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HS2 : how would you build it?

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30907

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HSTEd

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It would probably cost less to build a suspension footbridge over the top of the British Library
 

Sceptre

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Re Meadowhall: isn't Midland to Euston now going to be slower than it would've been with a change at Meadowhall?

Sheffield City Council are no strangers to PR blunders (just ask anyone about the trees), but HS2 to Midland was a whopper of a bad decision. Anyone could've told you that Midland can't really handle HS2 on-line, and Victoria has the same problems that Leeds New Lane had (long walk to the classic station, immediate geography (including the river and pedestrian-hostile road layouts) separating it from the city's centre of gravity).
 

HSTEd

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Re Meadowhall: isn't Midland to Euston now going to be slower than it would've been with a change at Meadowhall?
That depends on how you estimate connection times at Meadowhall, but probably.
 

ohgoditsjames

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Re Meadowhall: isn't Midland to Euston now going to be slower than it would've been with a change at Meadowhall?

Sheffield City Council are no strangers to PR blunders (just ask anyone about the trees), but HS2 to Midland was a whopper of a bad decision. Anyone could've told you that Midland can't really handle HS2 on-line, and Victoria has the same problems that Leeds New Lane had (long walk to the classic station, immediate geography (including the river and pedestrian-hostile road layouts) separating it from the city's centre of gravity).
When you factor in having to get from Midland to Meadowhall then really it’s not much slower. People want direct connections without the inconvenience of having to travel to an out of town shopping centre.
 

mmh

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Imagine if it was proposed that HS2 should terminate in Manchester at the Trafford Centre because after all there'll be a perfectly good tram connection to the city centre. No, I can't imagine that either.
 

The Ham

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Imagine if it was proposed that HS2 should terminate in Manchester at the Trafford Centre because after all there'll be a perfectly good tram connection to the city centre. No, I can't imagine that either.

Why not, it would make it cheaper to build!?!

That's not a serious question for those in any doubt
 

tbtc

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When you factor in having to get from Midland to Meadowhall then really it’s not much slower. People want direct connections without the inconvenience of having to travel to an out of town shopping centre.

You mean a journey of under ten minutes (with nine trains per hour)?

Or around fifteen minutes difference for a direct tram service from Meadowhall to Cathedral/University (compared to getting the tram from Midland)?

Not too arduous (Midland is still at the bottom of the hill, some walk from the "proper" city centre)

Imagine if it was proposed that HS2 should terminate in Manchester at the Trafford Centre because after all there'll be a perfectly good tram connection to the city centre. No, I can't imagine that either.

Does the Trafford Centre have a busy heavy rail station with lines towards all major towns in the region? I mean, maybe the comparison would work if you'd chosen Warrington, i.e. a place with good connections towards Liverpool/ Manchester/ Chester etc.

Sheffield had the option for a station inside the city boundaries (Meadowhall), good regional connections, fast frequent services to London and Leeds... instead, the council gambled in the hope of the whole HS2 route being diverted through Victoria (hoping that Sheffield was important enough warrant slowing everyone else's journeys down)... we shouldn't have taken the risk as we've ended up with a much worse set up - just an hourly London train (which will run relatively slowly along the existing line through Chesterfield etc, providing much small time savings compared to a Meadowhall station) and no realistic hope of the improved service to Leeds that Sheffield could have had).

We also hobble ourselves by trying to accommodate long HS2 trains at Midland where there's barely enough space for existing services in 2020 (and the geography - station built directly on top of the river, steep hill to the east, ring road hemming the station in to the west) - so existing services may suffer because we need to give up one of the through platforms for HS2 services laying over (whilst Manchester/ Leeds will get dedicated infrastructure).

Meanwhile, Leeds gets a faster London service (since the line can now run east of Rotherham), making Sheffield even less attractive than Leeds when it comes to London services (fewer services, slower services) - ruining the competitive advantage that we'd have had if a station inside Sheffield had been on the route from London to Leeds.

