HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

[Bletchleyite]

Also, why is it that "the missing bit in the middle still needs to be upgraded to ETCS?". Classic Compatibles will be running on Conventional signalling on most of the Network Rail parts of their journey, wherever they run.

And all HS2 stock will be classic compatible. There is no longer a plan to order captive stock at present, and there would be little benefit of doing so. Those 400m trains are pretty big, so it'll be a long time before the only real reason to do so, double deck, will even nearly be required.

 

[HSTEd]

And all HS2 stock will be classic compatible. There is no longer a plan to order captive stock at present, and there would be little benefit of doing so. Those 400m trains are pretty big, so it'll be a long time before the only real reason to do so, double deck, will even nearly be required.

Unless demand uplift is even more dramatic than projected, or policy changes to drive up traffic numbers on HS2.

Both of which may happen

 

[The Planner]

Roads.org.uk disagrees

"In the 1960s, work started building a motorway from London to Oxford, bypassing the congested A40, and this part was complete by 1974. It was mainly dual two-lane and it returned traffic to the A40 Wheatley Bypass at the Oxford end for the final approach to the dreaming spires."

It was only in 1991 when the North-of-Oxford stretch opened that

"The existing motorway was also refurbished to match it, with a substantial length widened to four lanes at the London end, to help provide capacity for Birmingham traffic on the existing road to Oxford. However, the length of road under the roundabout at junction 4, Handy Cross, was never widened, and remains a two-lane bottleneck on an otherwise three and four lane road."

M40

The second motorway from London to Birmingham, calling in at Oxford on the way, is calmer and prettier than the alternative - but caused far more problems to build.

www.roads.org.uk

Its wrong then, @Bald Rick is correct, it was all opened as 3 lanes apart from J4 to 5. J3 to 1A was widened to 4 lanes later on around the mid 90s. J4-5 was 91-93.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless demand uplift is even more dramatic than projected, or policy changes to drive up traffic numbers on HS2.

Both of which may happen

And if they do it'll be time to order double deckers. But then you've got some nice 200m EMUs which can then be cascaded to other electrified routes. By the time any such thing was necessary, Pendolinos would be getting rather old, for example - they'll be well into their thirties by the time HS2 opens fully.

 

[CdBrux]

Starmer opens PMQs over whether Northern Crossrail High Speed line between Manchester to Leeds or HS2 Eastern legs are going to be built as promised by Boris. Wait till tomorrow he says its going to be a fantastic IRP Northern cities will get a commuter services as good as L&SE.

Nothing given away of course but good to see rail taking the front stage at PMQs.

Starmer already wins by setting an impossible objective: It's either high speed (which has virtually never been the idea) or Crossrail but hard to be both!

 

[BrianW]

Starmer already wins by setting an impossible objective: It's either high speed (which has virtually never been the idea) or Crossrail but hard to be both!

Parliamentlive.tv

Prime Minister's Questions BSL Version

www.parliamentlive.tv

12:02 - 12:05 re Rail in the NE, NW, Midlands ... Wait and see what is going to be announced tomorrow ...

 

[A0]

Parliamentlive.tv

Prime Minister's Questions BSL Version

www.parliamentlive.tv

12:02 - 12:05 re Rail in the NE, NW, Midlands ... Wait and see what is going to be announced tomorrow ...

The only thing you can guarantee is there will be no end of criticism of whatever the decision is from the usual armchair experts on these boards because it doesn't do what they want it to - and what their personal demands are far more important than anything else.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm including the Corbys in the MML so six an hour at St Pancras. I guess you could reasonably state they are no longer intercities but the point I am trying to make is that platform utilisation is far more intense at St Pancras 1-4 than at KX 0-8.

if you are counting Corby, then on the ECML you should count the Ely / Kings Lynn and Peterborough starters from KGX. Which means in the now deferred timetable, 12tph ‘long distance’ at Kings Cross, plus some outer suburban services.

Roads.org.uk disagrees

"In the 1960s, work started building a motorway from London to Oxford, bypassing the congested A40, and this part was complete by 1974. It was mainly dual two-lane and it returned traffic to the A40 Wheatley Bypass at the Oxford end for the final approach to the dreaming spires."

