How will GTR cope with Brighton Pride crowds?

[6Gman]

So you think there were enough trains to get everybody home?
I believe you are completely wrong as there were not enough trains - as I stated.

Any system is as strong as its weakest link. Perhaps the weakest link here was not the number of trains, but Brighton station?

In other words, how quickly you can move people from outside the station, through the station and onto the trains ...

You could have a train every 3 minutes but if it takes you 15 minutes to get 2,000 people through the gates and loaded then there will be a lot of empty seats.

 

[Fincra5]

Its fine saying there weren't enough trains.. but where would these magically come from? GTR is stretched as it is with Drivers. It would rely massively on RDW. Something people quite often avoid on Pride Weekend (Mostly due to drunk and disorderly behaviour)

 

[Ianno87]

Any system is as strong as its weakest link. Perhaps the weakest link here was not the number of trains, but Brighton station?

In other words, how quickly you can move people from outside the station, through the station and onto the trains ...

You could have a train every 3 minutes but if it takes you 15 minutes to get 2,000 people through the gates and loaded then there will be a lot of empty seats.

Like how the 36tph service on the full length of the Victoria Line had to await the installation of a third escalator at Walthamstow. The railway is a *system*, not just trains on track.

 

[farleigh]

Any system is as strong as its weakest link. Perhaps the weakest link here was not the number of trains, but Brighton station?

In other words, how quickly you can move people from outside the station, through the station and onto the trains ...

You could have a train every 3 minutes but if it takes you 15 minutes to get 2,000 people through the gates and loaded then there will be a lot of empty seats.

A fine post

 

[infobleep]

I don't think that there has ever been a suggestion that 'extra' rolling stock was needed. GTR has plenty of EMUs available to it on a Saturday evening.
Were you thinking along the lines of West Coast Railway bringing down a couple of sets from Carnforth or something? Not necessary.

Is that avilable EMUs in service already or those spare? I wasn't suggesting they might be bringing some in from elsewhere, just wondering if it was achieved with stock already running in service or did they use stock that wasn't in use at that time? I don't mean stock from other TOCs, just their own.

 

[Robertj21a]

Is that avilable EMUs in service already or those spare? I wasn't suggesting they might be bringing some in from elsewhere, just wondering if it was achieved with stock already running in service or did they use stock that wasn't in use at that time? I don't mean stock from other TOCs, just their own.

I'm not clear why it matters !

 

[infobleep]

I'm not clear why it matters !

It matters purely because I'm interested.

 

[Clip]

My question was whethee they were using existing rolling stock that was already in service to provide these additional services or whether it was additional rolling stock?

It pretty much read that you were stating that 'Ive been told they cant run extra/strengthening services at times so why can they do it now' if im honest

 

[infobleep]

It pretty much read that you were stating that 'Ive been told they cant run extra/strengthening services at times so why can they do it now' if im honest

It was that question but in the context of how they did it on Saturday night just gone and not how they might have done it on other days of the week or in the past. Just on a Saturday night.

They ran extra services on Saturday so what rolling stock did they use? Stuff already running in service that evening or something else?

 

[philthetube]

Any system is as strong as its weakest link. Perhaps the weakest link here was not the number of trains, but Brighton station?

In other words, how quickly you can move people from outside the station, through the station and onto the trains ...

You could have a train every 3 minutes but if it takes you 15 minutes to get 2,000 people through the gates and loaded then there will be a lot of empty seats.

Back to my point, should they be considering terminating southbound services at Preston Park?

 

[Esker-pades]

Back to my point, should they be considering terminating southbound services at Preston Park?

Simply, no.
Paths on the Brighton Main Line are very dear. If you terminate trains at Preston Park, then you effectively block the line for 3-5 minutes whilst everyone gets off. That quickly leads to a stack of trains going to Brighton, and also Littlehampton.
Preston Park has limited entrance/exit facilities. All trains would have to terminate in one platform, and there would easily be a situation arising that trains would be held from entering the platform whilst the previous trainload clears from it. Otherwise, there is a crush and it becomes deadly.

 

[6Gman]

Simply, no.
Paths on the Brighton Main Line are very dear. If you terminate trains at Preston Park, then you effectively block the line for 3-5 minutes whilst everyone gets off. That quickly leads to a stack of trains going to Brighton, and also Littlehampton.
Preston Park has limited entrance/exit facilities. All trains would have to terminate in one platform, and there would easily be a situation arising that trains would be held from entering the platform whilst the previous trainload clears from it. Otherwise, there is a crush and it becomes deadly.

This.

