HS3: Glasgow to Edinburgh?

[michael769]

Plans for a high-speed rail link between Glasgow and Edinburgh, cutting journey times to less than 30 minutes, are being taken forward by ministers.

The Scottish government aims to deliver the scheme by 2024 - at least 10 years before any high-speed link from England may be extended north of the border.

If successful, it would see 140mph trains linking Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Talks will now take place between transport officials, the rail industry and potential partners in both cities.

Plans have already been announced at Westminster to have the high-speed project, known as HS2, running between England's major cities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20296195

No doubt it will go the same way as the full electrification or EARL/GARL, but you cannot fault them for having aspirations.

 

[HSTEd]

Only 140mph

Seems a rather large waste of a high speed alignment.

At 200mph you could cut end to end journey time down to something like 19 minutes.....

 

[Roverman]

Is this a priority? Theres already several lines between Glasgow and Edinburgh, as well as a fairly good motorway !

 

[HSTEd]

Is this a priority? Theres already several lines between Glasgow and Edinburgh, as well as a fairly good motorway !

Well if you went for Cl395 style trains you could potentially extend, for example, the trains from Ayr to North Berwick.
Overall it could cause Edinburgh and Glasgow to merge into one conurbation, atleast economically and culturally.

Glasburgh or Edingow anyone?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes there are very good existing links BUT, these links have intermediate stations, having a dedicated high speed line between the two will free up capcity on those other lines to improve local services further. While also increasing rail share of the market.

It almost forms the same argument as HS2 freeing up capcity on WCML ECML and MML.

 

[michael769]

I struggle to see the economic benefits of going from 35 mins under EGIP to 29 (I am guessing as they don't say how much under 30 that it is not very much). Its not like there is effective competition from air on this route. This smells like another vanity project like the trams of parliament building.

Why not spend the money bringing forwards the electrification plans they had to cut back on?

 

[HSTEd]

I struggle to see the economic benefits of going from 35 mins under EGIP to 29 (I am guessing as they don't say how much under 30 that it is not very much). Its not like there is effective competition from air on this route. This smells like another vanity project like the trams of parliament building.

Why not spend the money bringing forwards the electrification plans they had to cut back on?

30 minutes sounds long even for a 140mph alignment, atleast if we expect stock liek Cl395s, which certainly makes the most sense.
It is only ~70km, I would expect rather less, probably aroudn the 25m mark if there are no intermediate stops, although like I said, the objective should be 320kph, that way fast accelerating shinkansen trainsets could do it in under 20m.

 

[The Ham]

Only 140mph

Although technically a high speed line; probably all it will do is allow the WCML or ECML trains (which will be capable of running at those speeds by then) to run a bit faster.

Unless it is built with the capability of running faster than 140mph and to allow European trains to run on it then it should just be an intercity line rather than a High Speed line. As any High Speed line and station should be built to enable the largest trains which are in use on HS1 or are proposed of HS2 to run over them.

 

[michael769]

I would expect rather less, probably aroudn the 25m mark if there are no intermediate stops,

Even 25 vs 35 is not really very much. 35 mins will still beat a car hands down city centre to city centre. IMO the benefits are questionable over such a short distance.

20 mins or even better 15 mins might make a difference psychologically and pull in punters on that basis but I am guessing on such a short route you would need pretty fierce acceleration and spectacularly good braking to achieve such a target?

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably this was be on a new alignment? Because what Glasgow-Edinburgh REALLY needs is a fifth direct service route...

 

[chris89]

Seems a bit pointless to me at least.

As others have said it already takes about 35mins to get between the two cities, with the other ways about a hr or bit more.

Actually doing GARL or the Edinburgh Airport link or electrifying the E&G would be more benifical.

Chris

 

[HSTEd]

20 mins or even better 15 mins might make a difference psychologically and pull in punters on that basis but I am guessing on such a short route you would need pretty fierce acceleration and spectacularly good braking to achieve such a target?

By European standards yes, the acceleration would be rather impressive.

But in Japan they have trains do this all day every day, its what happens when you have a high speed line with 30km stop frequencies and a wide variety of stopping patterns.

One interesting effect of such a route though is it rather boosts the case for the via Leeds and Newcastle HS-North alignment.

Since all you have to do it get to Edinburgh it reduces the amount of track required for said alignment still further.

 

[mr_jrt]

I struggle to see the economic benefits of going from 35 mins under EGIP to 29 (I am guessing as they don't say how much under 30 that it is not very much). Its not like there is effective competition from air on this route. This smells like another vanity project like the trams of parliament building.

Why not spend the money bringing forwards the electrification plans they had to cut back on?

...from what I've read elsewhere, this is because they are trying to fund it from the strategic UK national transport budget, not the normal devolved Scottish one, so for them it would be additional funding. Given the SNP's desire for independence it strikes me as somewhat of a cheeky cash grab given construction would be unlikely to start by independence, much less being operational!

 

[tbtc]

I struggle to see the economic benefits of going from 35 mins under EGIP to 29 (I am guessing as they don't say how much under 30 that it is not very much). Its not like there is effective competition from air on this route. This smells like another vanity project like the trams of parliament building.

Why not spend the money bringing forwards the electrification plans they had to cut back on?

Even 25 vs 35 is not really very much. 35 mins will still beat a car hands down city centre to city centre. IMO the benefits are questionable over such a short distance.

20 mins or even better 15 mins might make a difference psychologically and pull in punters on that basis but I am guessing on such a short route you would need pretty fierce acceleration and spectacularly good braking to achieve such a target?

