HS2 and Liverpool

[Bletchleyite]

That's simply not true.

In what way?

 

[driver_m]

In what way?

Err..it is isn't it?? Agree with you there. Take our stuff largely off the south end. Move the faster LNWR stuff over to the fast with the remaining LD services . More room on the slows then for freight and commuter flows from the likes of St Albans Abbey, MK and Northampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Err..it is isn't it?? Agree with you there. Take our stuff largely off the south end. Move the faster LNWR stuff over to the fast with the remaining LD services . More room on the slows then for freight and commuter flows from the likes of St Albans Abbey, MK and Northampton.

Exactly.

I used to be against it until I read up more (on here and elsewhere) exactly what it's really for (and that taking a few minutes off Euston-Birmingham is just a happy side effect that would be no way worth the money on its own).

 

[PR1Berske]

In what way?

There has never been a single, verified reason/justification for HS2. It was, briefly, to reduce the time between Birmingham and London. Then it was about passenger numbers. Then it was about congestion on the WCML. Then it was about connecting the north to London. And then something else. And then something else. And then something else. Your statement was untrue because the reason for HS2 has never been one single thing, and it's never been officially determined..

 

[Ianno87]

There has never been a single, verified reason/justification for HS2. It was, briefly, to reduce the time between Birmingham and London. Then it was about passenger numbers. Then it was about congestion on the WCML. Then it was about connecting the north to London. And then something else. And then something else. And then something else. Your statement was untrue because the reason for HS2 has never been one single thing, and it's never been officially determined..

Why does it have to be about a *single* thing? It's about *all* of those things!

 

[marcouk2]

There has never been a single, verified reason/justification for HS2. It was, briefly, to reduce the time between Birmingham and London. Then it was about passenger numbers. Then it was about congestion on the WCML. Then it was about connecting the north to London. And then something else. And then something else. And then something else. Your statement was untrue because the reason for HS2 has never been one single thing, and it's never been officially determined..

So having more than one reason for Hs2 is bad now?

 

[aylesbury]

Don't hold your breaths there is still a good chance for this thing to be cancelled. The management are hopeless and are not managing finances properly plus Brexit is going to take precedence very soon.

 

[PR1Berske]

So having more than one reason for Hs2 is bad now?

Having no single reason on which to build suggests a project in constant flux, desperately searching for a justification, and finding nothing.

 

[marcouk2]

Having no single reason on which to build suggests a project in constant flux, desperately searching for a justification, and finding nothing.

So you'd rather a separate project for each reason then? I'm sure we can guess which would cause less disruption and cost the least.

 

[Ianno87]

Having no single reason on which to build suggests a project in constant flux, desperately searching for a justification, and finding nothing.

It suggests a project with a well-developed, multi-faceted business case. All the benefits add together to form the case. It's not the case (as you're suggesting) that a 'new' reason for HS2 suddenly overrides or replaces a previous one.

By your logic we should also abandon what's left of Manchester-Preston electrification, on the grounds it *both* reduces operating costs *and* gives quicker performing trains?

 

[Bald Rick]

'Please disperse ! There is nothing to see here !'

That is one of the most inaccurate summaries I have ever seen of anything. Perhaps you thought that the topic could be closed down by pretending that only 'one or two' people were worried by it. Seems to me that a small coterie of Scouseophobes and HS2 fundamentalists are the main ones keeping it going.

Has it ever occurred to you that HS2 might do better in the opinion polls it its proponents tries to engage with the wider public, rather than pretending that only.a small number of unreasonable.malcontents opposed it ?

Inaccurate in what way? I thought it was a reasonable summary of the thread to that point. Happy to take comments on it of course, corrections, critical or otherwise, from anyone who has issue with it.

 

[mmh]

Be located where it is, tucked away in a corner where IC trains to it are only really of any use if you are going to it or its immediate commuter region, and of limited use to connect on elsewhere?

Sounds exactly the same as London to Manchester trains to me. What journey from Euston would have someone changing at Manchester to somewhere not in the Manchester commuter region?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds exactly the same as London to Manchester trains to me. What journey from Euston would have someone changing at Manchester to somewhere not in the Manchester commuter region?

It depends what you mean "commuter region" - the Manchester hinterland is much larger. Liverpool, having sea below it and to the west of it has only a quarter of the hinterland in terms of the angle swept, and there's the main WCML running close to the east which limits the hinterland in that direction too. Look at a map.

 

[B&I]

It depends what you mean "commuter region" - the Manchester hinterland is much larger. Liverpool, having sea below it and to the west of it has only a quarter of the hinterland in terms of the angle swept, and there's the main WCML running close to the east which limits the hinterland in that direction too. Look at a map.

Don't you mean 3/4 in the angle swept ? There is sea directly to the north west, but land in every other direction. You may have also noticed that Manchester is surrounded on 2 sides by a lot of moors, but maybe sheep are a major target area for rail transport these days. I will say nothing about their likelihood of being rail enthusiasts

 

[B&I]

Inaccurate in what way? I thought it was a reasonable summary of the thread to that point. Happy to take comments on it of course, corrections, critical or otherwise, from anyone who has issue with it.

