Huddersfield - Sheffield - London Open Access

[daniel3982]

Just read on another forum that our old old friends Alliance Rail Holdings are planning a London - Huddersfield via Sheffield Open Access service via the MML and Penistone line, any thoughts?

 

[Masboroughlad]

Brilliant idea! I think they planning to go via ECML though aren't they?

 

[pemma]

The proposed Alliance Rail London services are:

Leeds to Euston via Huddersfield and Alderley Edge interworked with Bradford to Euston via Rochdale, Newton-le-Willows and Winsford.

Carlisle to Euston via Sellafield and Carnforth interworked with Blackpool to Euston

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gnwr/

Huddersfield to Kings Cross via Penistone interworked with Ilkley/Skipton to Kings Cross service

Cleethorphes to London (4tpd)
http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gner/

There's also a proposed Liverpool to Hull service via Victoria and Bradford.

 

[TheWalrus]

Sounds a lot like an idea I had…

 

[Welshman]

Sounds an excellent idea as Huddersfield has long needed a through service to London.
It would also restore a London service to Barnsley.
I imagine one problem though, would be threading it through the existing Sheffield-Huddersfield stopping service, with its long stretches of single track.

 

[Greenback]

I won't hold my breath waiting for these services to start

 

[sonorguy]

Carlisle to Euston by the Cumbria Coast route? I'm struggling to see why anyone would ever use it.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Carlisle to Euston by the Cumbria Coast route? I'm struggling to see why anyone would ever use it.

Cheaper and more scenic for a run out?

 

[cuccir]

Carlisle to Euston by the Cumbria Coast route? I'm struggling to see why anyone would ever use it.

Depends on the cost and the speed they can get to, but I agree I don't see why anyone would chose this option for Carlisle. I presume they're banking on passengers for Workington, Whitehaven, Sellafield, Barrow and Ulverston from London. There may be some limited scope for this service locally to work as a 'Cumbria Coast Line express' if it can cut significant time off the journey compared to the stopper.

Anyway, I thought that their plans had all been rejected?

 

[pemma]

Anyway, I thought that their plans had all been rejected?

Their WCML plans were rejected as ORR said they would require a WCML recast which would be too soon after the last one, but Alliance have interpreted that as they can resubmit the plans again in a year or so.

 

[martinsh]

Just read on another forum that our old old friends Alliance Rail Holdings are planning a London - Huddersfield via Sheffield Open Access service via the MML and Penistone line, any thoughts?

Wouldn't it be quicker if they reopend the Crigglestone Curve (west side at Horbury - I gather the formation is still there) and went Huddersfield - Barnsley that way ?

to go via Worksop it would have to reverse at Sheffield. Can't see MML being too happy about this. Maybe they will attempt to extend some London - Sheffields to Barnsley ?

 

[gordonthemoron]

how easy is it for a train to join the ECML at Retford from the Sheffield-Lincoln line?

 

[Super Sprinter]

Cheaper and more scenic for a run out?

Yes for an enthusiast like all of us.

A lot of people just want to get from A to B as quickly as possible.

I suspect this could go the same way as WSMR if it was approved.

 

[Darandio]

how easy is it for a train to join the ECML at Retford from the Sheffield-Lincoln line?

Depends what you define as easy. Round the chord into the down platform, then you have to cross over to the up. Sounds simple enough but pathing would no doubt be an issue.

 

[cuccir]

Yes for an enthusiast like all of us.

A lot of people just want to get from A to B as quickly as possible.

I suspect this could go the same way as WSMR if it was approved.

There's currently 25 stops between Barrow and Carlisle. Even though many are request, the train still slows significantly for these, and in my experience the trains usually have to stop. If these are reduced to 5 stops (based on Alliance's current map) then that's 20 fewer. If each stop slows the train by between one and two minutes, that's 20 to 40 minutes off the journey time: they could bring it to under 2 hours. This would make Alliance's services comfortably the fastest option for South-North Cumbria, and indeed, would be the fastest option for all journeys from South Cumbria to Scotland or the North-East. {Edit: And indeed from West Cumbria to the south no doubt, as well}

Now this isn't a huge market, but it might well be enough to justify running the service to Carlisle rather than (say) terminating at Workington/Whitehaven, if you were just targeting the London > Cumbria market.

All that said, the usual reservations about Open Access taking stock from franchised routes, and obsessing about London connections, still apply...

 

[pemma]

All that said, the usual reservations about Open Access taking stock from franchised routes, and obsessing about London connections, still apply...

Alliance Rail are proposing new Polaris 6 car DEMUs but whether they would get them delivered in time if they were given paths starting in Dec 2013 is another question.

 

[David]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the chances of these services starting are just about non existant.

Huddersfield - London

No chance of getting paths around Sheffield, as Nunnery Main Line Jn is already a network pinchpoint, with 22 trains per hour using it (IIRC).

