency services to pay to use their API.

 

[bspahh]

Exactly! Like I said before, my issue with W3W isn't the technology, it's the underhanded use of psychology to scam convince people to use its service, in turn forcing the emergency services to pay to use their API.

This story says that BT handled ~33 million 999 calls in 2018, and that 70% of them are from a smart phone.

Confusion continues over when to ring 999, survey reveals

ADULTS in Scotland have, on average, called the 999 emergency number once in their lives.

www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk

https://what3words.com/select-plan?currency=GBP#view-tiers says that it costs £235 a month for a license to handle 75000 location queries (0.9 million a year).

For a lot of calls, the street address will be fine for the location. If you have the GPS turned on, on a mobile phone, and the location is sent automatically. I don't think what3words will make a fortune from licensing fees from 999 calls. The importance for them is for the marketing exposure.

 

[najaB]

I don't think what3words will make a fortune from licensing fees from 999 calls. The importance for them is for the marketing exposure.

The problem is that if the caller gives a W3W address then the 9's operator has to look it up. They are not allowed to just go with the location data provided automatically.

 

[fireftrm]

And we've hit the problem - '25 of each free at a time'. The emergency services will be bulk users. There's life on the line. The company can milk a lot of money off them once its convinced people that it is the standard for geolocation...
Other than some 999 call receivers, no one at the Emergency Services actually is promoting it. You got the right word with "coping".

W3W promote it -> people use it -> emergency services cope with it -> W3W get free publicity from the press -> more people use it -> emergency services end up having to pay W3W in order to cope with it -> a cycle is created where W3W makes loads of money.

Emergency Services DO promote it and the cost of their w3w subscription is minimal in comparison to other paid services they use

 

[si404]

the cost of their w3w subscription is minimal in comparison to other paid services they use

That's because W3W are still in their 'build a customer base' phase. When they get to the 'now we are established' stage, then they can milk it.

Of course, OS grid references are free to use, take less time to download the app, etc - if the emergency services are going to promote an app-based geolocation service, it should be that, rather than W3W.

To throw W3W's marketing strategy against them: When lives are on the line and time is of the essence, why waste those vital seconds downloading their app, when ones a 10th of the size work just as well!?!?

 

[najaB]

... and the cost of their w3w subscription is minimal in comparison to other paid services they use

Today.

 

[mmh]

This feels like it would be better part of a phone's operating system and an open standard rather than a proprietary third party commercial service, and conveniently it is on most people's phones and the information is passed without the caller having to do anything or even knowing it is.

 

[najaB]

This feels like it would be better part of a phone's operating system and an open standard rather than a proprietary third party commercial service, and conveniently it is on most people's phones and the information is passed without the caller having to do anything or even knowing it is.

I believe that by next year it's a requirement across the EU.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Emergency Services DO promote it and the cost of their w3w subscription is minimal in comparison to other paid services they use

Other than some staff promoting it unofficially (and being featured in adverts in uniform *sigh*) it's not promoted by the emergency services.

Multiple Scottish Mountain Rescue teams have actually warned against it's use.

 

[etr221]

This feels like it would be better part of a phone's operating system and an open standard rather than a proprietary third party commercial service, and conveniently it is on most people's phones and the information is passed without the caller having to do anything or even knowing it is.

I believe that by next year it's a requirement across the EU.

Are we talking about AML here? - in which case I believe it is already effectively (it is actually a 'service', sitting in the grey area between OS and app) part of the Apple iOS and Android phone operating systems (and has been for a while). EU requirements are that by December this year, all EU members' emergency services should be making use if it (UK already is - I get the impression that this is the more difficult side), and March next year all new Smart phones should have it.
For nerds on such things, see Emergency Number Association AML Focus Page , their 2019 report card and Conference Panel Discussion (This last includes (from 48:45) guy from Scottish Ambulance with their experience - who also mentions w3w. Surprisingly interesting. Quote: "The handset knows best where the handset is" - also (paraphrased) 'seconds count')

If, on the other hand, about W3W, yes, it should be an open standard - but is a proprietary third party commercial service (which hopes it will be on everyone's phone) - and which is aimed at making it easier for the caller (AML makes it even easier, by cutting them out of the loop)

 

[si404]

Are we talking about AML here?

