HS2 Old Oak Common

[Agent_Squash]

Although good points have been made about the benefits of HS2, they’ve failed to answer the question that started this, which was it doesn’t benefit the current users of the GWML who are affected by the works. Someone from Bristol, Cardiff or Penzance who would take XC, but may take HS2, isn’t as affected by these works because they aren’t travelling into London now. Meanwhile those of us who have suffered going on a decade of disruption now have half a decade more almost guaranteed. For most people living outside Reading that has been to bring the Elizabeth line, from which they have seen little benefit, at least from the bit that the disruption was for.

Easier connections and a more reliable Elizabeth Line through the removal of autoreverse. That’s the benefit for GWML passengers.

Again, this is standard practice in most of Europe. It’s a mainline railway connection station.

 

[Benjwri]

Easier connections and a more reliable Elizabeth Line through the removal of autoreverse. That’s the benefit for GWML passengers.

Easier connections is true, for those that are connecting to the Elizabeth Line. As I understand it the removal of auto reverse isn’t. The trains will still travel into sidings past OOC, then auto reverse back?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Easier connections is true, for those that are connecting to the Elizabeth Line. As I understand it the removal of auto reverse isn’t. The trains will still travel into sidings past OOC, then auto reverse back?

Not as far as I’m aware - there’s 4 EL platforms to handle terminating and through moves.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not as far as I’m aware - there’s 4 EL platforms to handle terminating and through moves.

There are still central reversing sidings as well, just west of OOC between the up and down reliefs. I’m sure there‘s a track plan been posted before somewhere.

I’ve found it, post #107 last April shows the intended layout.

 

[Benjwri]

Not as far as I’m aware - there’s 4 EL platforms to handle terminating and through moves.

That’s not what I understand. 3 reversing sidings, trains treat the platforms like they do Paddington. Having just two platforms would cause a significant choke point.

 

[irish_rail]

Why should SW passengers be unfairly prioritised over the national need?

Well it's highly debatable that it's national need. But why should people from the south west suffer for something for which they derive zero benefit? The irony is one reason that HS2 was chosen over upgrading the WCML line, was in order to prevent disrupting WCML passengers. Whilst I concede there are more people on the WCML than the GWR network, surely they are the ones getting the so called benefits from HS2, so why shouldn't they be the ones to make the sacrifices in the meantime?

I agree that the suggestion that it’s all fine because they have another option that’s an hour longer is ridiculous. Not to mention given how that went last time OOC works closed the GWML, with significant queues at Reading and trains leaving full and standing for a 1hr 30 journey, which is absolutely ridiculous. SWR has not even close to the capacity to handle all of GWR’s passengers from Reading. That then means OOC works are affecting users of SWR too, because all their trains are turning up full and standing all the way to Waterloo.

Although good points have been made about the benefits of HS2, they’ve failed to answer the question that started this, which was it doesn’t benefit the current users of the GWML who are affected by the works. Someone from Bristol, Cardiff or Penzance who would take XC, but may take HS2, isn’t as affected by these works because they aren’t travelling into London now. Meanwhile those of us who have suffered going on a decade of disruption now have half a decade more almost guaranteed. For most people living outside Reading that has been to bring the Elizabeth line, from which they have seen little benefit, at least from the bit that the disruption was for.

There was also disruption for electrification, and although that has brought benefits, for those out to Bristol and Oxford significant amounts of enabling works caused a lot of disruption, just for the electrification to never materialise.

Personally, living between Didcot and Reading when not at uni, all this disruption has brought a worse service. We lost direct trains to Oxford, and to many stop towards London, replaced by a semi fast service that it’s still quicker to change at Reading than take.


That’s sort of forgetting that there will be significantly reduced services a decent amount of weekends, increasingly more into next year with no late night Saturday and early morning Sunday service.

Thats reduced GWR services, delayed GWR services with congestion, heavily reduced Elizabeth Line services and no service to Acton Mainline a fair chunk of the time.

I travelled last week and thinks to congestion caused by OOC works my first train was 30 minutes late, which caused me to miss my connecting train, and as the next train was removed from the timetable for the works, I suffered a two hour delay. There was no other disruption than these works.

