How was passenger travel handled during WW2?

[Calthrop]

London Transport had a cartoon of a fellow called Billy Brown of London Town who gave helpful advice. The poem accompanying one cartoon about a chap who is pulling holes in the blast netting ended: ‘I trust you’ll pardon my correction/That stuff is there for your protection.’ It was common for people to add: ‘I thank you for your information/But I can’t see the bloody station.’

I think I've read that LT's "Billy Brown" campaign backfired, somewhat: people -- as per your abovementioned "parody" -- came to detest the bumptious, officious little twerp.

Oh, I'm no anti-Polish, not at all. Wonderful fighters in WW2.
Just there was (an understandable) hatred for things German after the murderous invasion of 1/9/39 and general occupation afterwards. From what I've read, in Fighter Command in particular, while the Brits saw shooting down Luftwaffe planes as a kind of job that had to be done, the Poles just wanted to "kill Germans".

[The following, posted about 1030 on Wed. June 5th]: It seems that I missed your above post, as of its appearing on Monday -- sorry ! Wasn't suggesting any prejudice on your part, against the nation concerned, and its people; just that I find it cheering to hear of -- and sometimes to fantasise about -- the occasional instances of kindness and compassion, which do occur between folk on opposing sides in even the most cruel and hideous of armed conflicts. Poland had, for sure, an utterly hellish time in World War II: the way the Poles very largely felt -- as you describe -- about the "neighbours" concerned, is highly understandable.

I've always had a, perhaps a bit sentimental, strong liking for Poland and its people -- while being aware of their flaws. This in part -- and accounting in part, for my having made many visits to the country -- to do with its having been the last country in Europe to use steam on its State rail system, in regular everyday service ...

Re Poland / WW2: have lately been reading a "novelised" rendering of true events: concerning the heroic Dr. Janusz Korczak, who ran an orphanage in Warsaw for Jewish children, and when his charges were apprehended and taken off to be put to death, insisted on accompanying them and dying with them, although he might have had a good chance of saving his own life. Excellently written and highly readable; but I found its portrayal of how things were in Poland in the years 1939 -- 42 (the latter, the year of the guy's death) so harrowing, that I broke off two-thirds through the book, leaving the rest unread -- feeling that the temptation to top myself, should probably not be encouraged.

 

[StephenHunter]

That blast netting stayed on some of the stock until scrapping, I believe, as it was stuck on so firmly. Is there any on the surviving 1938 stock?

 

[devon_belle]

I believe the speed limit on the SR (and possibly other regions?) was restricted to 60 mph during wartime, which as others said was due to poor track conditions and to save fuel. I think this lasted for a little while after the war too, which is why timetables took a long time to get back to prewar levels.

A result of blackouts was the further proliferation of white lines on platform edges (which were originally introduced to the mainline network in 1937 to help in foggy conditions on SR electric lines I believe). Some seem to have been dashed and others continuous.

Various wartime spurs and yards were built or reinstated, but this would not have impacted passenger travel unless they were used for diversionary purposes.

One story is that soldiers visiting the rifle range at Roundball Hill near Honiton would pull the communication cord near the site of the demolished Roundball Halt (1906–1921) – a good way down the line from Honiton – to get off and avoid the walk. After a few instances, the guards became wise to this and one of them disconnected the cable, yet a few soldiers still jumped from the train while it was at speed, resulting in their deaths.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I believe the speed limit on the SR (and possibly other regions?) was restricted to 60 mph during wartime, which as others said was due to poor track conditions and to save fuel. ...

I believe (probaby 'cos I read it in here some years ago) that the governing body of the railways in wartime (Transport Ministry? War Ministry?) slapped a 60 mph limit across the entire system in 1939, at the onset of war, to save fuel (the track was still fine, at least in the early days).

This much to the annoyance of most operations chiefs of the GWR, LMS and LNER. This body was, supposedly, advised by an SR man, who didn't think it would cause many problems, which was largely true for the SR, but not for the other constituent railway companies of the day, for whom it caused serious issues regarding schedules and shift workings.

I claim no specialist knowledge, and am open to correction, of course.

 

[Gloster]

I believe (probaby 'cos I read it in here some years ago) that the governing body of the railways in wartime (Transport Ministry? War Ministry?) slapped a 60 mph limit across the entire system in 1939, at the onset of war, to save fuel (the track was still fine, at least in the early days).

I think it was the Railway Executive Committee, which was subordinate to the Ministry of Transport until 1941, after which the MoT amalgamated with the Ministry of Shipping to form the Ministry of War Transport. It is possible that another reason for the speed restriction was to ease operation of trains.

 

[Rescars]

I believe (probaby 'cos I read it in here some years ago) that the governing body of the railways in wartime (Transport Ministry? War Ministry?) slapped a 60 mph limit across the entire system in 1939, at the onset of war, to save fuel (the track was still fine, at least in the early days).

This much to the annoyance of most operations chiefs of the GWR, LMS and LNER. This body was, supposedly, advised by an SR man, who didn't think it would cause many problems, which was largely true for the SR, but not for the other constituent railway companies of the day, for whom it caused serious issues regarding schedules and shift workings.