And also, how are the people decanted at Preston Park supposed to reach their final destinations?

 

[farleigh]

This.

And also, how are the people decanted at Preston Park supposed to reach their final destinations?

They could run a shuttle to Brighton?

 

[Esker-pades]

They could run a shuttle to Brighton?

That would be really silly, given that the original proposal was to terminate trains at Preston Park, rather than Brighton.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They could run a shuttle to Brighton?

You may as well just run the original train to Brighton! All you are going to do is have overcrowding at Preston Park as well as Brighton. The police couldn't manage one, so they aren't going to be able to manage both!

 

[Robsignals]

It was that question but in the context of how they did it on Saturday night just gone and not how they might have done it on other days of the week or in the past. Just on a Saturday night.

They ran extra services on Saturday so what rolling stock did they use? Stuff already running in service that evening or something else?

There's always spare stock on Saturdays and from around 2200 trains would normally be coming out of service. GTR have said they had 15 trains on standby or more accurately 15 crews. They also pointed out that they've dealt with Pride for the last 20 years without difficulty but numbers this year were far higher than the organisers had predicted and the crowd problems were due to lack of marshalling approaching the station meaning I think that the flow out of the park gates should've been regulated.

Preston Park is not that cramped and queuing could be set-up outside easing pressure on Brighton, east Coastway traffic which is likely not so great could be sent to London Road. Next year if similar numbers are expected publicity should state that it's unlikely that everyone can get back to London that night and if you don't get to the station by, say, 10pm then don't bother basically. Perhaps the park could be left open all night for people to lie on the grass in safety and with toilets, Day Returns could be made valid for Sunday also.

 

[Kite159]

Couldn't they set up the queues for the West Coastway to be at Hove? (Maybe offering a shuttle bus for those unable to walk the ~ mile)

 

[infobleep]

There's always spare stock on Saturdays and from around 2200 trains would normally be coming out of service. GTR have said they had 15 trains on standby or more accurately 15 crews. They also pointed out that they've dealt with Pride for the last 20 years without difficulty but numbers this year were far higher than the organisers had predicted and the crowd problems were due to lack of marshalling approaching the station meaning I think that the flow out of the park gates should've been regulated.

Preston Park is not that cramped and queuing could be set-up outside easing pressure on Brighton, east Coastway traffic which is likely not so great could be sent to London Road. Next year if similar numbers are expected publicity should state that it's unlikely that everyone can get back to London that night and if you don't get to the station by, say, 10pm then don't bother basically. Perhaps the park could be left open all night for people to lie on the grass in safety and with toilets, Day Returns could be made valid for Sunday also.

Leaving the park open all night isn't a bad idea but could they get people to man it all night? Don't these festivals often use volunteers?

 

[Chrisgr31]

There's always spare stock on Saturdays and from around 2200 trains would normally be coming out of service. GTR have said they had 15 trains on standby or more accurately 15 crews. They also pointed out that they've dealt with Pride for the last 20 years without difficulty but numbers this year were far higher than the organisers had predicted and the crowd problems were due to lack of marshalling approaching the station meaning I think that the flow out of the park gates should've been regulated.

Preston Park is not that cramped and queuing could be set-up outside easing pressure on Brighton, east Coastway traffic which is likely not so great could be sent to London Road. Next year if similar numbers are expected publicity should state that it's unlikely that everyone can get back to London that night and if you don't get to the station by, say, 10pm then don't bother basically. Perhaps the park could be left open all night for people to lie on the grass in safety and with toilets, Day Returns could be made valid for Sunday also.

The real issue was that the numbers far exceeded those expected, presumably in part to day trippers enjoying the weather and not just Pride.

To an extent what happened is what you are suggesting. Southern warned that the train would be very busy in the evening and encouraged people to travel early, they laid on an additional 15 trains that werent timetabled, and the Conference Centre was opened to provide shelter for those stranded. In reality of course people fund alternative routes home, or went to the beach, or used the train as that became possible with the easing of the crowds.

I dont believe you can keep the park open, because I suspect that as soon as the concert had finished the strip down started. All the food stalls etc would be packing up and leaving, the lighting, PA system stage etc would all be dismantled and removed. If people are offered the opportunity to stay in the park all night they will do so, and thats probably not something you want to encourage.

As Infobleep says many of the people staffing events like this are volunteers. Its slightly bizarre that events that cost a fortune to take part in then use volunteers!

Finally in a change of heart the Pride organisers have congratulated GTR! https://www.brighton-pride.org/brighton-hove-pride-2018-its-a-wrap/

 

[Robsignals]

Casual day trippers that knew it was Pride likely kept well away, others seeing the crowds heading for Brighton probably changed destination last minute, the numbers were due to the concert.

