HS2 - good for the provinces?

[Deerfold]

HS2 the biggest con perpetrated on the UK since - err well - possibly rail privatisation. It is of no earthly use to anyone who lives more than fifteen minutes from the stops being built and everyone else - yes - everyone - is diminished by being excluded from a viable national network, seeing funds that should be being used to create resilience and diversionary capacity that could benefit large areas of the remainder of Britain starved of investment and journey choice - No sorry HS2 isn't and never was the answer to anything but a London Centric wet dreamer!

I live about 15 minutes from my local rail station (not on HS2). It then takes me 25 minutes to get to Leeds.

I travel by rail regularly for business and pleasure.

I'm looking forward to faster journeys to London and Birmingham and more direct trains from Leeds to some of the destinations on the ECML.

Not all my journeys to London are because I'm going to London - I'm often travelling through to Surrey or Slough.

The only way I can see them messing up is overpricing HS2, but that shouldn't happen.

 

[TBirdFrank]

There is but one pot of money - the money wasted on HS2 can not then be spent on the existing network - which is what needs upgrading, loops and slow lines re-instating - missing links building - the best example was amazingly encountered only two weeks ago when TPE diverted Manchester Newcastles via Sheffield to maintain a service. HS2 does not and cannot provide what is needed for the rest of the country.

We are never going to agree - those with a vision beyond London centric and who have worked with expanding the existing network,not by-passing it have a different perspective. I hope you are happy when the new fast shiny appears - the best days are already past.

 

[Deerfold]

There is but one pot of money - the money wasted on HS2 can not then be spent on the existing network - which is what needs upgrading, loops and slow lines re-instating - missing links building - the best example was amazingly encountered only two weeks ago when TPE diverted Manchester Newcastles via Sheffield to maintain a service. HS2 does not and cannot provide what is needed for the rest of the country.

That's simply not true. The government is borrowing money against the extra income that will come from HS2. If HS2 is not built, that income does not exist.

I'd hardly describe myself as London-centric. I've lived in Yorkshire for all more than 3/4 of my life and work for a company that takes me all over the country (and occasionally beyond).

 

[PR1Berske]

To avoid complete thread tangent I might try to resurrect the thread asking why HS2 is so divisive amongst enthusiasts and RailUK posters. It's quite something that the project, still to this day, is so polarising.

 

[Deerfold]

To avoid complete thread tangent I might try to resurrect the thread asking why HS2 is so divisive amongst enthusiasts and RailUK posters. It's quite something that the project, still to this day, is so polarising.

It is on here (though not evenly split, I'd guess) but it has cross party support - there are 11 sitting MPs who are members of parties who oppose it (and a handful of rebels within the larger parties).

 

[Ianno87]

HS2 does not and cannot provide what is needed for the rest of the country.

Nor does it pretend it is trying to. That is why complementary schemes like Northern Powerhouse Rail exist, to build upon the HS2 infrastructure.

 

[The Ham]

To avoid complete thread tangent I might try to resurrect the thread asking why HS2 is so divisive amongst enthusiasts and RailUK posters. It's quite something that the project, still to this day, is so polarising.

I would guess that it boils down to three things for those who oppose it.

First, beecause the main destination appears to be London and given the perceived lack of rail spend in the North (or southwest or any other region) means those in the North feel that this is London getting the spending yet again.

Second, those who live in the Southeast who are faced by overcrowd trains then look at the new line going nowhere near them and think that's not going to help them.

Finally, there's those who don't want the money spent. Whether that's the likes of the Taxpayer's Alliance who appear that they don't want any money spent, or those who think that it should be spent elsewhere (i.e. on the NHS or on their pet rail project). As such will oppose HS2.

Then on the other side there's a number of reasons why people think that's is a good project. They'll be some who just want more spent on rail and so think that's a good thing. They'll be those who think that it will benefit them and so support it. There'll be those who see that there's a lot of investment in the North and so see it as a way of the bring a rebalancing of rail spend from the South. Then there's probably about 200 other reasons why they support it.

 

[Altnabreac]

I live about 15 minutes from my local rail station (not on HS2). It then takes me 25 minutes to get to Leeds.

I travel by rail regularly for business and pleasure.

I'm looking forward to faster journeys to London and Birmingham and more direct trains from Leeds to some of the destinations on the ECML.

Not all my journeys to London are because I'm going to London - I'm often travelling through to Surrey or Slough.

