HS2 Old Oak Common

[swt_passenger]

Couldn’t a connection be built at OOC to the West London Line to allow trains access down to Waterloo, terminating at the old Eurostar platforms?

Height difference is insurmountable as already mentioned in this and numerous other earlier threads.
It would also require something more like a 90° corner, rather than a normal radius railway curve..
The West London line has no capacity for additional trains.
The old Eurostar platforms are no longer spare as they’re used by existing services.
The time taken to get from OOC to Waterloo would be excessive even if it were practical.

 

[Tramtrain]

If capacity could be found, say 4x GWR services per hour could divert from OOC via Kensington and Vauxhall to Waterloo, as there’s already a connection GWML-WLL past the Hitachi depot (albeit some additional track might be needed). That would then create space for 3/4 HS2 trains per hour at Paddington. It would also open up a whole load of new journey opportunities. The ex Eurostar platforms at Waterloo must be somewhat underused, given the SWR Reading service was at times running 4 per hour pre Covid.

 

[DelW]

Of course that requires sufficient capacity on other forms of transport to take people from OOC onwards

If OOC is to be the HS2 terminus for an extended period or even permanently, then is it worth considering a local diversion of the existing Overground line between Willesden Junction and Shepherds Bush to serve it? That would give direct connection to a lot of areas of inner London, as well as connections to Southern and South Western at Clapham Junction.

Something will be needed to take pressure off the Elizabeth Line, and that's probably one of the more practical options. Certainly more so than bringing HS2 services up onto surface routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

If capacity could be found, say 4x GWR services per hour could divert from OOC via Kensington and Vauxhall to Waterloo, as there’s already a connection GWML-WLL past the Hitachi depot (albeit some additional track might be needed). That would then create space for 3/4 HS2 trains per hour at Paddington. It would also open up a whole load of new journey opportunities. The ex Eurostar platforms at Waterloo must be somewhat underused, given the SWR Reading service was at times running 4 per hour pre Covid.

For the avoidance of doubt:

1) it is not physically possible to get HS2 trains from OOC to Paddington - building a link is not possible without new tunnelling and widespread demolition

2) The WLL does not have capacity

3) The Windsor lines of the SWML do not have capacity

4) OOC to Paddington is 4 - 5 minutes. OOC to Waterloo would not be less than 20.

 

[JonathanH]

For the avoidance of doubt:

1) it is not physically possible to get HS2 trains from OOC to Paddington - building a link is not possible without new tunnelling and widespread demolition

2) The WLL does not have capacity

3) The Windsor lines of the SWML do not have capacity

4) OOC to Paddington is 4 - 5 minutes. OOC to Waterloo would not be less than 20.

5) No solution to send HS2 beyond Old Oak Common is free.

 

[camflyer]

5) No solution to send HS2 beyond Old Oak Common is free.

There is a mainline station in need of redevelopment which would be a perfect terminus for HS2 closer to central London. Euston, I think it's called.

 

[irish_rail]

So am I right in thinking now, that all thats left of HS2 is Curzon st to Old oak common? If so there is zero justification to build this line. No one will use it unless its considerably cheaper than WCML to Euston? Surely the plug needs pulling now on the lot before we waste any more money? Or alternatively, build it properly to Manchester and rest of North to make the extra GWML main line stops at least semi worthwhile!

 

[Bald Rick]

So am I right in thinking now, that all thats left of HS2 is Curzon st to Old oak common? If so there is zero justification to build this line.

No, you are not right in thinking that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, you are not right in thinking that.

For now.

 

[camflyer]

So am I right in thinking now, that all thats left of HS2 is Curzon st to Old oak common? If so there is zero justification to build this line. No one will use it unless its considerably cheaper than WCML to Euston? Surely the plug needs pulling now on the lot before we waste any more money? Or alternatively, build it properly to Manchester and rest of North to make the extra GWML main line stops at least semi worthwhile!

The only justification left is that cancelling Phase 1 would cost more than finishing it in terms of terminating contracts and undoing all of the work done so far.

 

[josh-j]

It's better than nothing, even if partly because other parts could - maybe - be built later

I think honestly any new bit of infrastructure we need to grab with both hands, even if only to keep it there for a benefit further down the line.

The more of the project that is lost, the harder it will be to recover. And the further into the race to the bottom we end up; a poor economy with barely any investment, hamstrung by poor public transport and the political consensus on actually building transport infrastructure now ripped up. It could take years to recover from this decision. The more that is still built, the more chance a future government will resume the whole thing.

The government right now needs no further encouragement to bin off anything - it has been their goal for a long time.

If they wanted to build this, even the raised cost - and everything has increased in cost due to inflation - isn't at all insurmountable when talking about national-scale funding and considering the benefits that we'd get afterwards.