...from what I've read elsewhere, this is because they are trying to fund it from the strategic UK national transport budget, not the normal devolved Scottish one, so for them it would be additional funding. Given the SNP's desire for independence it strikes me as somewhat of a cheeky cash grab given construction would be unlikely to start by independence, much less being operational!

Agreed on all points - a bit of political vanity being dressed up as something for Westminster to fund (rather than coming out of a Scottish budget which cannot afford to electrify to Stirling etc any time soon).

This is the kind of posturing we can expect plenty of before the vote in 2014 I guess.

HS2 from London to Birmingham makes sense because it's not just about the two cities (it can be used for Manchester/ Leeds - London), but a "high speed" line just from Edinburgh to Glasgow would be a waste of time.

 

[harz99]

Well if you went for Cl395 style trains you could potentially extend, for example, the trains from Ayr to North Berwick.
Overall it could cause Edinburgh and Glasgow to merge into one conurbation, atleast economically and culturally.

Glasburgh or Edingow anyone?

Or you could build GARL and EARL and have the high speed service running between the two and linking the two Cities, thus benefitting large numbers of people rather than the select few who need to save an extra 10-15 minutes on their daily commute.

 

[Eagle]

Is this a priority? Theres already several lines between Glasgow and Edinburgh, as well as a fairly good motorway !

A motorway with a gap in it.

 

[HSTEd]

HS2 from London to Birmingham makes sense because it's not just about the two cities (it can be used for Manchester/ Leeds - London), but a "high speed" line just from Edinburgh to Glasgow would be a waste of time.

A high speed rail line in this corridor can be used for London services to Glasgow and potentially Inverness, by CrossCountry services galore and the aforementioned local shuttles.

If you cross Airdrie-Bathgate, or indeed any of the other routes, at some point on the alignment you could put in junctions to break the service in two, with some trains running fast on each half of the HSL and running along the existing line on the other half.

It is all part of the network we need, this would reduce the gap neccesary to complete the north-south High Speed network to Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

 

[route:oxford]

Unless i'm very much mistaken, 140mph *trains* have been shuttling back and forth between glasgow central and edinburgh for over a decade. The fact that they didn't achieve that speed between the two cities is a mere technicality.

Also, I was rather shocked to read the SNP refer to it as 'high speed 2' when it is clearly high speed one in scotland.

 

[Eagle]

Unless i'm very much mistaken, 140mph *trains* have been shuttling back and forth between glasgow central and edinburgh for over a decade. The fact that they didn't achieve that speed between the two cities is a mere technicality.

Which trains are these?

 

[ainsworth74]

Which trains are these?

91+Mk4s and I suppose 390s but they don't run directly between the two so don't properly count.

 

[Eagle]

91+Mk4s and I suppose 390s but they don't run directly between the two so don't properly count.

Well, that's only a daily service (91) then. Hardly a shuttle. :P

 

[ainsworth74]

Well, that's only a daily service (91) then.

Used be quite a few more before Eureka however

 

[Eagle]

Used be quite a few more before Eureka however

Pfft, that's ancient history.

 

[tbtc]

A high speed rail line in this corridor can be used for London services to Glasgow and potentially Inverness, by CrossCountry services galore and the aforementioned local shuttles

How are you going to use an Edinburgh - Glasgow High Speed line to get to Inverness? Or for any London services?

This is a complete waste of time (unless linked to a bigger network)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or you could build GARL and EARL and have the high speed service running between the two and linking the two Cities, thus benefitting large numbers of people rather than the select few who need to save an extra 10-15 minutes on their daily commute.

Although the numbers using the Airport links are going to be a "select few" compared to the number who'd use improved links from Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Fife/ Stirlingshire/ Ayrshire etc.

Plus if you build the EARL you'll end up with the trams running even emptier!

 

[D365]

A motorway with a gap in it.

Thought that was being fixed?

As people have said, the cancelled projects should be finished before anything new is done. Isn't Carstairs alright for now?

 

[Liam]

Thought that was being fixed?

Even when they fill the gap, the M8 still needs a third lane from Baillieston to Newbridge. At peak time it can take over 2 hours from City Centre to City Centre. If there is a big football match or other event on in Glasgow on a weekday night takes even longer.

 

[Wath Yard]

It is all part of the network we need, this would reduce the gap neccesary to complete the north-south High Speed network to Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

Yeah, right. :roll: Some fantasy high speed rail line is just what is needed in order to build another fantasy high speed rail line through 200 miles of nothing.

 

[dcsprior]

Does anyone know what the proposed route would be?

I could see the benefit of a high-speed line roughly following the route of the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Carstairs line. This would mean that:

• the "rest of" HS2 (i.e. the bit north of Birmingham) could be started from the north instead of/as well as from the south
• we get a high-speed Edinburgh-Glasgow link in the meantime, bringing you in at Central which is currently the worse-served station meaning people connecting in Glasgow often have to cross the city on foot/bus/subway
• the existing Edinburgh-Glasgow via Carstairs line could have more commuter services, perhaps even branded/priced like the SPT Subway or Lothian Tram instead of like normal Scotrail trains

But there may be many logistical reasons why this route wouldn't work

 

[jopsuk]

At least on the latest proposal it does seem to be something that could potentially link to an anglo-scottish HS line. Previous iterations of this idea have included a 400mph maglev

 

[Eagle]

Thought that was being fixed?

It is, within the next few years.

Of course it's still possible to travel from Edinburgh to Glasgow using only motorway (M8, M9, M876, M80, M8 again), but that's not the quickest way. Even if it does closely parallel the E&G railway line.