The only way I can see them messing up is overpricing HS2, but that shouldn't happen.

Leeds to Birmingham and other journeys on the NE/SW axis will really be some of the journeys most improved by HS2, a fact which doesn't get mentioned often enough.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Meanwhile in the HS2 debate taking place in the Commons, this is Michael Fabricant MP's contribution.

With minds like this the anti-HS2 brigade will surely win the argument and it won't be built. Anna Soubry's stoic reaction in the background is priceless.

 

[edwin_m]

He'll have to be careful crossing Birmingham though, on a windy day that hairpiece could cause some damage.

 

[B&I]

HS2 proponents on here might want to reconsider some of their arguments, in light of recent experience with the DfT, and things which have in fact happened over the past 12 months:-
1. 'Of course it won't be cancelled half way through'
2. 'Of course they wouldn't build infrastructure and then not use it for the promised service's
3. 'Of course they wouldn't commit political suicide by reneging on promises of investment outside the south east'.

Consideration might also be given to whether non-London residents are going to be persuaded by an argument that they should support HS2 because it will allow them to save 10 minutes on their journeys, just so long as they don't mind going into London and coming out again (presumably, paying a hefty surcharge for doing so for much of the working day).

It might also be questioned whether one of the reasons the topic is so divisive is the clash between the almost cultish fervour some of its supporters display (who all seem to live in places which will be served by HS2), and the deep cynicism of many opponents, itself a natural result of the relentless widening of the gap between the south east and everywhere else these last few decades.

I say all this as someone who supports a new north-south railway in principle, but who does not agree that every aspect of HS2 as planned is sensible.

 

[NSEFAN]

Consideration might also be given to whether non-London residents are going to be persuaded by an argument that they should support HS2 because it will allow them to save 10 minutes on their journeys, just so long as they don't mind going into London and coming out again (presumably, paying a hefty surcharge for doing so for much of the working day).

Not sure which journey you're using that as an example for, but you would indeed be pressed to convince anyone of that. However the prospect of more trains on their local line to work (possible due to expresses being segregated out) would be very appealing to many who commute.

 

[B&I]

Not sure which journey you're using that as an example for, but you would indeed be pressed to convince anyone of that. However the prospect of more trains on their local line to work (possible due to expresses being segregated out) would be very appealing to many who commute.

It would, but
a. That's only in prospect anywhere north of Brum after phase 2a
b. HS2 doesn't deliver that to any of the places served by classic compatibles
c. The impact of that will be reduced by the lack of accompanying projects to improve local public transport - HS2 could have got a lot of good PR, and brought more people into the railways, if there were schemes associated with the calling points to improve local rail / light rail access.

 

[NSEFAN]

a. That's only in prospect anywhere north of Brum after phase 2a

Agreed.

b. HS2 doesn't deliver that to any of the places served by classic compatibles

Also agreed, unless train frequencies or train capacity to those places increase (which may be possible in some cases).

c. The impact of that will be reduced by the lack of accompanying projects to improve local public transport - HS2 could have got a lot of good PR, and brought more people into the railways, if there were schemes associated with the calling points to improve local rail / light rail access.

I thought that connections at the various stations on HS2 were to have local transport/connections improved? Euston being rebuilt. Connections at Old Oak Common. Birmingham, Toton and Manchester getting at least tram connections to the HS2 stations. Have these been curtailed?

Even if they have, at the very, very least there will be more space on the existing WCML trains to Euston when passengers are segregated off onto the HS2 services, so there will be some improvement on the current situation. This obviously isn't a good use of the line if that does happen, but once the line is there there is a lot of potential to then develop the connections later; the trains may last 30 years, the line maybe last centuries?

To an extent, it makes sense to make local transport improvements seperate projects from HS2, as these can be delivered independently and don't risk being cut out in order to reduce the headline price of HS2, which is all that most seem to care about.

 

[B&I]

Agreed.

Also agreed, unless train frequencies or train capacity to those places increase (which may be possible in some cases).

I thought that connections at the various stations on HS2 were to have local transport/connections improved? Euston being rebuilt. Connections at Old Oak Common. Birmingham, Toton and Manchester getting at least tram connections to the HS2 stations. Have these been curtailed?

