Hull trains becoming more like Lumo?

[Kite159]

What do you mean I can't take my kitchen sink when I'm going on a long weekend somewhere?

The overhead racks on the 80X trains are quite large and will take large rucksacks or suitcases, compared to the racks on the voyagers/222s which are small in comparison (due to the bodies being built for tilt).

 

[Towers]

Why wouldn't it be relevant?

Do we make rail passengers wear seatbelts in case of an accident? Maybe we should ban the catering trolley, that’ll be lethal if it ploughs into somebody during an collision, etc etc.

Luggage allowances are entirely related to space on board the train, and have nothing to do with the miniscule risk of suitcases becoming dislodged from overhead racks if a train overspeeds across a set of points!

Rather than convert half of the DPTS vehicle on 80xs to carry luggage, would it not be better for the TOCs to have an associated service to send larger baggage onto your final destination from the origin station within 24hrs for a fee? Seems the most logical and realistic solution to me.

So that the customer makes a journey and then has to go back to the railway station the following day to pick their luggage up?! That’s all a bit antiquated!

Of course it is. Whether it can housed safely to avoid becoming a missile in the event of an incident is very important.

Except it’s evidently a complete irelevance, as not one single TOC does this?!

 

[superalbs]

I think all TOCs are at least now looking at it, the CCTV of things flying around with during the Lumo overspending incident at Peterborough has concentrated minds a bit.

Lol, so the amount of luggage carried has to be limited in case they forget how to drive the train.

 

[LowLevel]

Do we make rail passengers wear seatbelts in case of an accident? Maybe we should ban the catering trolley, that’ll be lethal if it ploughs into somebody during an collision, etc etc.

Luggage allowances are entirely related to space on board the train, and have nothing to do with the miniscule risk of suitcases becoming dislodged from overhead racks if a train overspeeds across a set of points!


So that the customer makes a journey and then has to go back to the railway station the following day to pick their luggage up?! That’s all a bit antiquated!


Except it’s evidently a complete irelevance, as not one single TOC does this?!

Even though there's a whole write up on the subject of luggage storage, the restrictions policy and a recommendation addressing the carriage of large items of luggage on board the train in the RAIB report on the Lumo overspeed at Peterborough, which from what I understand lead to at least one operator changing their storage arrangements?

Lol, so the amount of luggage carried has to be limited in case they forget how to drive the train.

No, but for example large cases shouldn't be in overhead racks if they're not sufficiently restrained, they should be in standing racks or storage areas provided in sufficient numbers to accommodate them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, but for example large cases shouldn't be in overhead racks if they're not sufficiently restrained, they should be in standing racks or storage areas provided in sufficient numbers to accommodate them.

The 80x rack design doesn't help, they are near horizontal so it's much easier for stuff to fall off than in CAF stock where they tilt upwards slightly despite being of the same size if not a little bigger. That could really do with being looked at - minor but effective changes like adding a plastic lip wouldn't be difficult.

Avanti, notably, have significantly increased (near but not quite doubled) floor level racks on Pendolinos and specified their 80x with lots of rack space plus that between seat backs of the large number of facing seats, so don't have the same issue as other 80x operators.

Having said that I'm not observing people with lots of big bags. Most usual is one hard-sided IATA carry-on each. The main problem with these is that people are often too bone idle to put them up even though they easily could, and so they end up piled in doorways etc, and the floor level racks aren't available for the bigger stuff.

 

[Towers]

Even though there's a whole write up on the subject of luggage storage, the restrictions policy and a recommendation addressing the carriage of large items of luggage on board the train in the RAIB report on the Lumo overspeed at Peterborough, which from what I understand lead to at least one operator changing their storage arrangements?

Which TOC no longer allows unrestrained items to be placed in the overhead racks?

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course the real cause of this issue isn't, apart from a small minority, people bringing unrealistic amounts of luggage it's the fact we've procured a generation of long distance trains (some of which serve airports!) which do not have sufficient luggage capacity.

I would say from observation the overwhelming majority of people are well within the NRCoT limit for luggage. Usually seems to be one suitcase and one other bag. Which is logical as that's the sort of luggage like will be used to travelling with when flying.

Yet trains are still swamped and so now we have operators imposing additional restrictions on luggage and we have people blaming passengers for daring to want to actually have some luggage when they travel.

