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HS1 to Rye and Hastings, will ever happen?

NorthKent1989

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A few years back there were ambitions for HS1 to be extended to Rye and Hastings (Eastbourne in the peaks), it would have connected Rye to London in less than an hour.

Things have gone silent on this front, this may have been shelved due to Covid.

But will this ever happen?
 
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steamybrian

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A few years back there were ambitions for HS1 to be extended to Rye and Hastings (Eastbourne in the peaks), it would have connected Rye to London in less than an hour.

Things have gone silent on this front, this may have been shelved due to Covid.

But will this ever happen?
With the present track layout at Ashford it is not possible to run from HS1 direct onto the Hastings line. Accordingly it will require costly additional crossovers/points and associated signalling to be provide the connections.
It is single line Appledore-Rye (passing loop)- Ore thus timing of such trains with the present single track layout would be difficult if not impossible.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Marsh Line already has pretty good connections into out of HS1 so your not going to gain much from spending 50M+. Also HS1 is short of stock now so this would need additional units surely.
 

PGAT

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So the only thing that might realistically come from this is the Rye shuttle, which probably isn’t justified with current passenger numbers anyway
 

Bald Rick

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The previous thread said no, it is not likely to happen - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...er-marshlink-electrified.217681/#post-5147180

Upheaval too great, simply to provide Rye and Hastings with a faster link with London.

I was about to reply on this thread, checked the old thread, and just as well I did ;)

It was a classic proposal, made by a campaign group that didn‘t understand practicalities (or, arguably, economics), got traction with an MP (a minister) who saw the headline benefit wihtiut understanding it, and then pursued under duress by the industry.

The main issues were:

1) the need to rebuild Ashford very expensively, or less expensively but with non standard kit that would have several single point failures (that could lock up the whole of Ashford, and in some circumstances HS1) and horrendously difficult to maintain.

2) the need to electrify Asford to Hastings.

3) an appalling busines case, even on optimisitc assumptions.
 
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Marshlink was built all double track but got singled by BR for cost saving reasons right?

The low hanging fruit would be to make it double track again so the turbostars can run faster
 

AlastairFraser

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Marshlink was built all double track but got singled by BR for cost saving reasons right?

The low hanging fruit would be to make it double track again so the turbostars can run faster
And extend third rail or run bimode battery units.
As you say, the potential is there to redouble and you could also increase frequency so linking into HS1, or, in future, potentially Eurostar is possible
 

MarkyT

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Marshlink was built all double track but got singled by BR for cost saving reasons right?

The low hanging fruit would be to make it double track again so the turbostars can run faster
You don't need double track for trains to run faster. Re-doubling of a former twin track railway can sometimes result in speed reductions as track engineers had taken advantage of the wide formation to cut across curves when singling originally. There's often more room for cant and greater space for swaying of vehicles at speed (dynamic envelope).
 

telstarbox

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So on the current routes from Hastings to London it's 1h35 to Charing Cross (less to London Bridge), or 1h29 changing at Ashford with a 6 minute connection onto HS1. Would speeding up the HS1 option cannibalise demand on the classic/direct route?
 

MarkyT

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So on the current routes from Hastings to London it's 1h35 to Charing Cross (less to London Bridge), or 1h29 changing at Ashford with a 6 minute connection onto HS1. Would speeding up the HS1 option cannibalise demand on the classic/direct route?
Firstly, I don't see how the route via Ashford could be speeded up appreciably, even with a direct train. Secondly, with such a small journey time difference, abstraction from the slower route is likely to be minimal because you've got to consider the faff and possible unreliability of such a tight connection as well as the inevitable higher fare. Of course, some journeys may be more convenient via HS1, say if you were interchanging for a trip to The North from Kings Cross or St Pancras, or your business was in a part of N London nearby. A destination anywhere around Stratford and its Anglia connections favours HS1. I'm hoping the HS1 to Hastings direct idea will be quietly forgotten and options for better local service taken forward instead, which with frequency improvements could improve all travel options changing onto HS1 and other services at Ashford for destinations in London and all over East Kent.
 