Even if they have, at the very, very least there will be more space on the existing WCML trains to Euston when passengers are segregated off onto the HS2 services, so there will be some improvement on the current situation. This obviously isn't a good use of the line if that does happen, but once the line is there there is a lot of potential to then develop the connections later; the trains may last 30 years, the line maybe last centuries?

To an extent, it makes sense to make local transport improvements seperate projects from HS2, as these can be delivered independently and don't risk being cut out in order to reduce the headline price of HS2, which is all that most seem to care about.

I see that argument, but HS2 would be a lot more popular among people who are never likely to use it if local benefits were made more apparent. Apart from the Toton tram extension, and maybe Crossrail 2, I'm not aware of any local transport infrastructure designed to improve access to HS2. There still seems to be far too much of an assumption that most users will be travelling to the stations in BMWs or Lexi.

 

[The Ham]

I see that argument, but HS2 would be a lot more popular among people who are never likely to use it if local benefits were made more apparent. Apart from the Toton tram extension, and maybe Crossrail 2, I'm not aware of any local transport infrastructure designed to improve access to HS2. There still seems to be far too much of an assumption that most users will be travelling to the stations in BMWs or Lexi.

I think that the lack of discussion about what will happen on the existing lines is one of the opportunities missed with HS2.

As if the industry (and maybe even individuals) had been given opportunities to put forward suggestions of possible calling patterns for new services following the withdrawal of the long distance services from the existing network one they move to HS2 then chances are petite might have been more supportive of the project as a whole.

Even if it was clear that only a small amount of the options being discussed would have resulted in real world services, the chances are that those who missed out on their favourite project would be upset after HS2 had started to be built.

 

[158756]

Agreed.

I thought that connections at the various stations on HS2 were to have local transport/connections improved? Euston being rebuilt. Connections at Old Oak Common. Birmingham, Toton and Manchester getting at least tram connections to the HS2 stations. Have these been curtailed?
.

Not that I know of. Many people don't feel that that's good enough though, when the city centres will become closer to London than their own suburbs. I'd like to see an actual plan for connections at Toton, tram notwithstanding, it looks very much a station intended to be accessed by car, which wouldn't be great for Nottingham and Derby's centres if it is very much easier to travel away from the city than to it.

My other concern with HS2 is that while the capacity is necessary, it mostly benefits London, and I remain sceptical that the promised economic benefits to other cities will ever transpire. The pulling power of London is so great - will any business want to be in Leeds or Manchester, when London is an infinitely better place to do business and there's no need for staff in the regions because someone can come up from London in an hour? I'm not convinced. If they want cheaper offices there's Outer London and the Home Counties, with access to a much bigger labour pool and better access to London, even with HS2 (and an even bigger labour pool, because morning trains from the North to London will inevitably be stuffed full of commuters, which won't work the other way because of the cost of living in London).

 

[The Ham]

My other concern with HS2 is that while the capacity is necessary, it mostly benefits London, and I remain sceptical that the promised economic benefits to other cities will ever transpire. The pulling power of London is so great - will any business want to be in Leeds or Manchester, when London is an infinitely better place to do business and there's no need for staff in the regions because someone can come up from London in an hour? I'm not convinced. If they want cheaper offices there's Outer London and the Home Counties, with access to a much bigger labour pool and better access to London, even with HS2 (and an even bigger labour pool, because morning trains from the North to London will inevitably be stuffed full of commuters, which won't work the other way because of the cost of living in London).

I've only ever worked for companies that are based 45-60 minutes from London by train (and there's a lot of them), the train being is that you can be in London really quite quickly but benefit from staff having lower transport and housing costs as well as having shorter journey times. Although that doesn't directly mean that is cheaper for the company it does mean that people feel richer (I've just stopped needing to travel by train and it's the same as having a >£3,000 pay rise) and have more time at home (likewise I can leave home 45 minutes later and I'm home at least 60 minutes earlier as I now have a 15 minutes walk each way).

The companies I've worked for have always done well and have rarely had problems finding staff or work.

I think some people underestimate how much office space can cost, one company I worked for had a Northern office and a Southern office and the latter pain in one month the same as the Northern office did for nearly the whole year. Yes the Northern office was about half the size, but even then it was quite a significant saving.

Sometimes it's quicker to get to central London from Reading or Guildford than some of the outer edges of London because your reliant on tube trains rather than faster limited stop service and/or you need to change to head inwards.

 

[The Planner]

I think that the lack of discussion about what will happen on the existing lines is one of the opportunities missed with HS2.

