HS2 Old Oak Common

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfL say the extra 10 are sufficient for 18tph to OOC as well as some other improvements.
There are options for 13 more that would get the service level to 26/28tph to OOC from the core.

I think I read somewhere that only 3 units remain in the build option, 10 of the 13 being part of the new firm order.
Anything more than another 3 would need a competitive bid.

 

[Geogregor]

 

[HSTEd]

I think I read somewhere that only 3 units remain in the build option, 10 of the 13 being part of the new firm order.
Anything more than another 3 would need a competitive bid.

The competitive bid would likely be a formality however, since it would almost certainly include total spare parts and software compatibility with existing rolling stock.

Noone else is going to bid for it unless it is somehow an enormous order.

 

[E27007]

Those who said Labour spending plans were not costed might be about to be shown to be correct.

It's quite scary to see what they plan to cut (probably HS2 to Euston is not the worst of the set)

In the old days it was plausible they could not have planned accurately, but since the Office for Budget Responsibility, it is much harder to have a "missing £20bn".

The leading UK Civil Engineering company has announced that demand exceeds supply for civil engineering projects in the UK and USA , their order book is full.
Some of the construction projects to be cut by Labour may be for more than budgetary measures, too much work for the companies with the skills and resources to tackle them.

 

[Topological]

The leading UK Civil Engineering company has announced that demand exceeds supply for civil engineering projects in the UK and USA , their order book is full.
Some of the construction projects to be cut by Labour may be for more than budgetary measures, too much work for the companies with the skills and resources to tackle them.

Forgive me for not buying that.

YES there may be short term stickiness in training etc, but over the timescales of the projects we could still build. I do not see the same hesitation to build in Manchester residential (for example). The training for building skyscrapers is different than for building a railway, but the point that supply can be flexed stands.

Companies are very good at talking from their own perspectives.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Forgive me for not buying that.

YES there may be short term stickiness in training etc, but over the timescales of the projects we could still build. I do not see the same hesitation to build in Manchester residential (for example). The training for building skyscrapers is different than for building a railway, but the point that supply can be flexed stands.

Companies are very good at talking from their own perspectives.

There simply is not enough civil engineers in this country. As someone in the industry, recruitment is now very difficult with many organisations have positions open for many many months.

 

[Topological]

There simply is not enough civil engineers in this country. As someone in the industry, recruitment is now very difficult with many organisations have positions open for many many months.

If only there were things a government could do about that...

The problem with UK governments of both persuasions is that they are very good at explaining why they cannot do things, and couching those thoughts within very narrow parameters.

When other countries need specific professions they change visa rules, they adjust education, they look at retraining in their de-industialisation strategies. Here we do not touch visa rules because that is perenially misinterpreted on all sides, we do not touch education mostly on cost grounds, and we do not have a strategy for de-industrialisation in case it upsets the people whose jobs we are supposed to be fighting for.

Down here in South Wales we are about to see Port Talbot Steelworks close, with all the associated skilled (even if not qualified) workers. The strategy... Well see this BBC article today:

Steel job cuts: Port Talbot needs years of support - councillor

With Port Talbot's second blast furnace due to shut, townspeople voice their fears for the future.

www.bbc.co.uk

Analysis​

By Felicity Evans, BBC Wales money editor
Before the general election in July, when UK Labour was still in opposition, it was very critical of the then Conservative government’s approach to Tata’s plans for Port Talbot.
That Tory previous government had agreed to give the company £500m towards the building of a greener electric arc furnace.
And, along with Tata, it decided to create a £100m transition fund to help workers and the wider community cope with the fallout from the thousands of job losses that would result from the closure of the blast furnaces.
Labour promised a new approach and on taking power said it was in negotiations with the company and there was “a better deal available”.
Well, the clock is ticking: only one blast furnace remains operational at Port Talbot and it is still scheduled to close in September.
Sir Keir Starmer's government is starting to spend the transition fund announced by its predecessor, but right now its game plan doesn’t seem much different.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If only there were things a government could do about that...