I genuinely sympathise. Increasingly, the Western is becoming the poor man of the UK network, I guess it doesn't help there are so many loud politicians in the North who are very effective at shouting until they get what they want. Fair play to Luke Pollard MP in Plymouth, taking a leaf out of the northern MPs books and banging his drum (and rightly so). If only some of the Tory MPs down here would be a little more vocal....

 

[swt_passenger]

a) it is protected.
b) there is the rather large North Pole depot in the way...

That is exactly what is happening, the complaints revolve around the small number of closures between phases when the tracks are slewed in different ways. (Similar to the London Bridge works phasing).
The initial phase sees relief line platform construction to the north of the current GWML tracks before the first track realignment through those platforms to allow platform construction further south in several phases.

HS2 were quoted in post #35 last year saying they’d actually build the 3 islands for P3-P8 before doing the first track slew. Might have been revised I suppose, it’s slightly different to your suggested stages in post #34 though:

The eight platforms will be constructed in a phased approach, with platforms three to eight initially built using precast concrete pieces brought into site and lifted into place. Then the main elements of the station roof will be built. These works are expected to be complete at the end of 2025. Network Rail will then divert the existing live railway through the newly constructed platforms over a Christmas possession period, which is expected to take place in 2026. After these works, Platforms one and two and the final section of the roof structure will be constructed with all these works expected to complete in 2028.

Nevertheless it seems strange for people to still be asking how the build will progress, it’s been covered in this thread a number of times.

 

[Agent_Squash]

That’s not what I understand. 3 reversing sidings, trains treat the platforms like they do Paddington. Having just two platforms would cause a significant choke point.

Still an enhancement over PAD. Terminating trains in the middle, through trains on the outside - a reliability improvement too.

 

[Benjwri]

Still an enhancement over PAD. Terminating trains in the middle, through trains on the outside - a reliability improvement too.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something here, but that is the exact arrangement at Paddington.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something here, but that is the exact arrangement at Paddington.

Paddington has two through platforms and three turn backs.

OOC will have 4 through platforms and three turn backs.

 

[Benjwri]

Paddington has two through platforms and three turn backs.

OOC will have 4 through platforms and three turn backs.

Ahhh okay yes I see what you are refering to, I assumed you meant the layout of the turnbacks. That is true yes.

 

[Horizon22]

Easier connections and a more reliable Elizabeth Line through the removal of autoreverse. That’s the benefit for GWML passengers.

Again, this is standard practice in most of Europe. It’s a mainline railway connection station.

Auto-reverse is pretty reliable & saves time by recovering late running Westbound terminators so not necessarily. You’d need 5 to platforms to make up for it, but there should be reversing sidings & more platforms anyway.

Well it's highly debatable that it's national need. But why should people from the south west suffer for something for which they derive zero benefit? The irony is one reason that HS2 was chosen over upgrading the WCML line, was in order to prevent disrupting WCML passengers. Whilst I concede there are more people on the WCML than the GWR network, surely they are the ones getting the so called benefits from HS2, so why shouldn't they be the ones to make the sacrifices in the meantime?

Because the GWML is the line of route Old Oak Common is on. It’s as simple as that. Why inconvenience WCML passengers unnecessarily?

You keep banging on about “zero benefit” and “unfairness” but ultimately infrastructure has to be built somewhere, it doesn’t magic itself into existence and there will be some benefit. It’s a national infrastructure project of some importance (albeit increasingly Southern) so things like this will occur.

 

[The Planner]

Well it's highly debatable that it's national need. But why should people from the south west suffer for something for which they derive zero benefit? The irony is one reason that HS2 was chosen over upgrading the WCML line, was in order to prevent disrupting WCML passengers. Whilst I concede there are more people on the WCML than the GWR network, surely they are the ones getting the so called benefits from HS2, so why shouldn't they be the ones to make the sacrifices in the meantime?

WCML has disruption and it still will. Plenty of half station blocks have taken place at Euston which reduces the train service, 9 day blocks of the Trent Valley which are worse than Euston blocks, and more for when Handsacre is built. So to say they arent disrupted is incorrect.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well it's highly debatable that it's national need. But why should people from the south west suffer for something for which they derive zero benefit? The irony is one reason that HS2 was chosen over upgrading the WCML line, was in order to prevent disrupting WCML passengers. Whilst I concede there are more people on the WCML than the GWR network, surely they are the ones getting the so called benefits from HS2, so why shouldn't they be the ones to make the sacrifices in the meantime?