This has only become an issue in recent years (in general, of course it's been a problem from time to time) around the same time that we replaced fleets that had luggage vans (HSTs and Mk4s) with fleets that not only have no vans but also have smaller and fewer luggage stands than we had before. I don't buy that since 2018 people have suddenly started travelling with more luggage than ever before.

Whilst usually I'm happy to stand up and defend the UK railway as being not as bad as people make out and comparisons with overseas railways often being rose tinted and unfair. In this case this is a problem entirely of the making of those that specify and procure our train fleets. Overseas they have adequate luggage provision including luggage vans.

But I guess in the UK it's easier to just blame the passenger and pretend that the rare exception who legitimately takes the mick is in fact the standard passenger.

 

[james_the_xv]

So that the customer makes a journey and then has to go back to the railway station the following day to pick their luggage up?! That’s all a bit antiquated!

I meant final destination . Perhaps would have been a good use for the 325s + fleets of small electric vans for the last mile stuff in another timeline.

 

[Krokodil]

There is one - 90x70x30cm. Though as on another thread recently I think the 30 should probably be 40 because almost no expedition/camping rucksacks (which have a squareish profile) are 30 deep, more like 35.

My ex-MoD deployment bag is 84x34x24 (according to Google, I'm not measuring it myself). Fits fine on overhead racks of most units (usually pretty snugly so less likely to fall out) and is fairly soft so less of a hazard than a hard suitcase would be.

No, but for example large cases shouldn't be in overhead racks if they're not sufficiently restrained, they should be in standing racks or storage areas provided in sufficient numbers to accommodate them.

197s are awful (in so many ways), there is only one standing rack per carriage. @Bletchleyite has previously argued that this shouldn't matter as the overhead racks are generous but I feel very uncomfortable seeing large hard cases above everyone's heads.

Having said that I'm not observing people with lots of big bags.

Come to Rhyl or Prestatyn on a Friday in the summer, just after the camps kick out at 10am.

 

[Towers]

I meant final destination . Perhaps would have been a good use for the 325s + fleets of small electric vans for the last mile stuff in another timeline.

Ah, I see - could call it Red Star!

 

[LowLevel]

Which TOC no longer allows unrestrained items to be placed in the overhead racks?

No longer allowed? None. Some have added additional stacks, other TOCs including my own have issued new notice case and safety brief items to train crew to ensure they're monitoring what is stored in the overhead racks following a number of injuries being sustained even in normal working. Class 158s in particular have always been prone.

I've personally been interviewed following a passenger neck injury on my train caused by a suitcase striking them on their head, albeit some time ago.

I don't particularly care whether you agree with me or not - I know for a fact the matter has come into consideration since the Lumo incident, that's what railway undertakings have to do with RAIB recommendations.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Which is a good thing. The amount of utter junk people take with them is unbelievable - you’d think they were going away for a month! It’s the scourge of the wheeled suitcase meaning people bring loads because the wheels make it easier and then find they can’t lift it onto a luggage stack.

Really simple rule: if you can’t carry it, don’t take it!

I couldn't agree more. If you're going away for a weekend all you need to take with you is your normal day rucksack plus a toothbrush and a pair of socks and pants for each day you're away. What exactly do these people with massive suitcases on wheels put in them?

I mostly travel with a small case which can safely be stored on the overhead rack on most trains. Even on a 158 or a 170 I have no problems storing my small case on the overhead rack. The problem comes on trains like a Voyager or Meridian where the overhead luggage space is so small that even my small case will not fit.

If it won't fit in the luggage rack then it's not a small case! Perhaps that should be the rule; if it won't fit in the luggage rack you can't take it in the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I couldn't agree more. If you're going away for a weekend all you need to take with you is your normal day rucksack plus a toothbrush and a pair of socks and pants for each day you're away. What exactly do these people with massive suitcases on wheels put in them?

More changes of clothes than you...if you wear the same shirt all weekend I hope I'm not sitting next to you!

If it won't fit in the luggage rack then it's not a small case! Perhaps that should be the rule; if it won't fit in the luggage rack you can't take it in the train?

Voyager, 170 and 175 racks barely fit a coat or laptop bag. They are not fit for purpose.

 

[43066]

Of course the real cause of this issue isn't, apart from a small minority, people bringing unrealistic amounts of luggage it's the fact we've procured a generation of long distance trains (some of which serve airports!) which do not have sufficient luggage capacity.

