HS2 Manchester leg scrapped: what should happen now?

[Irascible]

Unfortunately Manchester and Birmingham already require a change. I always thought the number of journeys where Euston-Paddington transfers are removed with a change at OOC was a massive benefit of HS2 that wasn’t shouted about enough - or does everyone expect me just fly from Scotland to the south west?

It wouldn't be any faster going from the SW - and by that I mean west of Taunton so it's not taking some near-Bristol advantage - to Scotland via OOC than existing XC. The only section that'd have done anything at all for the south-west is north of Birmingham. it's defintely not faster going to Birmingham. As I've said before, you can fly to Glasgow from Exeter, turn the aircraft around properply, fly back, turn it around again properly & fly back to Glasgow and the train still won't have got there, so if speed matters you're always going to fly.

By "turn around properly" I measn disembark everyone, refresh all the consumables that need to be refreshed, and then embark a new load, rather than just touch & go & head off.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

People who work in the industry.

My daughter for one. She comments "Dad, you would be horrified at the waste and inefficiency in the NHS." Another friend of mine (now sadly passed RIP) was a mental health specialist but did bank shifts as a nurse. I complained about the Royal Preston Hospital being ridiculously warm (heat energy) then on the ward windows left wide open just letting the heat go to waste. His reply "Nursing staff are not responsible for heating". Anyway, we are way way off topic sorry.

Inefficiency can also be found on the railways of course. Lots of money has been wasted.

 

[Irascible]

Individual clinical units are usually *extremely* efficient though ( source: someone who's job it is to monitor NHS units ). I bet there's individual units of NR who're also extremely efficient.

Had a lot of family & friends work for the NHS - alas not my generation, none of us were prepared to embark on that after the concreted attack from the 80s on - so I've no access to front line staff anymore.

 

[camflyer]

The big unknown is how much of this will Labour a) support b) reverse c) change

If all of these infrastructure proposals are to be paid for from the HS2 "saving" then it becomes hard for Labour to reinstate HS2 to Manchester without saying that they won't do the other stuff.

 

[HSTEd]

The big unknown is how much of this will Labour a) support b) reverse c) change

If all of these infrastructure proposals are to be paid for from the HS2 "saving" then it becomes hard for Labour to reinstate HS2 to Manchester without saying that they won't do the other stuff.

Labour won't want to reinstate it, they will take no position on it whatsoever.

Labour won't want to fight the next election on anything remotely controversial.

 

[Noddy]

Let's wait and see what these other transport projects are before judging too harshly. Thinking about it they will probably be out of office before any of them start so Manchester leg might be reinstated by the new incoming government.

Am i the only one that is glad?

So how how are you feeling today now you’ve seen the projects?

From what I can tell most of the projects seem to be road schemes. We are heading back to the car being king and the railway left to die. The railway/tram schemes that were announced appear to be a series of re-announcements (eg bordesley chords), projects that will get binned off once the actual numbers are run by adults (north wales electrification) or stuff that is just complete pie in the sky (Manchester-Bradford in 30min). And a scorched earth policy for Euston and the Phase 2 alignment/land. This is a truly dark dark day for the British Railway industry.

 

[eldomtom2]

Labour won't want to reinstate it, they will take no position on it whatsoever.

Labour won't want to fight the next election on anything remotely controversial.

Considering how much the Tories are being hammered for the cancellation reinstating at least 2a would make sense in my opinion.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Labour won't want to reinstate it, they will take no position on it whatsoever.

Labour won't want to fight the next election on anything remotely controversial.

You just named that tune in1 sir.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Labour won't want to reinstate it, they will take no position on it whatsoever.

Labour won't want to fight the next election on anything remotely controversial.

I am waiting to hear the Labour Party response at their forthcoming Party Conference.

 

[Arkeeos]

Labour should push for phase 2a, the route to stay protected, and 11 platforms at euston, or atleast provision for 11 platforms at euston.

 

[jon0844]

You just named that tune in1 sir.

I do think that once the election date is announced, Labour is going to have to grow a spine and make some decisions on what to say it will do. It can look at the views of the nation and how well some of the Tory policies and announcements have gone down, and then commit to some firm policies rather than 'sit on the fence' promises to look at things.

I am not sure they'll commit to saying anything at their conference, sadly.

