I've searched the forum and cannot find an answer to this question. What is the total passenger capacity of an HST set? I know there are both 7+2 and 8+2 sets, and also that different operators have different configurations. Any answers would be appreciated. Also, what was their capacity in the Intercity 125 days?
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
HST trainset capacities
- Thread starter Mercutio
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
There are also 2+9 sets on the ECML.
sprinterguy
Established Member
These are my best estimates for the HST passenger capacities:
East Coast HST (2+9): 431 standard class, 113 first class.
East Midlands HST (2+8): 357 standard class, 112 first class.
FGW long distance HST (2+8); 375 standard class, 112 or 118 first class.*
FGW high density HST (2+8): 461 standard class, 96 first class.**
Crosscountry HST (2+7): 389 standard class, 70 first class.
Grand Central HST (2+5): 221 standard class, 48 first class.***
* First class capacity dependent on buffet type used.
** These sets were previously in 2+7 formation, but have recently had an additional standard class carriage added, converted from buffet vehicles. I am not sure of the seating capacity of these new carriages, but I presume that they are similar to the existing high density vehicles.
*** Grand Central also operate 2+6 HST formations, but these vary in formation and often use declassified first class carriages as standard class accomodation.
As built, Intercity 125 first class carriages seated 48 passengers and the standard class carriages seated 72. Following the first Intercity refurbishment started in 1984, the capacity of the standard class vehicles was increased to 76 through the addition of additional airline style seating.
The first batch of HSTs, for the GWML, were delivered in 2+7 formation with two first class vehicles (TF), three standard class vehicles (TS), a TRUK and TRSB, as prior to introduction of the trains it was felt that separate catering facilities would be necessary for first and standard class. The TRUKs seated 24 passengers and the TRSBs seated 35. TRUBs were introduced later on in the build, that seated 17 following the 1983/4 refurbishment and became TRFBs.
However the requirement for two catering vehicles was soon dropped and by the time of the first refurbishment, by which time the TGS vehicles, seating 65, had been introduced, the formations had settled down to be as follows:
Crosscountry (2+7): TF + TRSB + TS + TS +TS +TS + TGS (404 standard class, 48 first class)
Western Region (2+7): TF + TF + TRFB + TS + TS +TS +TGS (293 standard class, 113 first class
Eastern Region (2+8): TF + TF + TRFB + TS + TS + TS + TS +TGS (369 standard class, 113 first class)
The Western Region sets were lengthened to 2+8 formation during BR days, following the electrification of the ECML, bringing them up to the same passenger capacity as the Eastern Region sets.
East Coast HST (2+9): 431 standard class, 113 first class.
East Midlands HST (2+8): 357 standard class, 112 first class.
FGW long distance HST (2+8); 375 standard class, 112 or 118 first class.*
FGW high density HST (2+8): 461 standard class, 96 first class.**
Crosscountry HST (2+7): 389 standard class, 70 first class.
Grand Central HST (2+5): 221 standard class, 48 first class.***
* First class capacity dependent on buffet type used.
** These sets were previously in 2+7 formation, but have recently had an additional standard class carriage added, converted from buffet vehicles. I am not sure of the seating capacity of these new carriages, but I presume that they are similar to the existing high density vehicles.
*** Grand Central also operate 2+6 HST formations, but these vary in formation and often use declassified first class carriages as standard class accomodation.
As built, Intercity 125 first class carriages seated 48 passengers and the standard class carriages seated 72. Following the first Intercity refurbishment started in 1984, the capacity of the standard class vehicles was increased to 76 through the addition of additional airline style seating.
The first batch of HSTs, for the GWML, were delivered in 2+7 formation with two first class vehicles (TF), three standard class vehicles (TS), a TRUK and TRSB, as prior to introduction of the trains it was felt that separate catering facilities would be necessary for first and standard class. The TRUKs seated 24 passengers and the TRSBs seated 35. TRUBs were introduced later on in the build, that seated 17 following the 1983/4 refurbishment and became TRFBs.
However the requirement for two catering vehicles was soon dropped and by the time of the first refurbishment, by which time the TGS vehicles, seating 65, had been introduced, the formations had settled down to be as follows:
Crosscountry (2+7): TF + TRSB + TS + TS +TS +TS + TGS (404 standard class, 48 first class)
Western Region (2+7): TF + TF + TRFB + TS + TS +TS +TGS (293 standard class, 113 first class
Eastern Region (2+8): TF + TF + TRFB + TS + TS + TS + TS +TGS (369 standard class, 113 first class)
The Western Region sets were lengthened to 2+8 formation during BR days, following the electrification of the ECML, bringing them up to the same passenger capacity as the Eastern Region sets.
Last edited:
If there were 83 first class seats then surely the TRSB was in fact a TRFB? Or was the TF very squished
I attempted to get some of these answers as part of this thread - could be of help
sprinterguy
Established Member
That's a good point: I've added the capacity of the TRSB to the first class total, not standard class! The first class total should be 48.If there were 83 first class seats then surely the TRSB was in fact a TRFB? Or was the TF very squished
Last edited:
As Crosscountry wasn't a BR region in its own right, were the sets officialy allocated to a region or was it shared pool between the different regions?
sprinterguy
Established Member
Eighteen HST sets were officially delivered to Crosscountry, for the North East to South West corridor. An order for a further eighteen sets for Glasgow, Manchester and Liverpool to the South Coast was proposed but not proceeded with. As far as I can tell, the allocation of the Crosscountry sets was split originally between Leeds Neville Hill and Plymouth Laira.