The park is highly organised with secure fencing I doubt they rely on volunteers, in future Council permission can include the requirement to stay open and the organisers have to plan accordingly. This year there was an event on Sunday so everything stayed in place Saturday night but probably they're required to get everyone out to limit disturbance for residents, providing all music/PA is stopped there shouldn't be a problem.

I doubt there's that much traffic for West Coastway either, could examine whether a separate queue at Preston Park would work.

 

[sbt]

The park is highly organised with secure fencing I doubt they rely on volunteers

As someone who has worked as a volunteer on Site Services for moderately large Boating Festivals (with a large land site) I can say that what you describe is perfectly possible with volunteers. Some things have to be done differently from the way paid staff would do them but it was always well organised. All the security fencing was erected and torn down by the volunteers. Practically the only things that weren't done by volunteers were those things that need professional certifications (like Security Guards) - and some jobs that did were done by professionals acting in a voluntary capacity.

We even did the site sewage system (to large for Portaloos) - I remember one massively long pipe with at least one booster station we put in to reach a major sewer on one site. That was a job supervised by a professional sewer engineer working as a volunteer. Mechanical handling with Telehandlers and the like was provided by suitably trained (not professionally certified but certified via our internal training system) volunteers. Radio comms was run by volunteers. Sound in the performance tents was run by three or four professionals in a volunteer capacity who manned the mixing desks during performances - for example we had a broadcast sound tech from BBC Outside Broadcasts and a Sound Engineer from a major commercial radio station.

Depending on the event traders on site generally want to be away as fast as possible. Tear Down is mad with major volunteer effort required to keep things safe and nobody hit by forklifts and vans and to ensure that traders don't leave with bits of the hired in infrastructure. We have had to physically block traders with vehicles or rather pointedly stand in front of vans and large lorries at times. And when that is done there is the inevitable 'Litter Pick' and recovery of the trackways, electrics, water etc. we put in at the start.

In a couple of weeks I'm off to a large, volunteer run, Maker festival. A volunteer friend will be part of the First Aid cover, another will be part of the team running the very large capacity Internet coverage provided 'to the tent' (it's a tech fest after all). 2016 went well, with plaudits from the large tech firms exhibiting and I certainly enjoyed myself. Then a couple of weeks later I'm off to a major Convention based around a programming language that is also volunteer run.

Never underestimate the abilities of a well run volunteer effort, just look at the RNLI for example.

It's perfectly possible for the majority of Pride to have been run by volunteers. Remember that volunteers doing things well are assumed to be professionals.

 

[infobleep]

As someone who has worked as a volunteer on Site Services for moderately large Boating Festivals (with a large land site) I can say that what you describe is perfectly possible with volunteers. Some things have to be done differently from the way paid staff would do them but it was always well organised. All the security fencing was erected and torn down by the volunteers. Practically the only things that weren't done by volunteers were those things that need professional certifications (like Security Guards) - and some jobs that did were done done by professionals acting in a voluntary capacity.

We even did the site sewage system (to large for Portaloos) - I remember one massively long pipe with at least one booster station we put in to reach a major sewer on one site. That was a job supervised by a professional sewer engineer working as a volunteer. Mechanical handling with Telehandlers and the like was provided by suitably trained (not professionally certified but certified via our internal training system) volunteers. Radio comms was run by volunteers. Sound in the performance tents was run by three or four professionals in a volunteer capacity who manned the mixing desks during performances - for example we had a broadcast sound tech from BBC Outside Broadcasts and a Sound Engineer from a major commercial radio station.

Depending on the event traders on site generally want to be away as fast as possible. Tear Down is mad with major volunteer effort required to keep things safe and nobody hit by forklifts and vans and to ensure that traders don't leave with bits of the hired in infrastructure. We have had to physically block traders with vehicles or rather pointedly stand in front of vans and large lorries at times. And when that is done there is the inevitable 'Litter Pick' and recovery of the trackways, electrics, water etc. we put in at the start.

In a couple of weeks I'm off to a large, volunteer run, Maker festival. A volunteer friend will be part of the First Aid cover, another will be part of the team running the very large capacity Internet coverage provided 'to the tent' (it's a tech fest after all). 2016 went well, with plaudits from the large tech firms exhibiting and I certainly enjoyed myself. Then a couple of weeks later I'm off to a major Convention based around a programming language that is also volunteer run.

Never underestimate the abilities of a well run volunteer effort, just look at the RNLI for example.