 

[Basil Jet]

The Financial Times is reporting that the Chancellor Jeremy Hunt has saved Euston section, as not building to Central London would damage Britains reputation

Translation... "Not building to London would damage London's reputation, but not building to Manchester will only damage Manchester's reputation".

 

[Kieran1990]

been looking around to find a answer- but not getting far
1) NPR is still happening but will now go via Bradford then onto Leeds? Or to Marsden then separate routes to Leeds/ Bradford?
2) £12b for Manchester to Liverpool- is this to fill in for the HS2 infastrucer between Piccadilly-Airport-Warrington?

Part of me assumes none do the above is clear right now?

 

[Arkeeos]

been looking around to find a answer- but not getting far
1) NPR is still happening but will now go via Bradford then onto Leeds? Or to Marsden then separate routes to Leeds/ Bradford?
2) £12b for Manchester to Liverpool- is this to fill in for the HS2 infastrucer between Piccadilly-Airport-Warrington?

Part of me assumes none do the above is clear right now?

The "Network north" document lacks any maps, so no one knows the "NPR" route, It goes through Warrington then somehow into Manchester, then somehow to Leeds. But there's no capacity on the approach to Piccadilly, and then what? are trains going to reverse out of Piccadilly or are they going to go through castlefield? Its likely purposefully vague either because its never going to happen, or because it was drawn up by idiots in a week, or both. The £12b I think is just for electrification and constructing new track, if there was going to be tunnels he would have bragged about it.

I think this is the proposal, its not remotely feasible however

 

[daodao]

The "Network north" document lacks any maps, so no one knows the "NPR" route, It goes through Warrington then somehow into Manchester, then somehow to Leeds. But there's no capacity on the approach to Piccadilly, and then what? are trains going to reverse out of Piccadilly or are they going to go through castlefield? Its likely purposefully vague either because its never going to happen, or because it was drawn up by idiots in a week, or both. The £12b I think is just for electrification and constructing new track, if there was going to be tunnels he would have bragged about it.

I think this is the proposal, its not remotely feasible however

That plan looks like reusing the old ex-LNW Warrington-Stockport alignment. Fat chance!

 

[Arkeeos]

That plan looks like reusing the old ex-LNW Warrington-Stockport alignment. Fat chance!

Yeah its never happening, but I think that's the route they are referencing, unless they are talking about using CLC for long distance which is also not possible, or it would be incredibly stupid.

I've said this before but its the worst government report I've ever read, its just not serious, I honestly think there's a non zero chance HS2 could be put back by the end of the week just because this isn't usable.

 

[matacaster]

That plan looks like reusing the old ex-LNW Warrington-Stockport alignment. Fat chance!

Could the Manchester to Bradford connection be via Huddersfield using part of old direct line via brighouse?
(Slight problem of missing large viaduct at bailiff bridge)

 

[Arkeeos]

Could the Manchester to Bradford connection be via Huddersfield using part of old direct line via brighouse?
(Slight problem of missing large viaduct at bailiff bridge)

Unlikely, I think it’s just the existing route to Bradford.

It’s ridiculous that we are talking about this and we still have no idea what route they are talking about.

 

[Meerkat]

By the time of the election there might not be anything for Labour to reinstate. Safeguarding gone, a swift sell off of land holdings and a plan for 6 platforms at Euston kills HS2 beyond Handsacre.
Also if the the Treasury has reallocate the budget to Network North projects then Labour would have to find another £36Bn or choose between HS2 and Network North.
The rail construction industry has blown it. They should feel lucky that so many rail projects have been listed in the Network North budget.

 

[Peter Sarf]

By the time of the election there might not be anything for Labour to reinstate. Safeguarding gone, a swift sell off of land holdings and a plan for 6 platforms at Euston kills HS2 beyond Handsacre.
Also if the the Treasury has reallocate the budget to Network North projects then Labour would have to find another £36Bn or choose between HS2 and Network North.
The rail construction industry has blown it. They should feel lucky that so many rail projects have been listed in the Network North budget.

Some of those HS2 construction firms will be comfortable with road building schemes !.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Some of those HS2 construction firms will be comfortable with road building schemes !.

No doubt about it.

 

[Meerkat]

Some of those HS2 construction firms will be comfortable with road building schemes !.

More comfortable - much less media drama when you are late and over budget!