Realistically, Sheffield isn't a "top tier" city - some other cities either won't have any HS2 service (Bradford) or will be similarly reliant upon having HS2 services trundle along on conventional lines (Liverpool) or have a station on the edge of town (Derby, Nottingham). We had a reasonable deal with a Meadowhall station but got greedy and the gamble failed.
 

ohgoditsjames

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You mean a journey of under ten minutes (with nine trains per hour)?

Or around fifteen minutes difference for a direct tram service from Meadowhall to Cathedral/University (compared to getting the tram from Midland)?

Not too arduous (Midland is still at the bottom of the hill, some walk from the "proper" city centre)

Yes I mean exactly that. All those trains to Meadowhall are at the mercy of the Northern throat, whilst on paper the journey time is 5 minutes however in reality as soon as there’s a late south bound service it delays the north bound services.
 

HSTEd

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Imagine if it was proposed that HS2 should terminate in Manchester at the Trafford Centre because after all there'll be a perfectly good tram connection to the city centre. No, I can't imagine that either.
I must have missed the Trafford Centre railway station with train services running in all directions.
 

Sad Sprinter

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1. I have long been an advocate of through stations at Manchester and Birmingham. These strengthen the case for Heathrow/Channel services if a service starts from Manchester and can pick up Birmingham passengers as well. Plus, it would mean more passangers on a HS2 extension to Scotland if trains could pick up passengers at Birmingham and Manchester.

2. Terminating HS2 at Manchester Victoria-gives a ready made east-west corridor for HS3.

3. Moving the Wigan bound junction north of Manchester Airport-gives a direct connection from Glasgow/Edinburgh to the airport in about an hour.

In regards to an extension of the eastern arm to London, a popular proposal is to extend it via Stansted Airport, whilst this seems great in principle, wouldn't it create a massive dogleg in the route to Totton?
 

edwin_m

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1. I have long been an advocate of through stations at Manchester and Birmingham. These strengthen the case for Heathrow/Channel services if a service starts from Manchester and can pick up Birmingham passengers as well. Plus, it would mean more passangers on a HS2 extension to Scotland if trains could pick up passengers at Birmingham and Manchester.
There are no plans for Heathrow/Channel services. It's probably impossible to locate a station under Heathrow that would be any more convenient than calling at OOC, and the economics of a Channel service just don't work unless the UK joins Schengen and abandons Tunnel security controls. Even if that happened anywhere north of Birmingham would be totally uncompetitive with flying and even if flying was banned numbers would be too low for through services.

Birmingham Interchange is a through station, with connections from Curzon Street via HS2 or from the existing network via proposed shuttle from International. Some of the London-Scotland trains are planned to call there.
2. Terminating HS2 at Manchester Victoria-gives a ready made east-west corridor for HS3.
Where's the space at Victoria without demolishing the existing station. Piccadilly has a large and mostly empty space on an east-west axis so anything at Piccadilly is likely to be easier than anything at Victoria.
3. Moving the Wigan bound junction north of Manchester Airport-gives a direct connection from Glasgow/Edinburgh to the airport in about an hour.
No capacity for that if you also want to run NPR through the airport as well. And it would miss Glasgow/Edinburgh to central Manchester which is a far more important destination.
In regards to an extension of the eastern arm to London, a popular proposal is to extend it via Stansted Airport, whilst this seems great in principle, wouldn't it create a massive dogleg in the route to Totton?
It would, but less massive than the current proposed dogleg via the outskirts of Birmingham. It's Toton by the way.
 

HSTEd

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In regards to an extension of the eastern arm to London, a popular proposal is to extend it via Stansted Airport, whilst this seems great in principle, wouldn't it create a massive dogleg in the route to Totton?

I make King's Cross to the vicinity of Toton Yard in a straight line about 171km.
Proceeding in a dog leg straight line to Stansted and then to Toton comes out at about 196km.

So 25km, which in normal circumstances would be a significant difference.
But at 320km/h it is about 4.7 minutes of additional travel time.
 
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