I suppose you had this view about building the M1, with no apparent benefit to the southwest?

Rebuilding Euston and the adjacent property for HS2 started in 2017 with enabling powers, and WCML passengers have been regularly disrupted since then because of it (loss of platforms etc).
Not to mention repeated blocks at Bletchley for EWR construction, another national scheme which doesn't benefit the south west.
For a very long time, there has been virtually no bank holiday weekend service on the WCML, because of construction/resignalling or major maintenance work (rebuilding bridges etc).
I would say the GWR routes got off lightly over a long period, bar some critical periods during the Reading upgrade.

Presumably you don't want Oxford to have a new station because it too doesn't benefit the south west.
Wales is grumbling not only about the disruption over OOC, but with the fact that there are no HS2 "Barnett consequentials" for Cardiff Bay to spend.

The recently announced remedial plan for the GW route Paddington-Reading (nothing to do with HS2) is likely to have a greater impact than the OOC work.

 

[irish_rail]

I suppose you had this view about building the M1, with no apparent benefit to the southwest?

Rebuilding Euston and the adjacent property for HS2 started in 2017 with enabling powers, and WCML passengers have been regularly disrupted since then because of it (loss of platforms etc).
Not to mention repeated blocks at Bletchley for EWR construction, another national scheme which doesn't benefit the south west.
For a very long time, there has been virtually no bank holiday weekend service on the WCML, because of construction/resignalling or major maintenance work (rebuilding bridges etc).
I would say the GWR routes got off lightly over a long period, bar some critical periods during the Reading upgrade.

Presumably you don't want Oxford to have a new station because it too doesn't benefit the south west.
Wales is grumbling not only about the disruption over OOC, but with the fact that there are no HS2 "Barnett consequentials" for Cardiff Bay to spend.

The recently announced remedial plan for the GW route Paddington-Reading (nothing to do with HS2) is likely to have a greater impact than the OOC work.

You are clearly missing my point. I have no issue if other parts of the country get improvements and enhancements. Great. What I don't like is the south west having to suffer in order for these other parts of the country to benefit , when the south west gains nothing. Your example of the M1 is pointless, as building the M1 had no disbenefit to the Southwest. OOC on the other hand does.

Auto-reverse is pretty reliable & saves time by recovering late running Westbound terminators so not necessarily. You’d need 5 to platforms to make up for it, but there should be reversing sidings & more platforms anyway.



Because the GWML is the line of route Old Oak Common is on. It’s as simple as that. Why inconvenience WCML passengers unnecessarily?

You keep banging on about “zero benefit” and “unfairness” but ultimately infrastructure has to be built somewhere, it doesn’t magic itself into existence and there will be some benefit. It’s a national infrastructure project of some importance (albeit increasingly Southern) so things like this will occur.

As you say HS2 is all about the south east now. Another good reason to CAN the whole lot.

WCML has disruption and it still will. Plenty of half station blocks have taken place at Euston which reduces the train service, 9 day blocks of the Trent Valley which are worse than Euston blocks, and more for when Handsacre is built. So to say they arent disrupted is incorrect.

Well I should hope so. I just wonder will it all be worth it in the end....

The recently announced remedial plan for the GW route Paddington-Reading (nothing to do with HS2) is likely to have a greater impact than the OOC work.

I don't doubt it for a minute. But at least when that project is done GWR customers will have a far better more reliable resilient service. No pain no gain.

 

[stuu]

As you say HS2 is all about the south east now. Another good reason to CAN the whole lot.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?

 

[BrianW]

There are still central reversing sidings as well, just west of OOC between the up and down reliefs. I’m sure there‘s a track plan been posted before somewhere.

I’ve found it, post #107 last April shows the intended layout.

Thank you for this reference back to proposed GWML trackplan for OOC at #107, 25 April 2023- very useful ...

HS2 were quoted in post #35 last year saying they’d actually build the 3 islands for P3-P8 before doing the first track slew. Might have been revised I suppose, it’s slightly different to your suggested stages in post #34 though:



Nevertheless it seems strange for people to still be asking how the build will progress, it’s been covered in this thread a number of times.

