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HS2 in the press

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JohnB57

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For clarity, the revised Leeds proposal is for common concourse, not an actual rail connection. I'm sure that's what Polarbear meant, but for anyone who hasn't seen the BBC regional news, the new station will be a "T" shape with, obviously, HS2 on the leg.
 
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Altnabreac

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For clarity, the revised Leeds proposal is for common concourse, not an actual rail connection. I'm sure that's what Polarbear meant, but for anyone who hasn't seen the BBC regional news, the new station will be a "T" shape with, obviously, HS2 on the leg.

The thing that slightly puzzles me about the T shaped design is that this was one of the 5 key principles for choosing the station design according to the Yorkshire Hub document:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/480396/Higgins_-_The_Yorkshire_Hub.pdf

4. The station and its approaches should allow for through trains to
enhance local services to the rest of the city region. This should
include a connection between HS2 and the existing network, to
enable some classic compatible HS2 trains to run through the existing
station to and from York and beyond. This combined with the
connection between HS2 and the East Coast Main Line would deliver
substantial benefits for York Central, one of the most significant
Northern Powerhouse projects.

The initial plans for the eastern leg of HS2 had no access to the classic network for classic compatible services between Birmingham and Church Fenton.

I have always thought there should be at least three out of the following 5, preferably 1,3 & 5:
  1. Toton south - CC Cross country services to Leicester, St Pancras.
  2. Toton north - CC services to Chesterfield, Sheffield.
  3. Killamarsh - CC services to Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster & Hull.
  4. Wakefield - CC services to Castleford, Hull.
  5. Rothwell - CC services to Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh.

Hopefully this means at the very least number 5 is being planned at the moment. This would be valuable for a number of classic compatible services that might not otherwise be able to use HS2 like Edinburgh - Birmingham via Leeds where a lot of the demand is to Leeds but otherwise operators would have to choose between using HS2 from Church Fenton and missing out Leeds or running on the classic network all the way from Leeds - Birmingham which would be a waste.
 

CdBrux

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I assumed the link is possibly more related to 'HS3' (or Northern Powerhouse Rail - NPR as it now seems to be known), depending on how TfN are thinking about that when they report next year. HS2 trains north of Leeds is already provided for, so it's only NPR trains which may (or may not) use part of the eastern HS2 leg that will want to call at Leeds then go north. This also has the happy effect, for HS2, or keeping any such cost off the HS2 budget.
 

Altnabreac

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I assumed the link is possibly more related to 'HS3' (or Northern Powerhouse Rail - NPR as it now seems to be known), depending on how TfN are thinking about that when they report next year. HS2 trains north of Leeds is already provided for, so it's only NPR trains which may (or may not) use part of the eastern HS2 leg that will want to call at Leeds then go north. This also has the happy effect, for HS2, or keeping any such cost off the HS2 budget.

The Northern Powerhouse bit is separate in the document:

3. The new station and its approaches should have sufficient capacity
and be future proofed to allow for the improvements needed to
accommodate significant increases in rail services resulting from the
Northern Powerhouse rail network, and on city region rail routes.
This should include four tracking to the east of the existing station.

So I'm fairly confident they are now proposing a connection to allow CC HS trains to use the existing Leeds station and then head north east to York and beyond.

Would also potentially allow a CC peak service from Harrogate / Skipton / Bradford (subject to electrification) to reverse in Leeds and then access the High Speed line.
 

CdBrux

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The Northern Powerhouse bit is separate in the document:



So I'm fairly confident they are now proposing a connection to allow CC HS trains to use the existing Leeds station and then head north east to York and beyond.


I am sure they are proposing a link, but not for HS2, rather HS3 / NPR trains - HS2 trains to York and beyond are catered for by the main line from which the Leeds city centre line is a spur.

I think we probably agree on the main points and I am just nitpicking a bit in the details.
 
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edwin_m

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I imagine a link could be provided from HS2 to the Normanton-Leeds line where they run alongside each other in the Stourton area. If this part of HS2 is used by regional services they could then use this link to enter the existing station from the west. Classic compatibles from the south could do the same, although London trains probably won't because if they did their times to York and beyond would be no quicker than the ECML.
 

WatcherZero

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We were expecting this one to come out last week, obviously with the autumn statement and Hendy they held off a bit.

I wasn't expecting it till early next year, though still mentions of a further report on integration and other Northern Powerhouse schemes at the start of next year and the final decisions on phase 2b at the end of next year.
 