As if the industry (and maybe even individuals) had been given opportunities to put forward suggestions of possible calling patterns for new services following the withdrawal of the long distance services from the existing network one they move to HS2 then chances are petite might have been more supportive of the project as a whole.

Even if it was clear that only a small amount of the options being discussed would have resulted in real world services, the chances are that those who missed out on their favourite project would be upset after HS2 had started to be built.

All of that is still up for grabs, there is no confirmed timetable or service pattern for 2026 onwards yet.

 

[edwin_m]

I see that argument, but HS2 would be a lot more popular among people who are never likely to use it if local benefits were made more apparent. Apart from the Toton tram extension, and maybe Crossrail 2, I'm not aware of any local transport infrastructure designed to improve access to HS2. There still seems to be far too much of an assumption that most users will be travelling to the stations in BMWs or Lexi.

TfGM has been actively looking for some years at public transport access for the Manchester Airport station - although not close to the existing Metrolink they have powers for the unbuilt part of the Wythenshawe loop which would pass close to the site. There have also been busway options discussed elsewhere on the forum. The site is on the southern fringe of the built-up area so has potential for good access from quite a few suburbs.

West Midlands is extending Metro to the Curzon Street station (one of whose exits will be adjacent to Moor Street) and intends also to run trams to the Interchange although this seems to be a later proposal. There are also various ideas being looked at for heavy rail connecting services at Toton, and/or further tram extensions, recognising that the existing Toton tram line would only be competitive for some parts of western Nottingham.

 

[Altnabreac]

All of that is still up for grabs, there is no confirmed timetable or service pattern for 2026 onwards yet.

I understand a new service pattern will be issued with the Phase 2B bill in 2019 although even that is of course subject to future change and will merely be an example for the indicative business case.

 

[snowball]

TfGM has been actively looking for some years at public transport access for the Manchester Airport station - although not close to the existing Metrolink they have powers for the unbuilt part of the Wythenshawe loop which would pass close to the site.

I'm not sure those powers haven't lapsed. A new Transport & Works Order was required for the Metrolink Trafford Park extension as the previous powers had lapsed. However current committee papers show they are progressing the first bit and keeping the rest in mind:

https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/2907/item_5_metrolink_capital_update

5. Metrolink Expansion Funding Bids

5.1 Further to the award of development funding from the Department for Transport (DfT), a funding bid has recently been submitted to extend Metrolink from the current station at the airport to Terminal 2 (T2). This scheme will align with Manchester Airport Group’s intended expansion of T2 and the future development of Airport City.

5.2 Members will be advised of the outcome of this bid in due course.

5.3 Subject to the availability of funding and the demonstration of an appropriate business case, it is proposed to extend the T2 link to the HS2 station at the airport in the future, as part of the wider Western Loop initiative.

 

[B&I]

TfGM has been actively looking for some years at public transport access for the Manchester Airport station - although not close to the existing Metrolink they have powers for the unbuilt part of the Wythenshawe loop which would pass close to the site. There have also been busway options discussed elsewhere on the forum. The site is on the southern fringe of the built-up area so has potential for good access from quite a few suburbs.

West Midlands is extending Metro to the Curzon Street station (one of whose exits will be adjacent to Moor Street) and intends also to run trams to the Interchange although this seems to be a later proposal. There are also various ideas being looked at for heavy rail connecting services at Toton, and/or further tram extensions, recognising that the existing Toton tram line would only be competitive for some parts of western Nottingham.

What do all those proposals have in common ? They're all necessary only because of where HS2 stations have been positioned, and are of limited benefit to the overall transport networks of the urban areas concerned.

 

[edwin_m]

What do all those proposals have in common ? They're all necessary only because of where HS2 stations have been positioned, and are of limited benefit to the overall transport networks of the urban areas concerned.

Manchester and Leeds will also have HS2 stations positioned close to their central railway stations and therefore well-served by existing public transport. Birmingham is slightly less well located but given that New Street is right in the city centre with no space nearby, and the cost and practicality issues with underground stations, it's difficult to see what else cold have been done (and it's well place for connections to Moor Street).

While I'm not in favour of encouraging access by car, I think it's reasonable that park and ride should be provided for HS2 provided (as in those cases) those accessing by public transport are also catered for. The Toton situation is less satisfactory due to the lack of a corresponding city centre station, but it's difficult to see how it could have been made any better given the need to serve two or three medium-sized cities that aren't positioned in a straight line.