Inaccurate in terms of numbers expressing different stances, viewpoints taken, reasoning applied etc etc. Apart from that, completely spot on in every way

 

[B&I]

It suggests a project with a well-developed, multi-faceted business case. All the benefits add together to form the case. It's not the case (as you're suggesting) that a 'new' reason for HS2 suddenly overrides or replaces a previous one.

By your logic we should also abandon what's left of Manchester-Preston electrification, on the grounds it *both* reduces operating costs *and* gives quicker performing trains?

It doesn't suggest a well-planned, coherent project, when the rhetoric keeps changing

 

[Tobbes]

It doesn't suggest a well-planned, coherent project, when the rhetoric keeps changing

Why do I think your view would be different if it included a dedicated optimised HSR into Liverpool?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Akin to the Jubilee/Fleet line serving docklands instead of the original aim of filling the tube's void in SE London , HS2 isn't about ordinary folk and their needs but providing something for certain business folk and their friends. Why not just HS the WCML and ECML ? ..from both short spurs would then connect pretty much every major population centre instead of the slippery snake designed to serve the few at the expense of the many.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Can you explain why port cities, in your view, do badly economically, and why inland post-industrial cities do better ? I haven't, for example noticed New York, Barcelona, Los Angeles, Hamburg or London (all port cities, all fairly peripherally located in their respective countries) doing too badly of late.

Where exactly did I say *all* port cities? I merely highlighted that there are other port cities in this country in a similar situation to Liverpool. OTOH I specifically didn't mention the likes of Bristol or Southampton because they are clearly not in a similar situation.

Anyway, if you're right, shouldn't any responsible government, in particular one which is allegedly trying to rebalance the economy by building HS2, make particular efforts to overcome the diaadvantages under which, according to you, cities like Liverpool labour ? Or do you support the 'sink or swim' approach endemic to modern England, whereby most of the country is left to rot, while a handful of favoured locations enjoy colossal state subsidy, sorry, investment ?

It's quite simple, it simply isn't possible to do everything we would like all at the same time, a point that has also been made by other posters. Like others I also think that the first stage of NPR/HS3 should be Liverpool-Manchester: perhaps we could call that section HS2.3.

So, people asking for infrastructure provision which will eliminate a risk of economic damage to their cities is rabid negativity / jealousy ? You really do have quite an odd take on the world.

Plenty of other posters have dealt with this point. The fact that you are either unable or unwilling to understand them is something that has become very clear.

I'd say this thread has uncovered more than a little of the ugly prejudice towards Liverpool which still lurks within the breasts of many English people over a certain age, now that they're not allowed to be nasty to visible minorities.

Since you have posted this in response to me I can only say that you know nothing about me and are unqualified to make any such judgement. In fact your posts say far more about your own prejudices.

 

[Ianno87]

Akin to the Jubilee/Fleet line serving docklands instead of the original aim of filling the tube's void in SE London , HS2 isn't about ordinary folk and their needs but providing something for certain business folk and their friends. Why not just HS the WCML and ECML ? ..from both short spurs would then connect pretty much every major population centre instead of the slippery snake designed to serve the few at the expense of the many.

One heck of a lot of 'ordinary' people use the Jubilee line day in, day out. Look at the numbers joining at the likes of Canning Town/North Greenwich every morning, having bussed or DLR-d from South East or East London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Akin to the Jubilee/Fleet line serving docklands instead of the original aim of filling the tube's void in SE London , HS2 isn't about ordinary folk and their needs but providing something for certain business folk and their friends. Why not just HS the WCML and ECML ? ..from both short spurs would then connect pretty much every major population centre instead of the slippery snake designed to serve the few at the expense of the many.

HS2 basically *is* HSing the WCML.

If you mean upgrade the existing line, did you see how well PUG2 went? Also note that that would add precisely no capacity.

 

[B&I]

Why do I think your view would be different if it included a dedicated optimised HSR into Liverpool?

Of course I would, because I want to see HS2 planned in such a way not just to.avoid any risk of economic damage to the city I live and work in, but also to.maximise capacity and benefit for as much of the country as possible, rather than providing a handful of places wirh morw capacity than they'll ever need

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course I would, because I wqnt to see HS2 planned in such a way not just to.avoid any risk of exonomic damage to the city I live and work in, but also to.maximise capacity and benefit for as much of the country as possible, rather than providing a handful of places wirh morw capacity than they'll ever need

Out of interest, have you used the south WCML commuter services and seen how much things are crammed in at present? Or seen the state of the M6 and M1 and how it'd be nice if we could have more freight on the WCML?

 

[B&I]

Where exactly did I say *all* port cities? I merely highlighted that there are other port cities in this country in a similar situation to Liverpool. OTOH I specifically didn't mention the likes of Bristol or Southampton because they are clearly not in a similar situation.