I would say from observation the overwhelming majority of people are well within the NRCoT limit for luggage. Usually seems to be one suitcase and one other bag. Which is logical as that's the sort of luggage like will be used to travelling with when flying.

Yet trains are still swamped and so now we have operators imposing additional restrictions on luggage and we have people blaming passengers for daring to want to actually have some luggage when they travel.

This has only become an issue in recent years (in general, of course it's been a problem from time to time) around the same time that we replaced fleets that had luggage vans (HSTs and Mk4s) with fleets that not only have no vans but also have smaller and fewer luggage stands than we had before. I don't buy that since 2018 people have suddenly started travelling with more luggage than ever before.

Whilst usually I'm happy to stand up and defend the UK railway as being not as bad as people make out and comparisons with overseas railways often being rose tinted and unfair. In this case this is a problem entirely of the making of those that specify and procure our train fleets. Overseas they have adequate luggage provision including luggage vans.

But I guess in the UK it's easier to just blame the passenger and pretend that the rare exception who legitimately takes the mick is in fact the standard passenger.

It’s true that the long distance fleet hasn’t been adequately specified in many cases. The problem, though, is that we are now stuck with it, so this point was always going to be reached eventually. We’d have been having the same conversations five years ago if Covid hadn’t happened.

As numbers continue to rise (and LNER are busier than ever before, not just busier since Covid) it’s likely that this kind of thing will become more commonplace. It isn’t about blaming passengers (the majority don’t take silly amounts, although the small % who do have a disproportionate effect). It’s more that people will need to get used to the idea that they might need to pay extra to carry luggage, or limit what they take. Just as they would for a flight.

People hark back to the days of luggage vans etc. but they aren’t coming back, simply because they date from an era when far, far fewer people were being carried and space wasn’t at such a premium. AIUI there are far more seats travelling up and down the ECML today than there were during the HST/IC225 era, albeit the average train length has presumably reduced.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most usual is one hard-sided IATA carry-on each. The main problem with these is that people are often too bone idle to put them up even though they easily could

Is it a) safe or b) desirable for someone to be lifting 15-20kg of luggage into an overhead rack? My standard IATA hard-shell will normally weigh somewhere between 10 and 20kg, depending on what I have packed.

I can lift it but I wouldn't particularly want to be sitting underneath it if the train movement jolted it. Maybe the overhead racks should have doors, as they do on aircraft for the exact same reason.

Perhaps that should be the rule; if it won't fit in the luggage rack you can't take it in the train?

There should be an area of the train where large luggage items can be stored.

Sadly, there isn't.

And on some trains (Voyagers) even small suitcases don't fit. I have a soft-shell suitcase which easily fits in the tiny overhead lockers of an ATR72 aircraft yet doesn't fit in a Voyager.

Except it’s evidently a complete irelevance, as not one single TOC does this?!

Except it isn't.

In the LUMO overspeed incident the RAIB report noted half of all the injuries sustained by the passengers were caused as a result of luggage falling on them.

Report 06/2023: Train overspeeding at Spital Junction

Train overspeeding at Spital Junction, Peterborough, 17 April 2022.

www.gov.uk

Dealing with the risks of "high volumes of large and heavy luggage stowed in overhead luggage racks" was one of the RAIB recommendations:

Lumo should assess the risks of high volumes of large and likely heavy luggage stowed in overhead luggage racks which can fall on passengers if trains suffer significant lateral accelerations. This assessment should specifically examine the design of overhead luggage racks, the amount of alternative luggage storage space provided and passenger luggage policies. Lumo should implement any control measures identified as appropriate (paragraph 204). This recommendation may also apply to other train operators.

Clearly RAIB are very concerned about the effects of heavy luggage being stored in overhead luggage racks, but what do they know!

Of course the real cause of this issue isn't, apart from a small minority, people bringing unrealistic amounts of luggage it's the fact we've procured a generation of long distance trains (some of which serve airports!) which do not have sufficient luggage capacity.

That's exactly the issue: trains don't have any storage space.

Depending on which ticket I buy, I can take 64kg of luggage with me on British Airways. But taking that on the train to the airport is "unrealistic".

And we actually want people to travel by train instead of by car?

 

[John R]

I couldn't agree more. If you're going away for a weekend all you need to take with you is your normal day rucksack plus a toothbrush and a pair of socks and pants for each day you're away. What exactly do these people with massive suitcases on wheels put in them?