The problem with UK governments of both persuasions is that they are very good at explaining why they cannot do things, and couching those thoughts within very narrow parameters.

When other countries need specific professions they change visa rules, they adjust education, they look at retraining in their de-industialisation strategies. Here we do not touch visa rules because that is perenially misinterpreted on all sides, we do not touch education mostly on cost grounds, and we do not have a strategy for de-industrialisation in case it upsets the people whose jobs we are supposed to be fighting for.

Down here in South Wales we are about to see Port Talbot Steelworks close, with all the associated skilled (even if not qualified) workers. The strategy... Well see this BBC article today:

Steel job cuts: Port Talbot needs years of support - councillor

With Port Talbot's second blast furnace due to shut, townspeople voice their fears for the future.

www.bbc.co.uk

Agreed, but I was just saying this is not some false information being put out by civil engineering companies it's a fact if the industry.

 

[Topological]

Agreed, but I was just saying this is not some false information being put out by civil engineering companies it's a fact if the industry.

The post i quoted said that the company's perspective was the real reason Labour were reducing commitments on construction. I am not questioning the company. I am saying that should not be a rationale for the government.

The government could, if it wanted, resolve the problems the company faces. The government does not want to.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The post i quoted said that the company's perspective was the real reason Labour were reducing commitments on construction. I am not questioning the company. I am saying that should not be a rationale for the government.

The government could, if it wanted, resolve the problems the company faces. The government does not want to.

Sorry didn't quite follow the thread back, my bad!

 

[Topological]

Sorry didn't quite follow the thread back, my bad!

To be fair, I think the whole thing has drifted a bit from the purpose (construction updates at OOC).

I am looking forward to seeing the station on the GWML start to materialise, there is not much to see from the train as it goes past when they are working on the "station in a hole".

 

[reddragon]

The leading UK Civil Engineering company has announced that demand exceeds supply for civil engineering projects in the UK and USA , their order book is full.
Some of the construction projects to be cut by Labour may be for more than budgetary measures, too much work for the companies with the skills and resources to tackle them.

I work in the industry and getting staff let alone contractors is a nightmare. They choose who they want to work for, like term contracts and big jobs. Took us 3 years to get a main contractor willing to do a bridge job.

The post i quoted said that the company's perspective was the real reason Labour were reducing commitments on construction. I am not questioning the company. I am saying that should not be a rationale for the government.

The government could, if it wanted, resolve the problems the company faces. The government does not want to.

Perfect rationale. Why pay double for a worse job?

 

[Topological]

I work in the industry and getting staff let alone contractors is a nightmare. They choose who they want to work for, like term contracts and big jobs. Took us 3 years to get a main contractor willing to do a bridge job.


Perfect rationale. Why pay double for a worse job?

You will need to explain that one. Where does the double come from? Why is there a worse job?

I get the shortage of supply argument, but the government has levers to change that (if it wants to).

Hopefully we will see a move to address the supply side on all fronts, otherwise we risk the country being forever in the debt of a limited number of large corporations.

 

[Class 170101]

I get the shortage of supply argument, but the government has levers to change that (if it wants to).

If you are referring to Labour supply. it will either take a while if home grown (skills) or be brought in from abroad but I'm not sure thats an answer that some of the UK population will accept right now.

 

[HSTEd]

Projects can, to some degree, be optimised to reduce consumption of labour at the cost of additional inputs of concrete and steel if necessary.

In any case, engineering effort can, if project management is not perfect, become a self fulfilling prophecy where requirements expand to fill the supply available.
It also doesn't take that long, on the scale of engineering projects to train additional engineers.

There are also a lot of engineering trained people working in non engineering fields that are potentially available.

 

[Topological]

If you are referring to Labour supply. it will either take a while if home grown (skills) or be brought in from abroad but I'm not sure thats an answer that some of the UK population will accept right now.