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yorksrob

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You don't need double track for trains to run faster. Re-doubling of a former twin track railway can sometimes result in speed reductions as track engineers had taken advantage of the wide formation to cut across curves when singling originally. There's often more room for cant and greater space for swaying of vehicles at speed (dynamic envelope).

Not much point running faster if you need to wait for the train coming the opposite way at Rye

Extending it as a dynamic loop would be a compromise.
 

47421

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saw a tweet the other day from a marshlink regular saying the old peak extras Rye - Ashford are never coming back as no longer justified post covid, and proposals for battery units are not being progressed as all too difficult/expensive. If those things are not worth bothering with, prospects for other grand projects seem very poor indeed
 

brad465

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I was about to reply on this thread, checked the old thread, and just as well I did ;)

It was a classic proposal, made by a campaign group that didn‘t understand practicalities (or, arguably, economics), got traction with an MP (a minister) who saw the headline benefit without understanding it, and then pursued under duress by the industry.
An MP who at the time was occupying the local constituency (Hastings and Rye) on a very tight margin, something like 300-400 votes, so will have been highly motivated to make local improvements. If the constituency flips to Labour after the next election, I would not be surprised if the new MP tries to revive the concept for the same reason, or at least some other lesser proposal like upgrading the ML line on its own.

You don't need double track for trains to run faster. Re-doubling of a former twin track railway can sometimes result in speed reductions as track engineers had taken advantage of the wide formation to cut across curves when singling originally. There's often more room for cant and greater space for swaying of vehicles at speed (dynamic envelope).
For the Marshlink line I can see Ashford-Rye being easy to upgrade line speed, as it is already very straight, including the single bit from Appledore-Rye, all else being sufficient to improve speed (I believe it once used to 85mph so upgrading back to that level at least would presumably be possible). To a lesser extent Rye to near Doleham is also fairly straight, but beyond there the curvature is greater and is restricted to 40mph.
 
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yorksrob

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saw a tweet the other day from a marshlink regular saying the old peak extras Rye - Ashford are never coming back as no longer justified post covid, and proposals for battery units are not being progressed as all too difficult/expensive. If those things are not worth bothering with, prospects for other grand projects seem very poor indeed

The line seems to be more popular than ever in its modern guise as an extension of the East Coastway.
 

PGAT

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Even if that’s true the Rye shuttle doesn’t serve that purpose
 

MarkyT

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The line seems to be more popular than ever in its modern guise as an extension of the East Coastway.
It has great potential with the connections available from Ashford, providing direct links from there to pretty much every major town in east Kent. Would be nice if it went back to Brighton - for a battery train that would give a longer proportion of the circuit time on 3rd rail for en-route charging. For half hourly service I think an extension of double track out from Ore at least through the tunnel would be required. The Ore -Rye single section is ~10 miles today with three intermediate stations compared to the ~7 miles between Rye and Appledore with no stations. EMUs with batteries might be a little quicker than DMUs. Doleham really needs to finally close. Serving only one short terrace of houses, and even with most calls now removed, there are typically more trains per day than passengers!
 

yorksrob

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It has great potential with the connections available from Ashford, providing direct links from there to pretty much every major town in east Kent. Would be nice if it went back to Brighton - for a battery train that would give a longer proportion of the circuit time on 3rd rail for en-route charging. For half hourly service I think an extension of double track out from Ore at least through the tunnel would be required. The Ore -Rye single section is ~10 miles today with three intermediate stations compared to the ~7 miles between Rye and Appledore with no stations. EMUs with batteries might be a little quicker than DMUs. Doleham really needs to finally close. Serving only one short terrace of houses, and even with most calls now removed, there are typically more trains per day than passengers!

The through service to Brighton was certainly very popular.
 

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