HST Fast Running

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

A retired Old Oak Common driver who I know as a friend tells me that when the HST's were introduced in 1976 they were often run at speeds pushing 140 mph. I'm interested to know whether anyone can confirm this and if so how did they get away with it!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it's cropped up before, and they would have got away with it before speed limiters and OTMR (On Train Monitoring Recorder) devices were installed.

There were indeed HST's doing 135mph on the Great western when new and several drivers back then had an unofficial (obviously) 140mph club with them. Rare they did that but 135mph was done many a time in the 80's and early 90's.

Apparently when they were first introduced on The Great Western (with only 7 coaches don't forget) the drivers had a 140mph club for those who'd managed to get to this speed.....

There was some reports (according to the railway magazine) of HSTs speeding on the Western Region, one or two drivers reportedly joining the 140mph club.

There was a "140 Club" on the GWML in the days before OTMR Blackboxes.

Even in the 1980s, there was supposed to be a '140 Club' for some HST drivers, although I do not know much about that.

Yes there used to be an 140 club.

Pre black boxes some drivers tried to do Padd to Reading in less than 20 minutes!

These quotes are from numerous threads, but there was also a thread discussing this topic specifically: HST passing Slough at 138mph

 

[notadriver]

Yes plenty of logs are available and speeding was common with most trains during the pre OTMR era.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Many thanks for this. I understand why speeds are nowadays restricted but it seems a shame that the drivers of Pendolinos are not allowed to push their trains harder when making up time.

 

[causton]

Many thanks for this. I understand why speeds are nowadays restricted but it seems a shame that the drivers of Pendolinos are not allowed to push their trains harder when making up time.

I think the reasoning is that if it is safe to go at that speed, why not go at it all the time and save people more time and potentially crew/train costs etc!

And if it's not safe to go at that speed... well don't do it at all then!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think the reasoning is that if it is safe to go at that speed, why not go at it all the time and save people more time and potentially crew/train costs etc!

And if it's not safe to go at that speed... well don't do it at all then!

Well exactly! But there are clearly things in place to prevent drivers from going over 128 mph even though they know the route better than anyone else. If a driver thinks a certain section of the WCML is fit for 135 mph when making up time why shouldn't we trust his judgement?

 

[Murph]

What about the IC225s? Was there a similar 155/160/whatever (official record for them is a bit over 160mph) "club" for them as well? Or was their introduction after things had become a bit more watched/regulated?

 

[yorkie]

What about the IC225s? Was there a similar 155/160/whatever (official record for them is a bit over 160mph) "club" for them as well? Or was their introduction after things had become a bit more watched/regulated?

After, and you set a target speed on a 91, so the old excuses wouldn't wash (must-see documentary)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well exactly! But there are clearly things in place to prevent drivers from going over 128 mph even though they know the route better than anyone else. If a driver thinks a certain section of the WCML is fit for 135 mph when making up time why shouldn't we trust his judgement?

We've had threads about that which go into detail (if our own search isn't producing useful results, you can find them by doing a Google search specifying site:www.railforums.co.uk) but basically the track may well be fine for higher speeds but they are not permitted to go faster because 125mph is considered the maximum safe speed for lineside signals.

Edit: I've found my reply from last time this cropped up, with some links...

I think you may find the answers on this forum:

• 135mph WCML
• WCML Inside Knowledge Required If Possible

(more results...)

Trains have to be tested to something like 10% above their top speed, and in normal service no Pendolino will be reaching 135mph - I believe they may well be limited, and these days it's all logged by OTMR etc...

 

[scotsman]

AFAIK, on Class 91s you can set a target speed, but there's nothing for the target speed to be set higher!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Many thanks for this. I understand why speeds are nowadays restricted but it seems a shame that the drivers of Pendolinos are not allowed to push their trains harder when making up time.

They can of sorts, there is a "boost" mode in a Pendolino (I'm sure Virgin have a specific terminology for it, perhaps a Virgin driver can shed some light) which can be used when a Pendolino is late as far as I am aware. I believe it just further increases acceleration but it does utilise some of the surplus power a Pendolino has.

 

[Alan1310]

A class 91 can be driven without using the speed selector just like any other electric loco just leave the needle below 5 mph and pull the power controller and away you go

 

[notadriver]

A class 91 can be driven without using the speed selector just like any other electric loco just leave the needle below 5 mph and pull the power controller and away you go

Cool - do you drive them ?

 

[BestWestern]

Just to go back to the Western HST's, another recent development is the DAS - Driver Advisory System. This is (yet another) screen in the cab which essentially tells the Driver when he should be braking and how he ought to be progressing in order to get to the next set point at the correct time. So even less excuse for speeding now!

 

[notadriver]

That system is completely advisory and drivers can't be disciplined for not adhering to it. The driver is still in overall charge of their train.

 

[Eagle]

That system is completely advisory and drivers can't be disciplined for not adhering to it. The driver is still in overall charge of their train.

If it was mandatory, then I'm sure someone would make a case for eliminating the mushy organic bit in the middle and have the warning systems drive the train themselves.

Obviously I wouldn't be the one saying that, but someone would.

 

[The Planner]

Isnt it very vague though and uses locations a fair distance apart ?

 

[starrymarkb]

Doesn't ETCS (and TVM430) impose target speeds with mandatory braking curves?

 

[notadriver]

Surely the system only intervenes if the train is going faster than it should be or does the driver have to drive at the target speed and brake only when the computer says so?

 

[BestWestern]

That system is completely advisory and drivers can't be disciplined for not adhering to it. The driver is still in overall charge of their train.

I don't think anybody suggested otherwise? My comment was merely that there is now yet another reason a Driver has little excuse to be going substantially quicker than he should be!