It was only in 1991 when the North-of-Oxford stretch opened that

"The existing motorway was also refurbished to match it, with a substantial length widened to four lanes at the London end, to help provide capacity for Birmingham traffic on the existing road to Oxford. However, the length of road under the roundabout at junction 4, Handy Cross, was never widened, and remains a two-lane bottleneck on an otherwise three and four lane road."

M40

The second motorway from London to Birmingham, calling in at Oxford on the way, is calmer and prettier than the alternative - but caused far more problems to build.

www.roads.org.uk

yep, and it’s wrong. Not for the first time!

 

[HSTEd]

Starmer already wins by setting an impossible objective: It's either high speed (which has virtually never been the idea) or Crossrail but hard to be both!

If by "Crossrail" he would mean a metro-like system, there is no physical limitation preventing such a thing being built.

Experience in Japan, even on only steel rail technology, indicates that average speeds above 100mph would be obtainable even with stops every 20 miles or so.

 

[alf]

all of the M40 was built as 3 lanes, except J4 High Wycombe to J5 Stokenchurch which was originally 2 lanes, widened to 3 in 1990/1

Wrong again.

Initially 2 lanes north of Stokechurch.
I drove it regularly. Dating my wife in Oxford.

 

[The Planner]

Wrong again.

Initially 2 lanes north of Stokechurch.
I drove it regularly. Dating my wife in Oxford.

It was never two lanes through the cutting, it was built as three lanes from the start.

 

[Ianno87]

Starmer already wins by setting an impossible objective: It's either high speed (which has virtually never been the idea) or Crossrail but hard to be both!

If by "Crossrail" he would mean a metro-like system, there is no physical limitation preventing such a thing being built.

Experience in Japan, even on only steel rail technology, indicates that average speeds above 100mph would be obtainable even with stops every 20 miles or so.

"Crossrail for the North" just irritates me. It's obsessing about "we want shiny infrastructure to point at like that London has", rather than thinking about what the outputs (capacity and journey times) you want, and then the infrastructure that delivers that.

 

[adrock1976]

if you are counting Corby, then on the ECML you should count the Ely / Kings Lynn and Peterborough starters from KGX. Which means in the now deferred timetable, 12tph ‘long distance’ at Kings Cross, plus some outer suburban services.

Regarding Kings Cross and if I have interpreted what I can see on the RTT website rightly, is the below the present day standard pattern departures?

LNER/ICWC xx00, xx03, xx06, xx30, xx33, plus xx36 for ECS to Bounds Green depot

GTR/Gt Northern xx12, xx42 Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn non stop Cambridge

Grand Central xx27, xx57 (not all hours)

Hull Trains xx48 (not all hours)

Lumo xx45 or whenever it can fit (not all hours)

Also, is the xx22 and xx52 left vacant in case the Cambridge - Brighton Thameslink needs to be split for engineering works or serious disruption?

 

[Roast Veg]

The final back bench question was interesting - was it party infighting and more Boris bluff, or is he trying to gear everybody up to be pleasantly surprised?

 

[Ianno87]

Regarding Kings Cross and if I have interpreted what I can see on the RTT website rightly, is the below the present day standard pattern departures?

LNER/ICWC xx00, xx03, xx06, xx30, xx33, plus xx36 for ECS to Bounds Green depot

GTR/Gt Northern xx12, xx42 Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn non stop Cambridge

Grand Central xx27, xx57 (not all hours)

Hull Trains xx48 (not all hours)

Lumo xx45 or whenever it can fit (not all hours)

Also, is the xx22 and xx52 left vacant in case the Cambridge - Brighton Thameslink needs to be split for engineering works or serious disruption?

