Hull Trains 180 on fire again.

[ForTheLoveOf]

I notice that on Hull Trains' website it says



From this, am I right in assuming there is no ticket acceptance from LNER or Grand Central for those with HT only tickets at present?

If there are no HT services for the route, any other train company in a position to assist, must do so! So really it is wrong for HT to suggest there is no ticket acceptance - and in any case, surely a problem of this significance warrants declaring a semi-permanent "level 2 incident" where I understand industry agreements dictate tickets must be accepted on other TOCs.

 

[DaiGog]

Sat on 15.12 at Hull. Advised that will need to change at Doncaster for connection to KGX.

No explanation given so far...

The onward service is the 1626 from Doncaster.

 

[Bungle965]

It does seem slightly better today in terms of ticket acceptance, with the journey checks that I have seen there has been no advice to get an East Midlands Trains service from Sheffield for example, which appeared at the weekend.
Retford customers are still in a taxi however.
Sam

 

[DaiGog]

I notice that on Hull Trains' website it says



From this, am I right in assuming there is no ticket acceptance from LNER or Grand Central for those with HT only tickets at present?

This just offers maximum flexibility for customers who may wish to travel earlier or later given the extended journey times. Ticket acceptance is currently in place for today and Tuesday - later in the week will be confirmed once the level of service to be provided by HT is known.

 

[DaiGog]

If there are no HT services for the route, any other train company in a position to assist, must do so! So really it is wrong for HT to suggest there is no ticket acceptance - and in any case, surely a problem of this significance warrants declaring a semi-permanent "level 2 incident" where I understand industry agreements dictate tickets must be accepted on other TOCs.

Other operators are entitled to refuse ticket acceptance for passengers with TOC-only tickets not normally valid on their services. They sometimes refuse when loadings on their own services are high, but as a rule they do try to help out where they can, even if it means a bit of a wait for a quieter service, or spreading the load out between two or more trains. The affected operator cannot enforce ticket acceptance on other operators, so it's not a case of HT suggesting that there is no ticket acceptance when really there is - and after all, why would they do that?

I'm not sure of the rules around when a TOC can trigger a 'Level 2 incident' or similar, but I am sure that HT would have done it if they were able to, and if it would help matters.

 

[DaiGog]

It does seem slightly better today in terms of ticket acceptance, with the journey checks that I have seen there has been no advice to get an East Midlands Trains service from Sheffield for example, which appeared at the weekend.
Retford customers are still in a taxi however.
Sam

LNER or GC services are always the first choice, for obvious reasons. EMT are used where loadings on LNER/GC prohibit the use of convenient trains on the ECML, and road transport mainly for shorter distances where no realistic rail alternative exists at the time it is required - Doncaster to Selby and Howden is usually by road as well as Retford.

 

[HullRailMan]

Just left the 1512 from Hull. Clear announcements about the connection needed at Doncaster after every stop. Customer service rep at every station on the way I noticed (even Howden!) so I don’t think anyone can say they are in the dark about their options.

The message on their website just means you can use any service this week, not just the one you are booked on. LNER are not checking ticket validity against specific services.

 

[Crossover]

If there are no HT services for the route, any other train company in a position to assist, must do so! So really it is wrong for HT to suggest there is no ticket acceptance - and in any case, surely a problem of this significance warrants declaring a semi-permanent "level 2 incident" where I understand industry agreements dictate tickets must be accepted on other TOCs.

Something I was reading last night suggested this may not be the case with HT being an Open Access Operator. What the accuracy of this is, however, I am unsure. The fact that taxis seem to be being arranged in some cases suggests it may not be a given to travel on any other service

 

[Mike395]

Something I was reading last night suggested this may not be the case with HT being an Open Access Operator. What the accuracy of this is, however, I am unsure. The fact that taxis seem to be being arranged in some cases suggests it may not be a given to travel on any other service

That's my understanding too - same reason Heathrow Express dont have to pass tickets when the Connect (not infrequently) goes belly up due to stock shortages.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Something I was reading last night suggested this may not be the case with HT being an Open Access Operator. What the accuracy of this is, however, I am unsure. The fact that taxis seem to be being arranged in some cases suggests it may not be a given to travel on any other service

That's my understanding too - same reason Heathrow Express dont have to pass tickets when the Connect (not infrequently) goes belly up due to stock shortages.

Ok, so that may be the case for internal industry procedures of declaring a major incident. However, NRCoT 28.2 is impervious as to whether or not the company you were booked to travel with is an OAO or not. Any Train Company in a position to assist a stranded passenger must do so regardless of the name or type of the stranding operator.

 

[SilentGrade]

Are there no waiting rooms at Doncaster? Genuine question as I haven't been there.