It's perfectly possible for the majority of Pride to have been run by volunteers. Remember that volunteers doing things well are assumed to be professionals.

Thanks for the informative post. What do volunteers get out of doing this?

 

[SwindonBert]

Thanks for the informative post. What do volunteers get out of doing this?

As someone who does volunteer at events, what I get is the chance to do something different, new experiences, chance to meet new people and the satisfaction of giving something back, especially when you see people enjoy themselves.
One also gets to see events for free, often with some of the best views in the house

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

, "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" John F Kennedy. All over the UK today many will be volunteering, some helping on heritage railways. Nothing is more satisfying than knowing you are bringing happiness and sometimes safety (RNLI/St John's Ambulance etc) to others for no tangible reward.

 

[sbt]

Thanks for the informative post. What do volunteers get out of doing this?

1. The event happens.

2. Depending where you are in the organisation, you are able to influence the WAY it happens.

3. There is great satisfaction in doing a job, usually significantly outside your normal experience, well.

4. It's a great social activity, often central to the sub-group of society that it serves. You get to meet loads of people that you wouldn't otherwise and closely knit teams form that never see each other except at that one event each year.

5. For those who spend their working life being 'in charge' and carrying significant responsibilities it is great to have a space where you are 'just following orders' with even less decision making required than when you are, for example, on a conventional holiday. You will find GPs stringing power cables, Civil Engineers handing out leaflets, Train Drivers vacuuming display areas. Conversely you get people who are not normally 'In Charge' running what are quite large organisations or parts of organisations.

6. People are grateful.

 

[tsr]

There's always spare stock on Saturdays and from around 2200 trains would normally be coming out of service. GTR have said they had 15 trains on standby or more accurately 15 crews. They also pointed out that they've dealt with Pride for the last 20 years without difficulty but numbers this year were far higher than the organisers had predicted and the crowd problems were due to lack of marshalling approaching the station meaning I think that the flow out of the park gates should've been regulated.

Preston Park is not that cramped and queuing could be set-up outside easing pressure on Brighton, east Coastway traffic which is likely not so great could be sent to London Road. Next year if similar numbers are expected publicity should state that it's unlikely that everyone can get back to London that night and if you don't get to the station by, say, 10pm then don't bother basically. Perhaps the park could be left open all night for people to lie on the grass in safety and with toilets, Day Returns could be made valid for Sunday also.

Firstly, you are incorrect on the point about spare stock on Saturdays (and throughout weekends, for that matter). Stock needs downtime for maintenance, and a lot of stock which is “outberthed” away from main depots for weekday morning peaks’ traffic is returned at weekends for maintenance. I’ve been working with units in the past week which haven’t seen more than basic train cleaning and prep for several days, and they will physically only have been able to get to the maintenance depot yesterday or today for urgent repairs. If you’re going to postpone these efforts, or alter them, it leads to a lot more work, and in some cases it all turns out to be impossible. The press will go and take a photo of a yard full of trains from a vantage point; what they don’t see is that the person wandering between each train with an orange rucksack is actually doing door repairs, PA transformer replacements, aircon resets, you name it.

Crews do not equate to trains either - you need different crew for each service and it all needs to be matched up. It’s no good GTR having a spare 313 if only a driver and OBS are willing to do overtime - the company may be running minus a 377 for traffic, which the OBS could work, but instead it’s a 313 and no conductor is available. The cover conductor has been sent to Southampton but now you have a 313 they need to take to Seaford because there’s a big crowd wanting Lewes and Newhaven. Good luck getting that arranged in a reasonable time. (This is why most of the extra trains could only really run up the Brighton Mainline on Pride night - most available crew would have been able to work the route and traction, plus you can also work stock close to a depot or stabling point without running out of crew hours).

Preston Park could perhaps be used - but it raises more questions than answers. Platform 3 is OK but Platforms 1 and 2 are a relatively small island. It’s hard, if not impossible, to plan reasonable secondary escape routes from the station in the event of an emergency. Staffing levels aren’t brilliant and any extra staff would have to be put up in a room which is barely larger than a stationery cupboard. You also have very narrow, inaccessible entrance stairs, which are not suitable if a wheelchair user or even somewhere with a pushchair turns up. The entrance passageway is also long and narrow.

East and West Coastway trains can be just as busy as the mainline ones during such events. The West Coastway in particular becomes “full and standing” at the drop of a hat, and East is bad if you can only resource 4 or 8 coach trains.

Day Returns - this is already done. A large number of operators will use preset plans where “tickets for x are now valid the next day” during major disruption; GTR included.