 

[Arkeeos]

More comfortable - much less media drama when you are late and over budget!

Hows the lower Thames crossing doing, nice and cosy with no one in The North really knowing about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's now being suggested* that Euston may only happen with private funding. If it doesn't happen, work should be stopped and all phases cancelled, no use throwing good money after bad.

* https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...th-other-projects.255629/page-21#post-6441379

and waste the squillions already spent ?

There is no point throwing good money after bad.

Complete what is already underway and once open I suspect pressure will build for extensions ...............
In the meantime we need to have a very good look at why costs are so high, agree a plan then keep government (of ALL colours) out of it !

If the Euston site is resold, there's no possibility of it ever getting there. You'd easily be able to add 2A and 2B later if needs be, but once you've got high value development on the Euston site compulsory purchasing it again would be hugely expensive, and to even sell it is likely to involve a deed of covenant that it will not be compulsory purchased for a goodly long period, at least the length of the initial leases on the flats.

It MUST go to Euston* straight away or it's worthless.

* Or another suitable location within Zone 1, though there aren't any, it's been done to death.

 

[Arkeeos]

It's now being suggested* that Euston may only happen with private funding. If it doesn't happen, work should be stopped and all phases cancelled, no use throwing good money after bad.

* https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...th-other-projects.255629/page-21#post-6441379



There is no point throwing good money after bad.



If the Euston site is resold, there's no possibility of it ever getting there. You'd easily be able to add 2A and 2B later if needs be, but once you've got high value development on the Euston site compulsory purchasing it again would be hugely expensive, and to even sell it is likely to involve a deed of covenant that it will not be compulsory purchased for a goodly long period, at least the length of the initial leases on the flats.

It MUST go to Euston* straight away or it's worthless.

* Or another suitable location within Zone 1, though there aren't any, it's been done to death.

Euston station and Handsacre was the compromise Street and Hunt came to, there is a deranged moron in control of the country, all we can hope is that decisions can be pushed back such that labour can get in.

 

[Sorcerer]

Euston only being possible with private funding sounds like a future setup to scrap the OOC-EUS section and blame it on a lack of investment that the government couldn't do anything about. Call me a pessimist but with how much has been thrown away with this project and knowing how little the Conservatives care about rail transport combined with poor leadership, I would not be surprised if that's how it went down.

 

[HSTEd]

If the Euston site is resold, there's no possibility of it ever getting there. You'd easily be able to add 2A and 2B later if needs be, but once you've got high value development on the Euston site compulsory purchasing it again would be hugely expensive, and to even sell it is likely to involve a deed of covenant that it will not be compulsory purchased for a goodly long period, at least the length of the initial leases on the flats.

I doubt a deed of covenant could withstand the power of Parliament though, although I'd expect it to increase the political cost.

Any chance that one the bulk of the ICWC traffic is out of the classic side, we could rebuild more of those platforms into HS2 ones, or will that cause too many problems in the HS2 throat?

It's now being suggested* that Euston may only happen with private funding. If it doesn't happen, work should be stopped and all phases cancelled, no use throwing good money after bad.

I expect Euston was only announced to keep Andy Street from resigning immediately after the speech.

It will be rowed back in short order.

 

[The Ham]

What should happen is that the routes are safeguarded.

What's likely to happen is that the land will get sold off for next to nothing and either brought back by a Labour government, the land owners (who won't be farmers but rather those who support the Tory Party) will make several thousand pounds per acre. If HS2 isn't pushed forwards the land will find it's way into various local plans as new houses making their owners several million pounds.

The land will be worthless to farmers, as they don't want to put in the effort only to find that it's being brought again in a year, 6, or 11 years when it's back on the table. Few other people will want to buy land for similar reasons, unless it's cheap (i.e. rather than £11,000 per acre £3,000 or maybe £4,500).

At that sort of value is the sort of price that developers can take a punt and even if they have to parcel it up for horses for a few years they'll get their money back one way or another (even if they spend several tens of thousands of pounds trying to get planning and mostly failing).

 

[eldomtom2]

What's likely to happen is that the land will get sold off for next to nothing

Likely to happen? The Tories have confirmed they're selling it off!

 

[devon_belle]

Likely to happen? The Tories have confirmed they're selling it off!

History repeats itself