Your previous post asked why local transport links weren't being provided to access HS2. I have quoted some and you are now complaining that those local transport links are only being provided to access HS2...

 

[NSEFAN]

Manchester and Leeds will also have HS2 stations positioned close to their central railway stations and therefore well-served by existing public transport. Birmingham is slightly less well located but given that New Street is right in the city centre with no space nearby, and the cost and practicality issues with underground stations, it's difficult to see what else cold have been done (and it's well place for connections to Moor Street).

While I'm not in favour of encouraging access by car, I think it's reasonable that park and ride should be provided for HS2 provided (as in those cases) those accessing by public transport are also catered for. The Toton situation is less satisfactory due to the lack of a corresponding city centre station, but it's difficult to see how it could have been made any better given the need to serve two or three medium-sized cities that aren't positioned in a straight line.

Your previous post asked why local transport links weren't being provided to access HS2. I have quoted some and you are now complaining that those local transport links are only being provided to access HS2...

I think B&I's point was that the local transport improvements done in connection with HS2 should have greater focus on improving journeys that don't rely on HS2, in order to reduce local opposition. Personally I don't think this is a good idea, because they can easily become sacrificial if the government decides to save money to try and look good, whereas there's only so much by which you can downgrade the core project before you may as well just cancel it (a situation that still won't help local transport improvements). If local improvements unrelated to HS2 are kept separate, then there's less incentive to do this. Indeed it's an advantage of having the different funding mechanisms of HS2 and NR: they aught not to affect one another too much.

 

[edwin_m]

I think B&I's point was that the local transport improvements done in connection with HS2 should have greater focus on improving journeys that don't rely on HS2, in order to reduce local opposition. Personally I don't think this is a good idea, because they can easily become sacrificial if the government decides to save money to try and look good, whereas there's only so much by which you can downgrade the core project before you may as well just cancel it (a situation that still won't help local transport improvements). If local improvements unrelated to HS2 are kept separate, then there's less incentive to do this. Indeed it's an advantage of having the different funding mechanisms of HS2 and NR: they aught not to affect one another too much.

The Metrolink western loop via the potential HS2 station was proposed many years before HS2, so must have some justification on local transport grounds, but never enough to get funding. HS2 makes it more likely that it will, and if so it is the perfect example of a local route benefitting from HS2.

 

[Ianno87]

The Metrolink western loop via the potential HS2 station was proposed many years before HS2, so must have some justification on local transport grounds, but never enough to get funding. HS2 makes it more likely that it will, and if so it is the perfect example of a local route benefitting from HS2.

The Western Loop would:
-Offer a faster tram route to the Airport than the current route via Wythenshawe
-Give direct tram access to Wythenshawe Hospital, a major traffic generator
-Support a 6 minute service on the Airport line (alternating directions around the loop)
-Give access to employment at Airport City

Access to HS2 via this route would be over and above these benefits.

 

[snowball]

In fact, from Roundthorn southwards, the western route was the first proposd Metrolink route to Wythenshawe and the airport. The route that has since been built was thought of later.

 

[B&I]

Manchester and Leeds will also have HS2 stations positioned close to their central railway stations and therefore well-served by existing public transport. Birmingham is slightly less well located but given that New Street is right in the city centre with no space nearby, and the cost and practicality issues with underground stations, it's difficult to see what else cold have been done (and it's well place for connections to Moor Street).

While I'm not in favour of encouraging access by car, I think it's reasonable that park and ride should be provided for HS2 provided (as in those cases) those accessing by public transport are also catered for. The Toton situation is less satisfactory due to the lack of a corresponding city centre station, but it's difficult to see how it could have been made any better given the need to serve two or three medium-sized cities that aren't positioned in a straight line.

Your previous post asked why local transport links weren't being provided to access HS2. I have quoted some and you are now complaining that those local transport links are only being provided to access HS2...

The point I was trying to make, not very well, is that those links are only necessary because of where HS2 stations are going. In other words, there is no net benefit to local transport networks, except to a limited extent in order to access HS2. The examples you cite all underline the basic inadequacy of public transport in pretty much every British city outside London.

 

[aylesbury]

I see that people in Scotland are suggesting a link to the Borders line so as to give a quicker journey to Edinborough don't think that would be feasible ,whats theviews on this.