There are actually several

 

[Mike395]

Ok, so that may be the case for internal industry procedures of declaring a major incident. However, NRCoT 28.2 is impervious as to whether or not the company you were booked to travel with is an OAO or not. Any Train Company in a position to assist a stranded passenger must do so regardless of the name or type of the stranding operator.

My reading of 28.2 is in relation to unforeseen incidents outwith the control of the operator. I agree this applied on the night of the fire - where HT can't realistically have been expected to have contingency plans immediately in place, but not on subsequent days where their own shortage of stock (and, as an OAO, stock availability is entirely the company's responsibility) is affecting service availability.

 

[Starmill]

That's my understanding too - same reason Heathrow Express dont have to pass tickets when the Connect (not infrequently) goes belly up due to stock shortages.

Heathrow Express and Eurostar (and London Underground, the various London Bus operators, National Express West Midlands, Arriva North West, Metrolink, London Tramlink and a whole host of others with whom ticket acceptence is regularly arranged now) are not subject to NRCoT. Hull Trains and Grand Central (and LNER) are. So I would say this comparison does not really hold much value.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

My reading of 28.2 is in relation to unforeseen incidents outwith the control of the operator. I agree this applied on the night of the fire - where HT can't realistically have been expected to have contingency plans immediately in place, but not on subsequent days where their own shortage of stock (and, as an OAO, stock availability is entirely the company's responsibility) is affecting service availability.

I don't see that the controllability of delays factors into it. The only conditions we are given is that:

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used

So:

• There must be disruption - i.e. you cannot expect assistance for planned changes (i.e. ones that were planned at the time of booking)
• It must prevent you from completing your journey - i.e. it must not just delay your journey
• You must have a valid ticket

All three of those are fulfilled in these circumstances, in the case of someone who booked a ticket before the recent fire.

 

[westv]

Are there no waiting rooms at Doncaster? Genuine question as I haven't been there.

Not much use when they are full.

 

[Starmill]

If there are no HT services for the route, any other train company in a position to assist, must do so! So really it is wrong for HT to suggest there is no ticket acceptance - and in any case, surely a problem of this significance warrants declaring a semi-permanent "level 2 incident" where I understand industry agreements dictate tickets must be accepted on other TOCs.

Something I was reading last night suggested this may not be the case with HT being an Open Access Operator. What the accuracy of this is, however, I am unsure. The fact that taxis seem to be being arranged in some cases suggests it may not be a given to travel on any other service

That's my understanding too - same reason Heathrow Express dont have to pass tickets when the Connect (not infrequently) goes belly up due to stock shortages.

I don't see that the controllability of delays factors into it. The only conditions we are given is that:


So:

• There must be disruption - i.e. you cannot expect assistance for planned changes (i.e. ones that were planned at the time of booking)
• It must prevent you from completing your journey - i.e. it must not just delay your journey
• You must have a valid ticket

All three of those are fulfilled in these circumstances, in the case of someone who booked a ticket before the recent fire.

In addition, I am not at all clear why we are all discussing why ticket acceptence has not been arranged by Hull Trains when it in fact has been arranged?

18:48 London Kings Cross to Beverley due 21:44 will be cancelled.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.


Beverley, Cottingham, Hull and Brough customers are advised to travel on the 1903 LNER service to Doncaster arriving 2040. Then transfer onto 2058 Northern service to Brough 2132, Hull 2148, Cottingham 2204, Beverley arriving 2209.
Howden & Selby customers are advised to travel on the 1903 LNER service to Doncaster arriving 2040. Then transfer into the taxis at 2045 from Doncaster through to Howden and Selby.
Doncaster Customers are advised to travel on the 1903 LNER service to Doncaster arriving 2040.
Retford Customers are advised to travel on the LNER 1906 service to Newark arrive 2033. Then transfer into the taxis provided through to Retford at 2040.
Grantham Customers are advised to travel on the LNER 1906 service from Grantham arriving 2018.

https://www.journeycheck.com/hulltrains/

The only reason people from Retford are going in a taxi is because sometimes there is not an LNER alternative as Retford recieves a poor service. There is poor service at Howden too, which is why customers for Howden often end up in a taxi. Not because ticket acceptence is being rejected. Sometimes TransPennine Express will even call additionally at Howden if that part of the route is affected.

 

[Crossover]

In addition, I am not at all clear why we are all discussing why ticket acceptence has not been arranged by Hull Trains when it in fact has been arranged?

At the time, it may not have been sorted, even if it has now

 

[Failed Unit]

I don’t think any question are raised on this occasion. I know in the past LNER have refused because their own services are heavily loaded, which i am sure was the reason last time HT customers needed to travel via Sheffield if they had a HT only ticket.