No, you were making the poimt about port cities which are peripheral to their countries. I was oointing out to you that, outside Britain there are a number of geographically peripheral but economically successfil cities. The fact that Britain.is a deeply dysfunctional country largely run for the benefit of one city and its immediate hinterland does not mean things have to be that way.

I notice you haven't responded to my question about whether you think that places which you believe to be at some inherent disadvantage deserve more state support to overcome this. I'll assumr that your view is they should be left to moulder.

It's quite simple, it simply isn't possible to do everything we would like all at the same time, a point that has also been made by other posters. Like others I also think that the first stage of NPR/HS3 should be Liverpool-Manchester: perhaps we could call that section HS2.3.

And as I have posted in response to other posters, it is an entriely arbitrary and political decision at what point it becomes 'impossible' to stop building infrastructure. That 'breaking point' could have been reached at a less extensive network of core bypass routes (eg atopping after.phase 1 or 2a), or at a more extensive network benefitting more than a handful of places.

I'm afraid your very generous concession that Liverpool should be joined at some unspecified future point to a future high soeed line with no definitive plan, no budget and no enabling legislation doesn't butter a great deal of.parsnips. Your vehement opposition to HS2 serving it.properly is rather more telling.

Plenty of other posters have dealt with this point. The fact that you are either unable or unwilling to understand them is something that has become very clear.

The fact that other oisters seem determined to.play down or misrepresent the evidence of HS2's own consultants doesn't make.me unwilling or unable.to understand anything.

Since you have posted this in response to me I can only say that you know nothing about me and are unqualified to make any such judgement. In fact your posts say far more about your own prejudices.

So, Sigmund, why don't you set out what you have discerned about.my origins and background, and my prejudices, from my posts ?

It was your choice of words to describe anyone arguing in favour of a high speed line to Liverpool as part of HS2 as 'rabidly negative and jealous', suggesting that you've got a bit of a problem with dem Scousahs gittin uppity. Still, what else would be expected of someone so determined to argue against Liverpool that they've made 7 of their 15 posts in the last 4 days on the subject, and who's still up at 2.51 am expanding on the subject ?

 

[B&I]

Out of interest, have you used the south WCML commuter services and seen how much things are crammed in at present? Or seen the state of the M6 and M1 and how it'd be nice if we could have more freight on the WCML?

You do realise that, whether my argument would be for a more or less extensive version of HS2 than the present one, it would still provide relief for those arteries ?

Turning your question around, have you travelled recently on a commuter or 'inter city' aervice anywhere on the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds axis, or seen the M62 at rush hour ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Turninv your question around, have you travelled recently on a commuter or 'inter city' aervice anywhere on the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds axis, or seen the M62 at rush hour ?

Yes, I have, and unlike down South where most trains are already at their maximum practicable[1] lengths all that is needed to solve that problem is a load of rolling stock and a mix between SDO and (relatively cheap) platform extensions. In essence, "come back when most of your trains are 240m long like ours are". The problem there is caused by running stupid little short DMUs around the place, and the TPE increase from 3 to 5-car is barely going to dent it; if they don't extend them all to at least 7 or 8-car in short order the problem will just persist.

[1] There is talk of 16-car in some circles, but that kind of extreme length has its own problems, not least the old semi-humorous adage of "why don't they put more coaches on at the front?"

 

[B&I]

Yes, I have, and unlike down South where most trains are already at their maximum practicable[1] lengths all that is needed to solve that problem is a load of rolling stock and a mix between SDO and (relatively cheap) platform extensions. In essence, "come back when most of your trains are 240m long like ours are". The problem there is caused by running stupid little short DMUs around the place, and the TPE increase from 3 to 5-car is barely going to dent it; if they don't extend them all to at least 7 or 8-car in short order the problem will just persist.

[1] There is talk of 16-car in some circles, but that kind of extreme length has its own problems, not least the old semi-humorous adage of "why don't they put more coaches on at the front?"

That's only part of the solution, as I commented to you before. The number of lone commuters on the M62 could easily fill up 8 cars or more

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's only part of the solution, as I commented to you before. The number of lone commuters on the M62 could easily fill up 8 cars or more

Not all of them would switch. The M1 is still busy despite the provision of lots of capacity on the railways down south, and that's with London being a whole lot more of a nightmare to drive to/in than any of the Northern cities.

 

[driver_m]

Not all of them would switch. The M1 is still busy despite the provision of lots of capacity on the railways down south, and that's with London being a whole lot more of a nightmare to drive to/in than any of the Northern cities.

You've not tried driving in Manchester have you.....every bit as bad as London. And don't get me started on Edge Lane in Liverpool .

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've not tried driving in Manchester have you.....every bit as bad as London. And don't get me started on Edge Lane in Liverpool .

I have driven in Manchester, yes, and it's nothing like as bad as London.

But even so, sorting out the disgrace that is Northern Rail, and getting enough capacity on TPE (let's say the present timetable but 8x23m on all trains) would make significant inroads.