Yes.

The EU requiring it is mostly about the back end rather than the phones - of the 32 current EEA nations, 14 haven't yet appeared on Wikipedia's list of countries that have deployed it: Bulgaria, Cyprus, France, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain and Switzerland. After all, it's all well and good that the phones can do it, but useless unless the Emergency Services can use it.

The US, New Zealand, Mexico and the UAE are non-European countries that have implemented it. Australia plans (planned?) on doing it this year.

 

[fireftrm]

Other than some staff promoting it unofficially (and being featured in adverts in uniform *sigh*) it's not promoted by the emergency services.

Multiple Scottish Mountain Rescue teams have actually warned against it's use.

Yes they do - I know first hand and can proivide way more examples, should you wish, but here are a couple Derbyshire FRS encourages you to download W3W Notts FRS news - how W3W is helping them

 

[fireftrm]

PS a quick check shows how many news stories there of of Scottish MRTs rescuing people who'd used w3w as the method of giving their location, just omne about how it may slow response and that based on the use of a map/mapping system being better

 

[fireftrm]

That's because W3W are still in their 'build a customer base' phase. When they get to the 'now we are established' stage, then they can milk it.

Of course, OS grid references are free to use, take less time to download the app, etc - if the emergency services are going to promote an app-based geolocation service, it should be that, rather than W3W.

To throw W3W's marketing strategy against them: When lives are on the line and time is of the essence, why waste those vital seconds downloading their app, when ones a 10th of the size work just as well!?!?

You may be surprised to hear that one of theose other resources that costs the Emergency Service control centre a lot more is OS mapping, they do not have it free and so couildn't use the grid reference without the mapping software and the links with their other command and control software - very expensive indeed. w3w's businnes model isn't to get it embedded within the 999 services then charge more, they are after the businesses like delivery companies and for others to use it to give directions to their businesses - that's where they will (if they do) make the money

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Yes they do - I know first hand and can proivide way more examples, should you wish, but here are a couple Derbyshire FRS encourages you to download W3W Notts FRS news - how W3W is helping them

Was not aware of that, apologies

PS a quick check shows how many news stories there of of Scottish MRTs rescuing people who'd used w3w as the method of giving their location, just omne about how it may slow response and that based on the use of a map/mapping system being better

On the training courses I've been on the importance of being able to provide a clear grid reference has been emphasised. For this purpose mountain rescue recommend good map and compass skills, carrying a dedicated GPS device and/or using the OS Locate app on your phone, or any other app that can provide an OS Grid reference. They also use technology like SARLOC which can locate people via SMS and the Text 999 service.

The collective opinion among most people in the outdoor community, and the mountain rescue teams who have been locating and rescuing people from remote locations for many many years, is that W3W works (in some/most circumstances) but it's proprietary technology that shouldn't replace the use of OS Grid References or any existing navigational tool. It doesn't offer any benefits over existing technology, it's just repackaged.

W3W has some sophisticated marketing and heavily promotes it's success stories, so you'll find stories of it being used very successfully by the emergency services. The teams are absolutely dedicated to saving lives and of course they will use it if they're provided a location via the app. For Mountain Rescue purposes or for locating people in remote areas though it's reinventing the wheel, albeit in a restrictive proprietary package.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Another glaring flaw in the system is that the words and locations in W3W are different in different languages, yet end users might not know this. I didn't until I found out by accident a few moments ago.

The words used aren't even translations of their English equivalents but entirely different. If someone who has the app in a different language on their phone then it's going to be incredibly difficult to figure out where they are. Since the UK is a very multicultural society and also because many incidents involve tourists this is a huge problem!

To give an example from this website,

Numbers are fairly universal. Lots of countries use 0-9. English words are not universal. How does W3W deal with this?

Is “cat.dog.goose” straight translated into French? No! Each language has its own word list.

There is no way to translate between languages. You have to beg W3W for permission for access to their API. They do not publish their word lists or the mappings between them.

So, if I want to tell a French speaker where ///mile.crazy.shade is, I have to use ///embouchure.adjuger.saladier

Loosely translated back as ///mouth.award.bowl an entirely different location!