Effectively you have 'holes' in the King's Cross departures at:
xx09/39 (which the Brighton-Cambridge drops into at Finsbury Park, before diving out of the way at Woolmer Green)
xx15/45 (which the King's Cross-Cambridge stopper drops into across Welwyn viaduct before diving out of the way at Woolmer Green)
xx24/54ish (which the Horsham-Peterborough Thameslink drops into at Finsbury Park, before diving out of the way at Woolmer Green)

 

[adrock1976]

Effectively you have 'holes' in the King's Cross departures at:
xx09/39 (which the Brighton-Cambridge drops into at Finsbury Park, before diving out of the way at Woolmer Green)
xx15/45 (which the King's Cross-Cambridge stopper drops into across Welwyn viaduct before diving out of the way at Woolmer Green)
xx24/54ish (which the Horsham-Peterborough Thameslink drops into at Finsbury Park, before diving out of the way at Woolmer Green)

Many thanks.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The final back bench question was interesting - was it party infighting and more Boris bluff, or is he trying to gear everybody up to be pleasantly surprised?

The way he operated over the sleaze debacle in turning turtle when he saw it would backfire on him I wouldn't be at all surprised that it was deliberately leaked out to get the sort of response we've seen from Northern politicians and the regional papers yesterday and hes told Shapps that its all included.

By the way my view is all the Tory questions are rigged and Boris knows what's going to be asked as he generally has a prepared answer for even the most esoteric questions so maybe we will be surprised in the morning.

 

[A0]

It was never two lanes through the cutting, it was built as three lanes from the start.

And this photo provides evidence of that https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki...tokenchurch_Cutting_shortly_after_opening.jpg

 

[BrianW]

The only thing you can guarantee is there will be no end of criticism of whatever the decision is from the usual armchair experts on these boards because it doesn't do what they want it to - and what their personal demands are far more important than anything else.

Congrats- 4500 messages.

 

[JKF]

It’s the expectations management thing as I mentioned earlier/elsewhere, which this government is known for and has infested politics for decades - let the papers make pessimistic predictions so there is some relief/celebration when the revelation isn’t quite as terrible as we were led to expect.

 

[miami]

The final back bench question was interesting - was it party infighting and more Boris bluff, or is he trying to gear everybody up to be pleasantly surprised?

Leak something bad, announce something not as bad so people are "pleasantly surprised"

Throw in a few reheated announcements and promises for the far future that don't need to be kept, and you're onto something.

A few weeks ago the Telegraph was saying the eastern branch would be entirely cancelled. Then the BBC had the "cancelled north of toton" leak. Probably end up with something like "decision delayed until after phase 1 opens", and some vague promises for funding for consultants to draw lines on maps around the north, but no danger of actual digging to be done.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding Toton Interchange appearing to no longer go ahead with East Midlands Parkway being the substitute, looking at the schematic diagram on the Wikipedia page (September 2020 - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HS2_vector_map.jpg) there would be 7 HS trains calling.

This shows:
2x Birmingham - Leeds with East Mids being the only intermediate calling point
1x Birmingham - Newcastle calling East Mids, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
2x London - Leeds calling Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange (1tph), East Mids, and Leeds
2x London - Sheffield/Leeds/York calling Old Oak Common, East Mids (where the train would uncouple/couple), then non stop to Sheffield and Leeds (1tph each), or non stop to York with the other portion calling Chesterfield and Sheffield (1tph)

Would this still be broadly similar, and would 1tph each from Birmingham - Nottingham and Derby be able to fit or would there have to be some slight tweaks to the service pattern?

 

[HSTEd]

Regarding Toton Interchange appearing to no longer go ahead with East Midlands Parkway being the substitute, looking at the schematic diagram on the Wikipedia page (September 2020 - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HS2_vector_map.jpg) there would be 7 HS trains calling.

This shows:
2x Birmingham - Leeds with East Mids being the only intermediate calling point
1x Birmingham - Newcastle calling East Mids, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
2x London - Leeds calling Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange (1tph), East Mids, and Leeds
2x London - Sheffield/Leeds/York calling Old Oak Common, East Mids (where the train would uncouple/couple), then non stop to Sheffield and Leeds (1tph each), or non stop to York with the other portion calling Chesterfield and Sheffield (1tph)

Would this still be broadly similar, and would 1tph each from Birmingham - Nottingham and Derby be able to fit or would there have to be some slight tweaks to the service pattern?

I'd expect the London-Leeds trains to be jettisoned given that they are unlikely to be significantly faster than the other two routes available to Leeds in a post HS2 world.
And I don't think there is any chance that HS2 is competitive to London-York or points north via Sheffield!