Altnabreac

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I imagine a link could be provided from HS2 to the Normanton-Leeds line where they run alongside each other in the Stourton area. If this part of HS2 is used by regional services they could then use this link to enter the existing station from the west. Classic compatibles from the south could do the same, although London trains probably won't because if they did their times to York and beyond would be no quicker than the ECML.

I think it would be more used for something like a Birmingham Curzon St - Toton - Meadowhall - Leeds - York - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Glasgow service.

That way you can serve the Glasgow - Leeds market and the Newcastle - Birmingham market with the same train.
 

Haydn1971

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Interestingly the fast tracking of the Leeds-Sheffield section of line is glossed over - presumably until Autumn 2016 when the nail gun is injected in the Sheffield Victoria wet dream... Hopefully then we shall see a commitment to getting the HS2b line from just north of Meadowhall to Woodlesford or at very least, just east of Wakefield for a Classic Compatible service between Sheffield and Leeds
 

edwin_m

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I think it would be more used for something like a Birmingham Curzon St - Toton - Meadowhall - Leeds - York - Darlington - Newcastle - Edinburgh - Glasgow service.

That way you can serve the Glasgow - Leeds market and the Newcastle - Birmingham market with the same train.

Yes something similar crossed my mind too when I'd logged off after my previous post, though my thinking hadn't got as far as Glasgow! As they've ruled out a connection at Birmingham you could probably truncate most of the classic XC service at Leeds with connections into a half-hourly Birmingham-Leeds-Scotland.
 

Geezertronic

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The Ham

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The anti Hs2 campaign have been cynically exploiting the recent floods to run a petition calling for Hs2 to be scrapped and the money spent on flood defences. Here's my latest blog crunching the numbers & showing what they reveal.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2429461#post2429461

Given the number that have signed that petition is less than 6,400 people (less than 0.01% of the population) it would imply that there is very little support for the proposal to use HS2 to be used to provide flood defences. Although that isn't very surprising as those who are opposed to HS2 often want the money to be spent on the rest of the rail network.

As such it was a foolish petition to start as it would obviously result in less support than there are people who don't want HS2 but could be used by those who support HS2 to show how little support those opposed to HS2 have.
 

Geezertronic

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A new blog on the intimidation Hs2 Ltd faced in Camden yesterday; http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2480134#post2480134

I hope the law comes down on them just as hard as they do seem to on other protesting groups who go with the express intention of causing trouble. Again I feel more sympathy to the people who actually want to understand the impact on them rather than a handful (and you are right Paul, it was a handful) of people who go to cause trouble
 

The Ham

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A new blog on the antis last-ditch attempt to block the Hs2 Hybrid bill at its 3rd reading on the 23rd March can be found here;

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2495577#post2495577

Michael Fabricant's (MP) local paper has posted the story on line, after 2 days there are no comments!

TODAY (Thursday, March 10), the Government has tabled the final stage of the HS2 Bill for phase one from London to Birmingham and Lichfield.

The first phase of HS2 is planned to be built between Lichfield and Whittington.

In something of an 11th-hour attempt to scotch the controversial high-speed rail project, Lichfield MP Michael Fabricant has tabled a formal reasoned amendment to the Third Reading which would annul the Bill if passed.



Read more: http://www.lichfieldmercury.co.uk/G...tory-28899350-detail/story.html#ixzz42fXIXjpC
 

jon0844

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Michael Fabricant's (MP) local paper has posted the story on line, after 2 days there are no comments!

Face a trek across London from Euston to St Pancras? Does he know how close they are? Or will be if they're essentially linked up?
 

TheKnightWho

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This is the same man who recently had to apologise for shouting b******s very loudly in the chamber. Not someone who seems to have much of a handle on matters.
 
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He's a new blog exposing the fact the latest Gilligan scaremongering in the Telegraph is nothing more than one of his 2012 stories rewritten...http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2496851#post2496851

Here is Gilligans article in the Telegraph

HS2 at risk of derailing at top speeds, report finds

Secret research for the rail project warns of catastropic track failure without costly alterations

By Andrew Gilligan

Trains on Britain’s HS2 rail scheme are at risk of derailment and catastrophic track failure, according to previously secret research commissioned by HS2 itself.


Engineering changes will be needed to make the project safe, the study says. The alterations will raise costs, increase journey times, or both, and will “collapse” the scheme’s already shaky business case, according to opponents.

Ministers claim that HS2, running between London, Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester, will revolutionise rail travel and shrink the North-South divide.

But the findings today revealed by the Telegraph will reignite debate over whether the project, already costed at £50 billion, is a good use of public money.