I claim no specialist knowledge, and am open to correction, of course.

As a bit of background, the chairman of the REC was Sir Ralph Wedgewood of the LNER and his deputy was Sir James Milne of the GWR. The SR's representative was Gilbert Szlumper, who had been Secretary to the REC during WW1, and left the SR shortly after the REC was reformed in 1939 for war service initially at the War Office, followed by positions at the Ministry of Transport followed by the Ministry of Supply. He ended up as a Major-General.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

60 MPH would almost certainly have been mandated on the grounds of "capacity" - for example no need for "double blocking" as on the ECML for high speed trains in peacetime - these trains would have been withdrawn in any case , as well as on the grounds of maximising capacity for engine power. Wear and tear obviously a matter for consideration on what turned out to be not an "over by Christmas war - this was a long haul.

Finally - the real difficulties of operating in blackout - a serious collision between a double headed at Bletchley and the station pilot doing some shunting the early days of war was as a result of the former running through about 4 red signals...........

 

[Taunton]

60mph limit would have been pretty arbitrary anyway as almost all locomotives then, even express ones, were not fitted with speedometers.

Among other changes, one still with us was the abolition of First Class within London, though nowhere else. This accounts for why London suburban services have been standard class only ever since, whereas elsewhere on such services First Class carried on, sometimes patchily.

London had more changes to the passenger network than elsewhere; both the West London, and the North London east of Dalston, lost their services, and only in quite recent times have these been reinstated.

 

[StephenHunter]

Among other changes, one still with us was the abolition of First Class within London, though nowhere else.

London was rather smaller then, mind. I know 317s had First Class.

 

[Taunton]

London was rather smaller then, mind.

Actually not, the London Travel Area was larger, broadly indicated by the London bus area, which was the London red buses, plus the outer area green buses, still London Transport, which stretched well into the adjacent counties, to Slough, Watford, etc. Services wholly within this area were required to remove first class. The restriction was removed after WW2 but the broad approach has remained.

 

[Springs Branch]

I wonder if one of the features of wartime rail travel would have been as follows:-

- You're waiting on the platform at a normally quiet, possibly rural station at a certain time of day.
- You're surprised by the steady stream of people arriving, building up to a large crowd on the platform.
- A passenger train pulls in unexpectedly. It's not shown in the normal timetable and its destination is not announced.
- Everyone except you purposefully gets on board. Many seem to know each other, and they obviously all know where it's going.

Alternatively:-
- You're waiting pretty much on your own at the same quiet station.
- A passenger train appears unexpectedly. It's not shown in the normal timetable and its destination is not announced.
- Dozens and dozens of people disgorge from the train and disperse in groups from the station.
- Train chuffs off to destinations unknown.

Both scenarios involved special workers' trains to / from the 'secret' munitions factories which operated around the country. Often on the western side of Britain and in remote or obscure locations to avoid the attention of German spies, the Luftwaffe, or in case of some catastrophic accident with their explosives.

Large numbers of workers were employed from a fairly wide catchment area, needing multiple trains per day at shift changeover times and the factories tended to operate 24 hours per day. Often the ordnance factories had their own specially-built station (e.g. the substantial halt at Chorley ROF or two separate stations on different rail routes at Risley ROF).

Some of these factories - particularly Chorley ROF - remained as major operations well after the end of WW2. IIRC, the last regular scheduled passenger trains over the Boars Head to Adlington Junction line were "unadvertised" weekday trains between Wigan NW and Chorley ROF Halt.

I wonder:-

• Whether you were handed a "secret" train timetable when you first started work at the ordnance factories? Or if the special trains' routes and times were handed down verbally to the public (a bit like local bus timetables seemed to be in my youth).
• How you knew which platform to go to if - for example - you arrived at Wigan NW looking for the unadvertised train to Chorley ROF? Did the ticket inspector on the barrier whisper it out of the side of his mouth when he saw where you were going?
• Did the booking office sell tickets to 'all comers', or did you need some special authority to travel to the special stations? Did any restrictions change between wartime and peacetime? I did hear it was impossible to buy a ticket at Chorley ROF, as everyone was expected to have arrived there from their home station with a return ticket.

Has anything ever been published focusing on these World War 2 special trains?

 

[Gloster]

A couple of comments. I think that trains used to run from major towns and cities to the ROF: trains came from as far as Newport and, I think, Cardiff to Glascoed. I think that you travelled on passes issued at the ROF and there was a certain amount of security on leaving the platforms at the factory: you could probably get on the train to get there, but not off the platform on arrival. I have read that timetables were posted at the ROF: the ROF and the railway worked out between them what were practical times for shift changeovers and then both operated to these. If they had to change one or the other, they put up notices and you were expected to familiarise yourself. All this is mostly from general reading, but a bit in particular about Glascoed..

 

[John Luxton]

Many internees (enemy aliens who happened to be in the UK in 1939), and some PoWs, were transported to Canada and Australia, notably on the infamous "Dunera", (450 Pows, 2,000 internees) whose crew were court-martialled after their maltreatment of the passengers came to light.