.. and for this to posts #34 and 35 ... I plead an inability to 'keep up', a surfieit of 'better things to do' (my wife says!) and the stroke I had which hinders me.

I guess if the construction of OOC GWML station commences with the UP Relief platform and northward slew of those lines, it can then proceed in stages > Dn Relief > Up fast > Down Fast with minimal disruption if any. So, what's the fuss?

And North Pole depot stays, unaffected, in whatever incarnation for the future, and no (further?) encroachment on Common land.

One could think it had been planned with minimal disruption in mind- give or take the political ... (which is rather the point I was trying, not very well, to make- in response to the unexpected intervention at this time from Plymouth).

 

[HSTEd]

It is rather depressing that this project will take five years to complete.

I suppose trying to keep the line open at all rather stretches the schedule.

 

[Horizon22]

As you say HS2 is all about the south east now. Another good reason to CAN the whole lot.

But I didn’t say that…

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

DafT have also said they will be looking at the existing project to maximise savings so one option could be to drop the fast line platforms although when the conclusion of that exercise will be completed remains to be seen but we will have a six monthly update in May my give some clues.

 

[irish_rail]

DafT have also said they will be looking at the existing project to maximise savings so one option could be to drop the fast line platforms although when the conclusion of that exercise will be completed remains to be seen but we will have a six monthly update in May my give some clues.

Here's hoping. Maybe money saved on fast line GWR platforms could be put toward some useful infrastructure work that improves HS2 scope up north , say in the connection to Liverpool or Manchester.

 

[HSTEd]

Here's hoping. Maybe money saved on fast line GWR platforms could be put toward some useful infrastructure work that improves HS2 scope up north , say in the connection to Liverpool or Manchester.

Deleting the fast line platforms would get you a few hundred metres of HS2 route, if that.

In exchange you more or less permanently destroy any chance of OOC developing into the travel hub that it is envisaged as.

 

[Benjwri]

Deleting the fast line platforms would get you a few hundred metres of HS2 route, if that.

Deleting the fast lines, likely changing the station building significantly, maybe even moving the slow line platforms, and therefore pretty much starting again on the structural calculations, design etc, and having to prepare and submit either a new planning application or significant amendment, and then renegotiating contracts with builders and suppliers, likely no scraping back most of the money, will lose you a far sight more than you gain from not building the platforms.

 

[Topological]

Whisper it, but how much would terminating at Old Oak Common and then selling Paddington for development net?

Trains could continue to reversing sidings beyond the station itself for prepping etc, so 4 platforms could still handle it. Maybe that is what the Euston/Paddington late announcements aim to prove, especially as passengers could be in position on a platform for a train arriving from a reversing siding.

To me fast line platforms make perfect sense.

 

[irish_rail]

Whisper it, but how much would terminating at Old Oak Common and then selling Paddington for development net?

Haha brilliant.

 

[Benjwri]

Whisper it, but how much would terminating at Old Oak Common and then selling Paddington for development net

An awful, awful lot of angry businesses, residents, commuters, not just around Paddington itself, but also on the Bakerloo and Circle lines who had direct connections to Paddington. Not to mention the amount of public money 'lost' from infrastructure investments around the station, which were justified based on a benefit which has just ceased to exist.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

An awful, awful lot of angry businesses, residents, commuters, not just around Paddington itself, but also on the Bakerloo and Circle lines who had direct connections to Paddington. Not to mention the amount of public money 'lost' from infrastructure investments around the station, which were justified based on a benefit which has just ceased to exist.

Even DafT aren't that daft

 

[Benjwri]

Even DafT aren't that daft

Even if they were, the amount of developers that have build very expensive new builds in the area in recent years would tie such a move down in the courts for years, there would be a new government before they could even touch it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Trains could continue to reversing sidings beyond the station itself for prepping etc, so 4 platforms could still handle it.

No, they couldnt.

 

[brad465]

Are there any plans to try and reduce journey times further west to compensate for all the GWR services being slowed down by the OOC calls to come (e.g. line speed bottleneck removals and/or general increases)? I recall they were supposed to do this for Thanet Parkway's opening, where line speed increases were planned to compensate for the extra time calling there adds, though according to the latest Sectional Appendix this doesn't seem to have happened.