You’re not allowed to know what word lists W3W use. They take a paternalistic attitude to creating their lists – they know best. You cannot propose changes.

 

[si404]

so couildn't use the grid reference without the mapping software

Nonsense. The grid reference is an open system that can be easily converted back to lat/lon for use on any mapping software. If Google Mapping was their mapping service of choice, then they could use that with Grid References without any payment to OS.

The Emergency Services pay OS loads of money for the mapping software. They need some mapping software to put locations on the map, no matter what form they come in. W3W locations, postcodes, addresses, whatever come in - it goes on the OS map (but the conversion from w3w into lat/lon isn't free, unlike Grid References).

w3w's businnes model isn't to get it embedded within the 999 services then charge more they are after the businesses like delivery companies and for others to use it to give directions to their businesses - that's where they will (if they do) make the money

Then why is all the marketing about it being life-or-death emergency situations?

I've not seen any w3w marketing, or people excited, about it as an addressing system outside the developing world. Not least because the addressing systems the developed world has are superior.

PS - it doesn't give directions to businesses or tell you anything about where it is in relation to other stuff - mapping companies do!

 

[najaB]

The grid reference is an open system that can be easily converted back to lat/lon for use on any mapping software.

Indeed - you want to do it yourself? Download the code and roll your own. For example, from GitHub (https://github.com/dvdoug/PHPCoord).

Try that with W3W.

Then why is all the marketing about it being life-or-death emergency situations?

Fear is good for business.

 

[fireftrm]

Nonsense. The grid reference is an open system that can be easily converted back to lat/lon for use on any mapping software. If Google Mapping was their mapping service of choice, then they could use that with Grid References without any payment to OS.

The Emergency Services pay OS loads of money for the mapping software. They need some mapping software to put locations on the map, no matter what form they come in. W3W locations, postcodes, addresses, whatever come in - it goes on the OS map (but the conversion from w3w into lat/lon isn't free, unlike Grid References).
Then why is all the marketing about it being life-or-death emergency situations?

I've not seen any w3w marketing, or people excited, about it as an addressing system outside the developing world. Not least because the addressing systems the developed world has are superior.

PS - it doesn't give directions to businesses or tell you anything about where it is in relation to other stuff - mapping companies do!

Actually I've spokne to senior colleagues and w3w is completely free with all its components to the Emergency Services, they do pay for mapping software and OS licences. w3w to lat/long is free. The marketing is to get the public to download it and then, as they have it, to use it for contact with those who will pay - like UBER Eats, Just Eat, Deliveroo who are their target for paying customers. If you think that commercial interests don't give apps for free think again - Facebook, twitter........

 

[najaB]

...they do pay for mapping software and OS licences...

Of course they pay for mapping - nobody provides reliable, commercial mapping for free

If you think that commercial interests don't give apps for free think again - Facebook, twitter........

Both of which make money by selling ads (and personal data).

 

[Domh245]

and then, as they have it, to use it for contact with those who will pay - like UBER Eats, Just Eat, Deliveroo who are their target for paying customers.

Do you really think this will happen? Given that those food delivery companies already have google maps integration, I fail to see what advantage w3w would have over just a street address. Not to mention that an address is also far more useful, flat 27 is flat 27 and you'll either know that it's flat 7 on the second floor or there's a buzzer saying flat 27 that you can press; banana/dingbat/wotsit is a 9sqm plot of land with no reference to if you are on the first or fifteenth floor, or even what side of the building has the door in it) The only real advantage would be something like Uber (the taxi side) where you can get it to pick you up from an arbitrary point on the road, rather than a house number or whatever, but seeing as the pickup point is set by dragging a pin over a map...

 

[etr221]

If you think that commercial interests don't give apps for free think again - Facebook, twitter........

As they say, if you're not the customer, you're the product... (Facebook, etc. look at what you're doing, and say 'who wants to advertise to this guy?') W3W's service is more valuable to those who will pay if they can say 'millions have downloaded it' - if you're one of them, you're part of W3W's offering.

Just wondering if those emergency services (like Notts & Debyshire FRSs) who participated in W3W's #KnowExactlyWhere campaign got anything for their efforts...