 

[Starmill]

At the time, it may not have been sorted, even if it has now

Details of the arrangements were first sent out last night

https://twitter.com/Hull_Trains/status/1049145255751274496?s=19

HullTrains CUSTOMER ADVICE



SERVICE ALTERATION - MONDAY 8th OCTOBER 2018
06:00 BEVERLEY — 09:15 LONDON KING’S CROSS



BEVERLEY COTTINGHAM HULL BROUGH HOWDEN SELBY DONCASTER RETFORD GRANTHAM LONDON
06 DO 06 06 06 26 06 38 06 51 07 D1 0717 07 40 08 U1 KING‘S CROSS

0915
WHERE ARE YOU TRAVELLING FROM?

BEVERLEY COTTINGHAM HULL BROUGH HOWDEN SELBY DONCASTER
Take the 07.47 LNER service from Doncaster to London King’s Cross, arriving 09:31.

RETFORD
Take taxis to Newark at 07:40.Transfer on to the 08:24 Journey updates avallable on Twrtter
LNER service from Newark to Kings Cross, arriving 09:53.

GRANTHAM
Take the 08:18 LNER service to London King’sCruss,arrIVIng 09:31

Alternatively, visit @Hull Trains or www.journeycheck.com/huIltrains


www.hulltrains.co.uk or call 0345
071 0222.

 

[Crossover]

Details of the arrangements were first sent out last night

https://twitter.com/Hull_Trains/status/1049145255751274496?s=19
View attachment 53546

That's nice of them......

 

[Starmill]

I don’t think any question are raised on this occasion. I know in the past LNER have refused because their own services are heavily loaded, which i am sure was the reason last time HT customers needed to travel via Sheffield if they had a HT only ticket.

Indeed. When this happens, Hull Trains sometimes get ticket acceptence with GTR for services from London to Peterborough and then arrange road transport from Peterborough to the various destinations. Long way to go in a taxi from Peterborough to Hull!

 

[Crossover]

Indeed. When this happens, Hull Trains sometimes get ticket acceptence with GTR for services from London to Peterborough and then arrange road transport from Peterborough to the various destinations. Long way to go in a taxi from Peterborough to Hull!

Off topic for the thread as such, but I think the same has happened with Grand Central before as well

 

[TUC]

Hull Trains appear to still have no details of the alternative arrangements for cancelled/truncated services tomorrow morning https://www.journeycheck.com/hulltrains/ . That really is unacceptsble.

 

[Bungle965]

Hull Trains appear to still have no details of the alternative arrangements for cancelled/truncated services tomorrow morning https://www.journeycheck.com/hulltrains/ . That really is unacceptsble.

Perhaps they are waiting to hear back from LNER regarding ticket acceptance.
Sam

 

[infobleep]

Hull Trains appear to still have no details of the alternative arrangements for cancelled/truncated services tomorrow morning https://www.journeycheck.com/hulltrains/ . That really is unacceptsble.

The information is now up there. The 6:00am. Beverly service was last updated at 6:15am and it may have been added even earlier. Passengers on that train would more than likely have been informed what is happening to them.

 

[TUC]

The information is now up there. The 6:00am. Beverly service was last updated at 6:15am and it may have been added even earlier. Passengers on that train would more than likely have been informed what is happening to them.

Unless they had booked online via the Hull Trains site and so were contactable, how would they have been informed? (And, if that information was avsilable, presumably it should also have been available for the website?)

 

[TUC]

So another few quid they've cost then!

Well, hopefully it's cost the manufacturers and/or maintenance company rather than HT because it's really not good enough for it to be said that particular train designs are prone to the same repeated problem, or for such a dangerous fault to occur. It's design or maintsinance failures thst lead to such issues.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unless they had booked online via the Hull Trains site and so were contactable, how would they have been informed? (And, if that information was avsilable, presumably it should also have been available for the website?)

Because they were on the train? It ran as far as Doncaster so anyone on-board before the update at 0615 would have been informed shortly after departure from Beverley or Cottingham whilst anyone else for stations further ahead would have been able to find out online.

 

[TUC]

I mesn

Because they were on the train? It ran as far as Doncaster so anyone on-board before the update at 0615 would have been informed shortly after departure from Beverley or Cottingham whilst anyone else for stations further ahead would have been able to find out online.

I mean that many people would want to know the arrangements before they left home so they could judge whether these would get them where theyy needed be on time, and indeed to be assured that arrangements were in place at all, including for any return journeys lzter today.

 

[JN114]

Well, hopefully it's cost the manufacturers and/or maintenance company rather than HT because it's really not good enough for it to be said that particular train designs are prone to the same repeated problem, or for such a dangerous fault to occur. It's design or maintsinance failures thst lead to such issues.

A dramatic looking fault, yes. But don’t conflate that as dangerous. No smoke or flame entered passenger areas of the train, and fire protection particulars of engine raft prevented a small fire in one engine component spreading to other parts of the underframe and damaging more systems.