 

[21C101]

Bearing in mind that HS2 trains are "classic compatible" and that people rightly have an aversion to changing trains with luggage, families etc we might still see HS2 trains from Euston running directly to Leeds via the HS2 Phase 1 and then this "quite high" speed link (200kph?) rump to E Midlands and then decelerating once again to 150kph all the way from E Midlands to SHeffield and speeding up again north of Sheffield to "Quite high" speed again onward to Leeds. And all in a train built to run at 360kph+ all the way. It makes no sense as even the missing bit in the middle still needs to be upgraded for ETCS etc. and all the new trains still have to be regression tested on the classic lines anyway. I feel sorry for Sheffield - short changed for years and now short changed yet again.

I suspect they will not call at Sheffield and go via an upgraded Old Road to a South Yorkshire Parkway Station, formerly known as Rotherham Masborough.

With other trains coming off HS2 at Trent and calling at Derby, Chestefield, then terminating at Sheffield.

Also, why is it that "the missing bit in the middle still needs to be upgraded to ETCS?". Classic Compatibles will be running on Conventional signalling on most of the Network Rail parts of their journey, wherever they run.

I would imagine if you are doing a major upgrade of the Erewash valley linespeed, reinstating the 4th Track etc it will involve resignalling so you might as well install ETCS. But the principle of your point stands.

Its wrong then, @Bald Rick is correct, it was all opened as 3 lanes apart from J4 to 5. J3 to 1A was widened to 4 lanes later on around the mid 90s. J4-5 was 91-93.

My recollections agree with Baldricks but I would be loath to say Chris's website is wrong. He is thorough in his research.

 

[Ianno87]

The only thing you can guarantee is there will be no end of criticism of whatever the decision is from the usual armchair experts on these boards because it doesn't do what they want it to - and what their personal demands are far more important than anything else.

And lots of folk (here and on the Twittersphere) who don't understand the difference between "evidence and output-led, practically deliverable and affordable long term strategy for rail and economic growth" and "Hornby shopping list for everything you've ever thought of"

I suspect they will not call at Sheffield and go via an upgraded Old Road to a South Yorkshire Parkway Station, formerly known as Rotherham Masborough.

With other trains coming off HS2 at Trent and calling at Derby, Chestefield, then terminating at Sheffield.

Grant you, that wouldn't be a bad strategy at all.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wrong again.

Initially 2 lanes north of Stokechurch.
I drove it regularly. Dating my wife in Oxford.

your memory fails you then. Stokenchurch to the end of the motorway at J7 (nearly 8) was three lanes from opening, with concrete paving. I was on it within a week of its opening. It was 2 Lane form Handy Cross to Stokenchurch.

And this photo provides evidence of that https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki...tokenchurch_Cutting_shortly_after_opening.jpg

thank you!

My recollections agree with Baldricks but I would be loath to say Chris's website is wrong. He is thorough in his research.

Indeed he is thorough, and I was surprised to see the wording when I looked it up.

 

[The Planner]

My recollections agree with Baldricks but I would be loath to say Chris's website is wrong. He is thorough in his research.

Don't disagree, he has been on SABRE long enough, but its still incorrect.

 

[ashkeba]

It's easy to forget before the advent of the M40, between Oxford and Birmingham meant using what was the A423 and A41 - nowadays the A4260 and B4100 which took you through Banbury and Warwick.

Why not the A34? Then you only jammed in Stratford, not two places.

But yes, HS2 could be as big a leap forwards for Sheggield and Leeds-Birmingham but it sounds like it will not be.

 

[21C101]

Grant you, that wouldn't be a bad strategy at all.

Thanks, of course to make it a viable you need to build the Clayton to Leeds stretch rather than try and shoehorn it through Wakefield.

Reports two weeks ago said Clayton to Leeds was still happening, recent leaks said its not, I suspect and hope that the latter is expectation management and that Clayton to Leeds will go ahead tomorrow.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why not the A34? Then you only jammed in Stratford, not two places.

it was always quicker via Banbury, in my experience.