 

[infobleep]

, "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" John F Kennedy. All over the UK today many will be volunteering, some helping on heritage railways. Nothing is more satisfying than knowing you are bringing happiness and sometimes safety (RNLI/St John's Ambulance etc) to others for no tangible reward.

I understand about heritage railways. I was thinking more along the lines of some of these events might cost a lot for people to go to and some of these artists make a lot of money from their live music, so would they be able to make as much without volunteers.

However this is taking it away from eahg this thread is about.

Back on topic, it's a good job they didn't have the massive rains of the other day when pride was happening. Maybe if they did they wouldn't have had such numbers. I only say this due to the leaky roof at Brighton station, following the excessive rain. Imagine trying to funnel everyone around that.

 

[infobleep]

Firstly, you are incorrect on the point about spare stock on Saturdays (and throughout weekends, for that matter). Stock needs downtime for maintenance, and a lot of stock which is “outberthed” away from main depots for weekday morning peaks’ traffic is returned at weekends for maintenance. I’ve been working with units in the past week which haven’t seen more than basic train cleaning and prep for several days, and they will physically only have been able to get to the maintenance depot yesterday or today for urgent repairs. If you’re going to postpone these efforts, or alter them, it leads to a lot more work, and in some cases it all turns out to be impossible. The press will go and take a photo of a yard full of trains from a vantage point; what they don’t see is that the person wandering between each train with an orange rucksack is actually doing door repairs, PA transformer replacements, aircon resets, you name it.

Crews do not equate to trains either - you need different crew for each service and it all needs to be matched up. It’s no good GTR having a spare 313 if only a driver and OBS are willing to do overtime - the company may be running minus a 377 for traffic, which the OBS could work, but instead it’s a 313 and no conductor is available. The cover conductor has been sent to Southampton but now you have a 313 they need to take to Seaford because there’s a big crowd wanting Lewes and Newhaven. Good luck getting that arranged in a reasonable time. (This is why most of the extra trains could only really run up the Brighton Mainline on Pride night - most available crew would have been able to work the route and traction, plus you can also work stock close to a depot or stabling point without running out of crew hours).

Preston Park could perhaps be used - but it raises more questions than answers. Platform 3 is OK but Platforms 1 and 2 are a relatively small island. It’s hard, if not impossible, to plan reasonable secondary escape routes from the station in the event of an emergency. Staffing levels aren’t brilliant and any extra staff would have to be put up in a room which is barely larger than a stationery cupboard. You also have very narrow, inaccessible entrance stairs, which are not suitable if a wheelchair user or even somewhere with a pushchair turns up. The entrance passageway is also long and narrow.

East and West Coastway trains can be just as busy as the mainline ones during such events. The West Coastway in particular becomes “full and standing” at the drop of a hat, and East is bad if you can only resource 4 or 8 coach trains.

Day Returns - this is already done. A large number of operators will use preset plans where “tickets for x are now valid the next day” during major disruption; GTR included.

Thanks for the informative post. I enjoy understanding how these things work.

When your told they don't have spare stock lying around to run extra occisonal trains, which I don't doubt, and then you see additional trains running, I like reading about how they managed it.

Under these circumstances, of large numbers, if passengers missed connections, would the TOCs have a duty to get them home?

I'm not accusing staff of not helping, I'm just wondering how they deal with large numbers, some of whome must surely have missed connections or even there last train.

Getting hold of taxis in Brighton itself would be impossible but maybe not so elsewhere.

 

[jamesthegill]

Under these circumstances, of large numbers, if passengers missed connections, would the TOCs have a duty to get them home?

I'm curious about this too. Presumably there wasn't a cat-in-hell's chance of getting a taxi anywhere in Brighton that night, and unlikely to get replacement buses to Brighton station as the main road into town was closed off (the A23 alongside Preston Park) but surely under the NRCoC passengers were entitled to this? If @tsr or somebody else knowledgeable could shed light on this, please do!

(FWIW I had the luxury of being able to walk home from Preston Park where the only obstacle was a whacking great hill!)

 

[infobleep]

I'm curious about this too. Presumably there wasn't a cat-in-hell's chance of getting a taxi anywhere in Brighton that night, and unlikely to get replacement buses to Brighton station as the main road into town was closed off (the A23 alongside Preston Park) but surely under the NRCoC passengers were entitled to this? If @tsr or somebody else knowledgeable could shed light on this, please do!

(FWIW I had the luxury of being able to walk home from Preston Park where the only obstacle was a whacking great hill!)

Being pedantic for a moment, it's actually the National Conditions of Travel now. They are not quite the same, even if it had been intended for them to be the same.