In the research, completed last year, Prof Peter Woodward, one of the world’s leading experts in the geo-engineering of railways, found that the speeds proposed by HS2 – faster than any other high-speed line in the world – would create “critical track velocity effects” and “significant issues” with track instability.

Prof Woodward said that the ballasted track of the kind to be used by HS2 “may not be able to adequately retain the track geometry” at the 225mph line speed proposed. He said that “embankment instability, particularly over poor soils … will generate significant issues during construction and operational running”. Around 107 miles of the route, about a third of the total length, will run on embankments.

The research, classified “official-sensitive”, was commissioned after Prof Woodward warned that high-speed running created track problems that “may threaten the stability and safety of the train”.

He said that speeds as high as those planned by HS2 could cause “rapid deterioration of the track, ballast and sub-ballast, including possible derailment and ground failure”.

On Saturday, HS2 officials welcomed the analysis and said that detailed designs would be drawn up as they examine the ground along the route.

However, they declined to comment on the implications for the scheme of having to reduce train speeds, or say how much more money might need to be spent.

HS2 plans to start operations with trains running at 225mph in routine service, then increase speeds – to 250mph – within a few years. Most high-speed lines, including Britain’s Eurostar, run no faster than 186mph in routine service and the world’s current fastest rail-based trains, France’s TGV Est, travel no faster than 200mph.

Research by David Connolly, a colleague of Prof Woodward’s at Edinburgh’s Heriot-Watt University, has found that the safe maximum speed on the soft soil that occurs along much of HS2 may be as low as 157mph.

To avoid the danger, HS2 may have to be slowed to that speed on severalstretches, cutting or even eliminating its advantage over conventional rail. Alternatively, there may need to be massive works to stiffen the ground the line runs over, potentially adding billions of pounds to its cost.

Another expert in the field, Prof Victor Krylov of Loughborough University, who produced an influential early academic paper on the subject, said the danger was of a “ground-vibration boom, similar to a sonic boom”, which causes a sudden and “very large” increase in generated ground vibrations.

“What matters is when you cross the [speed] barrier,” he said. “If you do that, ground vibrations can increase twenty, thirty times.”

Prof Krylov said the effect, known as a “Rayleigh wave,” was greatest in soft ground and had been observed in trains travelling as slowly as 110mph in Sweden, across alluvial soil.

“The most straightforward way to improve the situation is just to make the ground stiffer – by injection of concrete, or by piling,” he said. “But the best or cheapest measure you can do is just to reduce the speed.”

However, HS2 needs to run at 225mph if it is to meet its ambitious business case and capacity claims.

Its planned two-track core route between London and the Midlands is supposed to be able to handle the traffic currently served by three separate main lines, to destinations including Birmingham, Manchester, the East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds and Scotland.

HS2 claims it will be able to run up to 18 trains an hour – one every three minutes 20 seconds – along the core route, more than on any other such high-speed line in the world.

If the trains had to be slower, frequencies would have to be reduced, putting at risk the promised service to many destinations.

Running at the industry standard of 186mph would cut the scheme’s already shrinking benefit-cost ratio by 15 per cent and erode the advantage over conventional rail on the London- Birmingham journey to only around 15 minutes. Running at 157mph would make the journey on HS2 only a few minutes quicker than the current conventional line.

The disclosures are the latest blow to the scheme, viewed by many even in the rail industry as unnecessary.

Last week, it emerged that the National Audit Office, which has been fiercely critical of HS2, was to begin a third review of the project. It also appears likely that the approving legislation will not now clear Parliament this year, amid anticipated delays in the Lords.

Based on months of computer modelling and work on testing rigs, Prof Woodward said his simulations “clearly show the development of Rayleigh wave effects… [and] the development of critical track velocity effects.”

He recommended massive ground stiffening and said that the track should be laid on a concrete slab. However, this would be more expensive and much noisier than ballast.

A spokesman for HS2, Ben Ruse, said: “We support the work by Prof Woodward. We recognise the need to mitigate for the phenomenon of Rayleigh waves and we have done. The detailed design will be based on the specific ground investigation works we are undertaking as we get access to all the route.”

HS2 declined to comment on the implications for the scheme of slowing down trains, stiffening the ground or switching to slab track.

As Paul says nothing new. shame though it was discussed on the Andrew Marr show wothout an expert to refute the claims.

A suspect we will see a flurry of desperiate anti-HS2 articles over the next few weeks as we approach the third reading of the HS2 bill.
 
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