Yes, this is the purpose of points based immigration systems. They favour skills that are required.

I do agree that there are problems with some of the population accepting the benefits of immigration to the UK, but that is more a function of the failure to manage by successive governments. We only just got a points based system and still seem very poor at using it in the way Australia does (for example).

I doubt the demonstrable use of the system to gain more engineers would be any more (or less) troubling than the use of the system for health workers, carers etc.

This could quickly drift off topic, so the point of the post is really just to say that levers are available to governments.

 

[Snow1964]

Not sure if this is right place to post, but a Government coordinator job overseeing Old Oak Common (both HS2 and GWR) paying £76,000 has been advertised

As part of the Delivery Directorate leadership team, this role is accountable for sponsoring delivery of all civils construction between Birmingham and London; the construction and entry into service of Old Oak Common Station (spanning the HS2 station and the Great Western Main Line station); as well as supporting delivery of Old Oak West, a major commercial and housing development around the station being developed by the Mayor of London.

In addition to bringing experience of major project delivery, the post holder will need excellent communication skills, along with sound political judgement, and an ability to deploy these to build effective relationships, manage conflicting views and influence at the highest levels including with Ministers and senior leaders across HS2 Ltd. They will need to be able to develop a strong network within the Department, with HS2 Ltd and other delivery partners (Network Rail and the Old Oak and Park Royal Development Corporation) and other colleagues across Whitehall. Alongside this they will be a self-starter and a talented leader who can set the agenda, ensure project control and motivate and develop a diverse and inclusive team.

Deputy Director HS2 Main Works Construction and Old Oak Common Station

findajob.dwp.gov.uk

 

[NSEWonderer]

Something a little different today. With all of the up coming works in readiness for HS2 in the Old Oak Common area this leaves our valued customer GWR with a big issue. The main depot for their Hitachi fleet will be inaccessible owing to the line beyond Acton being closed. There are allsorts of options being explored and trialled. Today GBRf as the preferred supplier ran a test train to Didcot Railway Centre to prove concept I thought I would share a few pictures and one of three eras of GWR trains. #GBRf #GWR #Hitachirail #Didcotrailwaycentre

Probably mentioned somewhere else but looks like there is some trial testing going on to find suitable storage places for GWR stock ahead of the HS2 Blockade?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Trains from North Pole depot can reach the GW main line at Acton ML by running south via North Pole Jn and then reverse via West London Jn and Acton Wells Jn.
Some 80x ECS will do this and reverse at both Kensington Olympia and Willesden SW Sidings to reach Euston (visible on RTT).
Capacity may be limited of course, but North Pole depot will not be totally inaccessible during the OOC blockades.

 

[Horizon22]

Trains from North Pole depot can reach the GW main line at Acton ML by running south via North Pole Jn and then reverse via West London Jn and Acton Wells Jn.
Some 80x ECS will do this and reverse at both Kensington Olympia and Willesden SW Sidings to reach Euston (visible on RTT).
Capacity may be limited of course, but North Pole depot will not be totally inaccessible during the OOC blockades.

Unlike OOC for the Elizabeth line which will be.

 

[Snow1964]

New HS2 video

Explaining how the 350m tunnels from Victoria crossover box towards Old Oak station box are being built. They taper out at both ends to allow junctions.

Due to taper, not TBM, but sprayed concrete lining, one metre at a time, then will be second and for some third pass to enlarge them. Will then get waterproof lining and the inner lining the trains pass through.

 

[Snow1964]

Marr has been contracted for cranes to build Old Oak Common station. Two 330t capacity heavy lift luffing cranes and a 96t crane. Cranes expected early 2025

The contract was awarded by the Balfour Beatty Vinci Systra joint venture (BBVSJV). Marrhas previously delivered cranage solutions for numerous Sydney Metro stations and Brisbane’s Cross River Rail Station. Marr has previously worked with Balfour Beatty on the Hinkley Point C Project in the UK.