Some of the passengers had already survived being torpedoed on a ship bound for Canada, and returned to the UK

The Isle of Man was another popular internment destination with camps being set up in Port Erin, Ramsey, Douglas and Peel. Much use was made of the promenade hotels which had large bardbed wire fences erected around the front supported by concrete posts. The patches on the post holes on Douglas Promenade only disappeared in 2018/19 when the promenade roadway was rebuilt and the tramway rails relaid. Obviously the Douglas promenade horse trams didn't run during the war. As well as enemy aliens being sent to the island many members of the British Union of Facists had "free holiday" on the Isle of Man which was at the time one of Britain and Irelands top holiday destinations.

Those internees destined for Port Erin in particular were conveyed by train and met at Port Erin Station. Some years ago Isle of Man Transport used to run an Island at War Weekend in the summer which involved renactors. I attended a couple - the only WWII reneactment event i have ever attended.

On arrival at Port Erin passengers could be ushered into a group to be taken on a walk around the sites of the former internment hotels there. Almost all the hotels in Port Erin have been replaced by residental propreties in recent years.

There has been a few books writted on the subject in recent years - well worth checking out as though well known on the island the internment story is probably not as widely known in the UK.

 

[DarloRich]

(Yes, no football: how did we survive.

But there WAS wartime football with regional leagues and cup competitions played in front of spectators. Attendances were limited to say 10/15k

39/40 season started as normal but was suspended to be replaced by friendlies
40/41 was split into North and South leagues
42-45 was three leagues: North, South and West and cup competitions
Norwich and Bournemouth withdrew from the league structures due to travel problems
There were obviously many guest players turning out for clubs close to where they were stationed.
46/47 season saw the pre war 4 league structure re start.

England played unofficial wartime internationals between 1939 and 1945 against Wales and Scotland.

How were POWs moved around the country in WW2 ? Did they travel by train ? I ask because the POW camp in Tadcaster was next to the station

yes - example here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205200733

German PoWs are escorted from their train carriage and along the platform at a London station (possibly Euston) by British Military Police. These prisoners are U-boat crew and are being transferred from one camp to another.

 

[The exile]

Finally - the real difficulties of operating in blackout - a serious collision between a double headed at Bletchley and the station pilot doing some shunting the early days of war was as a result of the former running through about 4 red signals...........

Never thought about this - were signal lamps “trimmed” to burn more dimly? Lamps would presumably have stood out a bit more in the blackout - with the added advantage that the reservoirs would have lasted longer, potentially saving a few vital hours.

 

[Gloster]

Never thought about this - were signal lamps “trimmed” to burn more dimly? Lamps would presumably have stood out a bit more in the blackout - with the added advantage that the reservoirs would have lasted longer, potentially saving a few vital hours.

I think a lot of signals, particularly colour lights, were hooded to prevent them being seen from above. As a former Lampman, I can say that lamps were always trimmed down to the lowest possible level in order to last a week, so I doubt that they would be further adjusted: they were designed to last for eight days as it was.

 

[Rescars]

I recall visiting Waterloo signal box in the 1960s and being shown the master switch which dimmed all the signal lights during the blackout. I can't give a precise date for this, but I did see a MN bring in a Bournemouth express on the same trip.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think a lot of signals, particularly colour lights, were hooded to prevent them being seen from above. As a former Lampman, I can say that lamps were always trimmed down to the lowest possible level in order to last a week, so I doubt that they would be further adjusted: they were designed to last for eight days as it was.

Which also applied for example to the not inconsiderable mileage of LPTB lines on the surface sections , where "hooding" of signals also applied.

It must have been quite challenging for signal box staff - with presumably a single , weak , desk light for the train register desk and little else , though tail lamp spotting in reasonable conditions would have been easier.

Spare a thought for track gangs etc carrying out urgent night repairs in the blackout - they presumably had a spotter to warn them of approaching planes , and many worked "under fire" under circumstances. Classified documents at Kew indicate how this was done., certainly on the GWR where I was able to dig out some of these files.

Shunting and station working must have been challenging , though on the Southern (for example) coupling and uncoupling at Purley for Tattenham / Caterham trains was routinely done in 90 seconds , including a brake test ! - marshalling yard working took twice as long apparently.

Finally - an anecdote from Gerald Fiennes - called out to a derailment at Leicester ,and before leaving home he filled his handlamp in the dark garage , - climbed onto a light engine , lit his lamp and set it down behind him. A second later , said lamp exploded - and the unflappable driver - said "that's B++y good paraffin" - he had accidentally put petrol in the handlamp ...............

 

[Gloster]

I have just become aware that a book called Railway Travel in World War Two by Peter Steer was published last year by Pen & Sword at £25. The review is not particularly informative, but it does seem to be a general history and reasonably thorough as it is an expanded MA dissertation.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I have just become aware that a book called Railway Travel in World War Two by Peter Steer was published last year by Pen & Sword at £25. The review is not particularly informative, but it does seem to be a general history and reasonably thorough as it is an expanded MA dissertation.

Indeed - I bought a copy mid-May (info and link on post #40). It's a written record and not a pictorial one; other such books cover the photographic side. That being said, I'm finding it a highly interesting read.