Skipton/Ilkley - London

Skipton and Ilkley - Leeds and Mickelfield is basically combining and duplicating services from Northern, while Leeds - London is basically an ORCATS raid.

GNWR routes

The only new journey opportunity there is Huddersfield - Guide Bridge - Stockport direct, every thing else is just duplicating other services, such as Preston - Blackpool or Barrow.

The Cleethorpes - London service is a bit of an oddity as well, calling at Habrough instead of Barnetby, plus calling at Thorne South, although personally, I wouldn't mind a direct train to London ....

Another question that needs to be answered is .... What stock will be used? The only suitable stock currently available for the ECML operations (and the TPE service) is 2 Adelantes. If they decide to buy a completely new fleet, and they want it to be interchangeable with the GNWR side, then it needs to be able to tilt in order to achive 125mph on the WCML. That means a tilt profile carriage with all the equipment needed. Also needed would be several underfloor engines (Cummins QSK19 or equivelant), and all the associated bits needed. Finally, for the sections under the wires, pantograph, transformer, etc.

What's the betting these units will be the heavest DEMU by a long way to run on the railways?

 

[Greenback]

Agreed, David, it's little more than pie in the sky.

 

[pemma]

Another question that needs to be answered is .... What stock will be used? The only suitable stock currently available for the ECML operations (and the TPE service) is 2 Adelantes. If they decide to buy a completely new fleet, and they want it to be interchangeable with the GNWR side, then it needs to be able to tilt in order to achive 125mph on the WCML. That means a tilt profile carriage with all the equipment needed. Also needed would be several underfloor engines (Cummins QSK19 or equivelant), and all the associated bits needed. Finally, for the sections under the wires, pantograph, transformer, etc.

What's the betting these units will be the heavest DEMU by a long way to run on the railways?

See page 9 of http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1r...ferrerUrl=http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gnwr/

 

[sulli_os]

I think everything should be done to allow such proposals to succeed. Lots of private money (and jobs) coming into the railways cannot be a bad thing.

Given that they seem to favour the promotion of "parkway" stations, I can't help but think there would be merit in a Sheffield Parkway station between Woodhouse and Darnall, just off the main artery into Sheffield at the edge of a proposed new town called Waverly.

Such a development could be used by Northern's Lincoln - Sheffield services, and potentially (since it doesn't have the same station congestion as Sheffield Midland) an option for HS2 if/when it arrives. Would also form a suitable terminus for Don Valley Rail if they ever get going.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Alliance Rail are proposing new Polaris 6 car DEMUs but whether they would get them delivered in time if they were given paths starting in Dec 2013 is another question.

They would. Design work on Polaris is well advanced.

 

[Deerfold]

I think everything should be done to allow such proposals to succeed. Lots of private money (and jobs) coming into the railways cannot be a bad thing.

I'd say that rather depends what alternative plans they prevent.

 

[gordonthemoron]

how long before every station in the country has a direct service to London?

 

[David]

Given that they seem to favour the promotion of "parkway" stations, I can't help but think there would be merit in a Sheffield Parkway station between Woodhouse and Darnall, just off the main artery into Sheffield at the edge of a proposed new town called Waverly.

Such a development could be used by Northern's Lincoln - Sheffield services, and potentially (since it doesn't have the same station congestion as Sheffield Midland) an option for HS2 if/when it arrives. Would also form a suitable terminus for Don Valley Rail if they ever get going.

Still a question of how trains will get from Meadowhall to the SHeffield Lincoln line. Seeing as there is no connection between the lines, that leaves the option of reversing at Sheffield or a very expensive bulldozing project to build a new chord.

 

[pemma]

how long before every station in the country has a direct service to London?

A long time. Some stations only get one train per week. Although, saying that Stone had no service but when it got a new service it was part of a Crewe-Euston stopper.

 

[wbbminerals]

Wouldn't it be quicker if they reopend the Crigglestone Curve (west side at Horbury - I gather the formation is still there)

The track there is partially lifted and is a nice walk.

 

[trickyvegas]

how long before every station in the country has a direct service to London?

Middlewood is crying out for one.

 

[Greenback]

Gowerton certainly needs one, if only for the local Conservative Club outings. Although I gather this week's trip to Haringey has been postponed.

 

[trickyvegas]

Gowerton certainly needs one, if only for the local Conservative Club outings. Although I gather this week's trip to Haringey has been postponed.

I think a Middlewood-Gowerton-Ardwick-Euston sleeper with a cinema car is what the railway is crying out for.

 

[MCR247]

I think a modified 25 car Velaro D would be suitable? Might not be long enough to cope with demand increases though..?

15 Standard class carriages
5 first Class
1 Cinema coach
1 Icerink coach
2 Sleeper coaches
1 Pizza Express car

Running every 15 minutes, 24/7

:P