Off topic for OOC I suppose, though what a stupid* decision to cancel any part of this, quite honestly. The same attitude that says we "can't afford" to stop schools falling down says we can't build a new railway line. Public financing isn't a household budget, they know this, so cancelling it is a political preference not a cost issue.

*Other less kind descriptions are available

 

[Some guy]

It's better than nothing, even if partly because other parts could - maybe - be built later

I think honestly any new bit of infrastructure we need to grab with both hands, even if only to keep it there for a benefit further down the line.

The more of the project that is lost, the harder it will be to recover. And the further into the race to the bottom we end up; a poor economy with barely any investment, hamstrung by poor public transport and the political consensus on actually building transport infrastructure now ripped up. It could take years to recover from this decision. The more that is still built, the more chance a future government will resume the whole thing.

The government right now needs no further encouragement to bin off anything - it has been their goal for a long time.

If they wanted to build this, even the raised cost - and everything has increased in cost due to inflation - isn't at all insurmountable when talking about national-scale funding and considering the benefits that we'd get afterwards.

Off topic for OOC I suppose, though what a stupid* decision to cancel any part of this, quite honestly. The same attitude that says we "can't afford" to stop schools falling down says we can't build a new railway line. Public financing isn't a household budget, they know this, so cancelling it is a political preference not a cost issue.

*Other less kind descriptions are available

Spot on seems that it’s all a massive excuse. Although costly they’ve spent far too much tax payers money and got invested into it for it to be called off. London to Birmingham can be done in 75 minutes on existing track increasing it to 200mph will only decrease journey time to about 45 minutes and then will have to be re-pathed on existing routes and track. Which means even more stock on a packed WCML.

An interesting thing I saw online. The price rarely get’s mentioned after mega projects get completed and will be a huge boost for existing stations on the mainline to gain more services to and from London and to take them north like Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton

The sooner a change of government the better.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

So am I right in thinking now, that all thats left of HS2 is Curzon st to Old oak common? If so there is zero justification to build this line. No one will use it unless its considerably cheaper than WCML to Euston? Surely the plug needs pulling now on the lot before we waste any more money? Or alternatively, build it properly to Manchester and rest of North to make the extra GWML main line stops at least semi worthwhile!

Interchange station is still on. It is near the NEC and Birmingham Airport. There is supposed to be a people mover to connect Interchange to the NEC and airport.

Will Euston and the Manchester stations be cut? Maybe. Probably. Lots of rumours. Nothing from government yet.


There certainly is a feel of desperation to get something done, even if it renders HS2 forever not fit for purpose.

 

[irish_rail]

Interchange station is still on. It is near the NEC and Birmingham Airport. There is supposed to be a people mover to connect Interchange to the NEC and airport.

Will Euston and the Manchester stations be cut? Maybe. Probably. Lots of rumours. Nothing from government yet.


There certainly is a feel of desperation to get something done, even if it renders HS2 forever not fit for purpose.

An interchange for the NEC and airport isn't enough for me to make this scheme even close to justifiable . It would be different perhaps if it went New Street for onward connections , but surely Curzon st is going to be very unpopular for anyone not travelling to Birmingham itself (even then surely its of less use than new street).

 

[D869]

Seems likely that OOC to Euston will not be scrapped, but phases 2a & 2b will.

 

[Nodding Cat Ch]

Why are the overground platforms not being called Old oak Common?
Won't that just make things more confusing?
Hythe Road and Old Oak Common Lane have been chosen as names.

 

[lachlan]

Why are the overground platforms not being called Old oak Common?
Won't that just make things more confusing?
Hythe Road and Old Oak Common Lane have been chosen as names.

View attachment 144206

Are any of the connecting stations bar Crossrail still happening?

 

[BrianW]

Are any of the connecting stations bar Crossrail still happening?

Why are the overground platforms not being called Old oak Common?
Won't that just make things more confusing?
Hythe Road and Old Oak Common Lane have been chosen as names.

View attachment 144206

OR ... why not ONE station, at Willesden Junction, with trains direct to Euston Via DC lines or from resurrected Mainline platforms? Maybe a people mover/ travolator, fixed link, shuttle, ... too big a challenge?

 

[The Planner]

OR ... why not ONE station, at Willesden Junction, with trains direct to Euston Via DC lines or from resurrected Mainline platforms? Maybe a people mover/ travolator, fixed link, shuttle, ... too big a challenge?

Dont understand the requirement to Euston when using the Elizabeth line is still likely to be quicker. Its around 1000m between OOC and Willesden, once you start factoring in connection and journey time across to Willesden you are probably going to be at Tottenham Court Road or further.