Not quite sure how the trains would have been delivered to anything called Crosscountry back then as it was not a separate region and the trains were delivered before sectorization. I'm not saying that a dedicated Cross Country pool didn't exist but wouldn't the operation of this have been the shared responsibility of the different regions rather than a separate Crosscountry "region" existing?
Last edited:
sprinterguy
Established Member
The British Railway Board set up an inter-regional team to grow business on the North East to South West route and other inter-regional traffic focused on a central hub at Birmingham New Street in 1972. This gave rise to a Cross Country network in the mid seventies, which had expanded to include services from the North West to Poole, Bournemouth and Brighton, the unforeseen passenger growth on these routes brought about by the work of this inter-regional team in improving connections and building the network leading to a solid business proposal for HST sets. Maintenance of the sets was shared between the Scottish, Eastern and Western regions though.
Would have thought they would also be crewed by staff from different regions.
Would that make these the only HSTs to have TRSBs? In fact would these be the only TRSBs built or were there some others kicking around?
sprinterguy
Established Member
There were far more TRSBs originally built. There were over thirty, originally numbered in the 400xx number series. Those that remained as TRSBs following the first BR refurbishment (Crosscountry vehicles) were renumbered in the 404xx number series, while a number were also converted to TRBs with first class seats and renumbered in the 402xx series, primarily for use on the Western region.
The other initial type of catering vehicle as originally introduced was the TRUK, which was fitted with first class (but declassified) seats and larger kitchens than the TRSBs, and were numbered in the 405xx series. Only twenty TRUKs were built, and the majority became spare and were converted into the first batch of loco hauled RFMs following the early decision to drop the need to equip each HST set with a certaing vehicle for each class.
TRUBs were also introduced from 1978 after the requirement for two catering vehicles in each set was dropped, and were numbered in the 403xx series, and formed the largest build of HST vehicles, totalling 58 carriages. They were renumbered in the 407xx series when they were reclassified as TRFBs in the early eighties and formed the mainstay of the ECML, GWML and Midland Mainline fleets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I mentioned it briefly in the third post - The TRUKs, with declassified first class seating (I've counted it towards the first class total), as built seated 24 and the TRSBs with standard class seating seated 35. Following the BR refurbishment of 1983/4 the TRFBs (As the newer TRUBs became) seated 17 in first class seating while the TRSBs retained the same capacity.
Last edited:
I see. So a typical 2+8 InterCity set would have had just one of these buffet vehicles, right?
- 5x standard class with seating for 72 passengers each (76 after 1984).
- 2x first class carriages with 48 seats each.
- A buffet car - either a TRUK, TRSB, or TRFB - with 24, 35, or 17 seats respectively.
- 5x standard class with seating for 72 passengers each (76 after 1984).
- 2x first class carriages with 48 seats each.
- A buffet car - either a TRUK, TRSB, or TRFB - with 24, 35, or 17 seats respectively.
sprinterguy
Established Member
Yep, that is correct. But it took only a few years from the introduction of the trains until, but for the odd exception, the only choice in catering vehicles was between TRSBs and TRFBs, as the TRUKs were redeployed elsewhere.
And between 1980 and 1982 one TS vehicle was replaced by a TGS (Seating 65).
Thanks for that. So, 2+8 HST trainsets carry between 469 and 557 passengers depending on the operator's configuration, and the 2+9 sets operated by East Coast carry 544.
That compares with...
- 538 on the Class 91s/InterCity 225 trainsets
- 439 on the 9-car Virgin Pendolinos
- 591 on the 11-car Virgin Pendolinos
- 649 on the electric InterCity Express
- 610 on the bi-mode InterCity Express
- 552 on the diesel InterCity Express
- 794 on the current Eurostar trainsets
etc...
That compares with...
- 538 on the Class 91s/InterCity 225 trainsets
- 439 on the 9-car Virgin Pendolinos
- 591 on the 11-car Virgin Pendolinos
- 649 on the electric InterCity Express
- 610 on the bi-mode InterCity Express
- 552 on the diesel InterCity Express
- 794 on the current Eurostar trainsets
etc...
As a bit of an aside, why do FGW find it so difficult to avoid using high-density, "Express Café" sets on services to/from Plymouth and Penzance? Whilst waiting at Plymouth yesterday I saw one heading west, then when my service pulled in it was one.
IEP passenger numbers (based on the plans from http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/iep-train-layouts/iep-train-layouts.pdf):
5 coach IEP - 315 seats (45 being first class)
9 coach IEP - 627 seats (101 being first class)
Both of these are stated as normal density (so presumably some capability for TOC's to fit a few more in if their routes require it).
However, if this configuration is used, this means that 2x5coach IEP's running together will have more seats than a single 9 coach and a greater proportion of standard seats than first class.
5 coach IEP - 315 seats (45 being first class)
9 coach IEP - 627 seats (101 being first class)
Both of these are stated as normal density (so presumably some capability for TOC's to fit a few more in if their routes require it).
However, if this configuration is used, this means that 2x5coach IEP's running together will have more seats than a single 9 coach and a greater proportion of standard seats than first class.
- Status