“Drawing on Marr’s experience in successfully delivering similar projects in Australia, we have demonstrated that there is an alternative approach to projects of this scale that is safer and more efficient. We are excited to introduce our technology, which has only recently become readily available in the UK, to this project” said Steve Ryder, general manager – international, Marr Contracting.

Working alongside BBVSJV’s engineering and construction team, Marr designed a three-crane solution which includes two 330-tonne capacity M2480D heavy lift luffing cranes, supported by a 96-tonne capacity M860DX.

“Key to the successes we have achieved for end-clients like Sydney Metro and Cross River Rail in Australia has been the willingness of project teams to engage us early in the planning stages. Similarly, BBVSJV’s innovative thinking about how cranage solutions can be procured and delivered is a potentially game-changing approach for this important infrastructure project,” added Marr’s managing director, Simon Marr.

Marr’s cranes are expected to be delivered to the site in early 2025.

Marr contracted for HS2 station superstructure

Australia-based Marr Contracting will deliver heavy lift crane services for the construction of the HS2 Old Oak Common station superstructure, in West London, UK.

www.heavyliftpfi.com

 

[Jonny]

The competitive bid would likely be a formality however, since it would almost certainly include total spare parts and software compatibility with existing rolling stock.

Noone else is going to bid for it unless it is somehow an enormous order.

And compatibility from a driver's standpoint so that existing traction knowledge covers the new train? It should not be too hard for the legal department to define traction knowledge and specify it as a compatibility requirement in the tender.

 

[Snow1964]

HS2 has issued a video of Old Oak Common progress update October 2024. Lots of new images of current status, and description of what happens over next few months

 

[Benjwri]

And compatibility from a driver's standpoint so that existing traction knowledge covers the new train? It should not be too hard for the legal department to define traction knowledge and specify it as a compatibility requirement in the tender.

Which would allow for pretty much no innovation, the cabs would have to be pretty much identical, and so would the trains.

Not to mention that would probably make the tender overly restrictive, as it’s very unlikely another manufacturer would be able to fulfil that criteria

 

[Snow1964]

Which would allow for pretty much no innovation, the cabs would have to be pretty much identical, and so would the trains.

Not to mention that would probably make the tender overly restrictive, as it’s very unlikely another manufacturer would be able to fulfil that criteria

Although it has been done in the past, many first generation DMUs were built by multiple manufacturers but effectively had common traction knowledge. Similarly Southern Railway had outside contractors build EMUs, and didn't really need type conversion course for each variant.

That is one of the advantages of big Framework agreements, can keep building standard designs for 10 or 15 years, so anyone can jump in without training on later batches, if know earlier version.

As for innovation, there really isn't much that can be done. A mode controller (been around since the JA class 73s in 1962), a signal system choice switch (Eurostar since 1994, if not earlier), a power lever, brake, reverser etc. maybe the automatic mode over time will be able to do bit more, but not like the other controls will be replaced with some new fangled idea like wobble your fingers joystick that is completely innovative and alien to current drivers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

HS2 has issued a video of Old Oak Common progress update October 2024. Lots of new images of current status, and description of what happens over next few months

Good progress and you have to wonder why we aren't ambitious enough to aim for trains this decade to Old Oak

 

[Benjwri]

Good progress and you have to wonder why we aren't ambitious enough to aim for trains this decade to Old Oak

There’s a decent chance Old Oak might be completed this side of 2030, although with the construction industry who knows. But it’s there are other bits of the line far further behind.

 

[Horizon22]

There’s a decent chance Old Oak might be completed this side of 2030, although with the construction industry who knows. But it’s there are other bits of the line far further behind.

I know blocks for the GWML are supposed to roll unto 2028 at the least but that does give a sensible buffer of 2 years.

 

[absolutelymilk]

There’s a decent chance Old Oak might be completed this side of 2030, although with the construction industry who knows. But it’s there are other bits of the line far further behind.

Interesting - do you know which bits are far further behind?