 

[uglymonkey]

Presumably people dont want to change trains until they get to their destination?

 

[Meerkat]

Why are the overground platforms not being called Old oak Common?

Because they are a fair walk from OOC. Far enough that they aren’t really interchange stations, particularly for those with bags. IMO a people mover from a much improved Willesden Junction would be a better bet.
As Euston is back on the to do list will the Euston tunnels now be started as soon as the TBMs are in place? Presumably the segment supplies etc are in place so it would be better to stick as near to the original schedule as possible.

 

[BrianW]

Dont understand the requirement to Euston when using the Elizabeth line is still likely to be quicker. Its around 1000m between OOC and Willesden, once you start factoring in connection and journey time across to Willesden you are probably going to be at Tottenham Court Road or further.

Ah yes, thank you. Some people seem to want, for some reason, to reach Euston off 'HS'2; and Willesden Junction provides connection to an extensive range of destinations, including North London and Clapham Junction. A line on tube like diagram will not show 1000m any more than say between terminals at Heathrow or between lines at many a London tube 'interchange'. I found this, which may be of interest, or not

Longest Tube interchange: 10 Tube stations where changing lines takes longest - CityAM

It’s not just your imagination: You really are spending hours of your life wandering around the labyrinthine tunnels that connect the different Tube lines at Bank and Monument. But as far as long Tube interchanges go, it’s not actually London’s worst. That dubious honour goes to Paddington...

www.cityam.com

 

[philosopher]

Why are the overground platforms not being called Old oak Common?
Won't that just make things more confusing?
Hythe Road and Old Oak Common Lane have been chosen as names.

View attachment 144206

Perhaps there is an opportunity to increase the tally of stations with Acton in the name!

 

[Geogregor]

So, does anyone know what is the latest regarding the TBMs which suppose to dig from OOC to Euston throat?

Have they been ordered? Is there any timeline they working to or is everything up in the air due to political ineptitude?

From what I understand they have to be lowered to the station box before the mainland station construction start in the earnest in the eastern end. Possessions are planned years in advance. There isn't much scope for movement here.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So, does anyone know what is the latest regarding the TBMs which suppose to dig from OOC to Euston throat?

Have they been ordered? Is there any timeline they working to or is everything up in the air due to political ineptitude?

From what I understand they have to be lowered to the station box before the mainland station construction start in the earnest in the eastern end. Possessions are planned years in advance. There isn't much scope for movement here.

Herrenknecht are building the two TBMs for Euston tunnels now and one presumes they wont be interned now but will actually get on with the build of the tunnels

 

[jazzy]

A slightly tangential question but typically how fast would a Bristol to Paddington train pass Old Oak Common at the moment? Have they started slowing for Paddington by then?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Herrenknecht are building the two TBMs for Euston tunnels now and one presumes they wont be interned now but will actually get on with the build of the tunnels

Philip Haigh (Rail Magazine) is one of several people on social media saying that Euston isn't actually funded but depends on private sector investment. He tweeted out this yesterday:

"A bit more on Euston HS2. Building the station and tunnels from Old Oak Common now depends on private money, I understand. If there's no private sector investment then there's no Euston station and HS2's revised 8tph service will terminate at OOC."

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1709879961761329312

 

[The Planner]

A slightly tangential question but typically how fast would a Bristol to Paddington train pass Old Oak Common at the moment? Have they started slowing for Paddington by then?

Line speed is 100mph, but on the up I would expect them to be thinking of backing off for the 50 at Kensal Green.

 

[SynthD]

A slightly tangential question but typically how fast would a Bristol to Paddington train pass Old Oak Common at the moment? Have they started slowing for Paddington by then?

Yes. The 125 section ends at Ealing, from there to north Kensington it is 100.

Philip Haigh (Rail Magazine) is one of several people on social media saying that Euston isn't actually funded but depends on private sector investment.

That means the station development might have a more rational client, who decides they want oversite development and sticks with that choice. The client will still be in frequent conversation with the Tory party accountants in 2024, so perhaps not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So, does anyone know what is the latest regarding the TBMs which suppose to dig from OOC to Euston throat?
Have they been ordered? Is there any timeline they working to or is everything up in the air due to political ineptitude?
From what I understand they have to be lowered to the station box before the mainland station construction start in the earnest in the eastern end. Possessions are planned years in advance. There isn't much scope for movement here.

The TBMs are under construction and are planned to be placed at the tunnel portal next year, ready for the off to be given.
The 853m logistics tunnel under the OOC site to enable them to be operational there is creeping forward and as far as I know is still at work.
I don't think there are any issues with the Euston tunnelling itself, just the configuration of the station when they get there.