It may surprise you to know that people travelling by train do go away for longer than a weekend. Indeed, a family using the train to get to the airport for a week or fortnight’s holiday is likely to have quite a lot of luggage between them. And not all of those journeys will be on trains that have luggage facilities specifically for airport travellers.

 

[ChrisC]

If it won't fit in the luggage rack then it's not a small case! Perhaps that should be the rule; if it won't fit in the luggage rack you can't take it in the train?

The overhead racks on a Voyager or Meridian are so small that even the smallest case will not fit. There's hardly space for much more than a coat.

170 and 175 racks barely fit a coat or laptop bag. They are not fit for purpose.

I can just about fit my small case on the overhead rack of a 170 but it’s very tight. A 158 is slightly better but still a tight fit.

 

[paul1609]

The Intercity operators need to introduce Ryanair style

It’s true that the long distance fleet hasn’t been adequately specified in many cases. The problem, though, is that we are now stuck with it, so this point was always going to be reached eventually. We’d have been having the same conversations five years ago if Covid hadn’t happened.

As numbers continue to rise (and LNER are busier than ever before, not just busier since Covid) it’s likely that this kind of thing will become more commonplace. It isn’t about blaming passengers (the majority don’t take silly amounts, although the small % who do have a disproportionate effect). It’s more that people will need to get used to the idea that they might need to pay extra to carry luggage, or limit what they take. Just as they would for a flight.

People hark back to the days of luggage vans etc. but they aren’t coming back, simply because they date from an era when far, far fewer people were being carried and space wasn’t at such a premium. AIUI there are far more seats travelling up and down the ECML today than there were during the HST/IC225 era, albeit the average train length has presumably reduced.

To be honest its been a problem for many years. I can remember in the 1990s coming home from Plymouth for the weekend in the summer we used to avoid trains that had started from Cornwall because the vestibles were piled high with luggage that made it impossible to join the train at some doors.

 

[generalnerd]

You might travel between home town and uni town by train, but nobody sensible thinks they can take an estate car’s worth of clutter by train. Unfortunately an increasing number of people aren’t sensible!

Speaking of, I once rode an Elizabeth line train and somebody brought a whole board of wood and dropped it on my mother

 

[mpthomson]

Do we make rail passengers wear seatbelts in case of an accident? Maybe we should ban the catering trolley, that’ll be lethal if it ploughs into somebody during an collision, etc etc.

Luggage allowances are entirely related to space on board the train, and have nothing to do with the miniscule risk of suitcases becoming dislodged from overhead racks if a train overspeeds across a set of points!


So that the customer makes a journey and then has to go back to the railway station the following day to pick their luggage up?! That’s all a bit antiquated!


Except it’s evidently a complete irelevance, as not one single TOC does this?!

I think you need to read the RAIB report into the Peterborough incident, it contains a whole section on luggage and what happened to it.

Edit, beaten to it by Tetchytyke

 

[Bigbru]

Speaking of, I once rode an Elizabeth line train and somebody brought a whole board of wood and dropped it on my mother

How about a whole wardrobe on the overground? What could go wrong?

 

[generalnerd]

How about a whole wardrobe on the overground? What could go wrong?

Aha! That’s quite funny, it’s ridiculous what people take sometimes! Somebody was once sat with a toilet seat around their head (I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a stagdoo) on a local train near me

 

[Towers]

I think you need to read the RAIB report into the Peterborough incident, it contains a whole section on luggage and what happened to it.

Edit, beaten to it by Tetchytyke

I appreciate that, no argument there. What I’m suggesting is that it has made precious little difference to what things actually look like in real time - you’ll be hard pressed to find a long distance train without potentially missile-like items of luggage stowed in the overhead racks, and I don’t imagine that’ll change anytime soon? The notion that train operators are/should be limiting how much luggage customers can bring because of that particular incident seems rather far fetched, whatever RAIB might have said on the subject.

There’s also the issue of practicalities, which is doubtless why very few passengers are ever charged for exceeding the railway’s luggage allowances as it is. If you tighten that still further, who enforces it? A bloke stood at the gateline with a tapemeasure? The guard, going through the train checking tickets and counting suitcases?! It doesn’t work. There are more than enough hypothetical rules, policies and supposed offences already universally ignored, it’s difficult to see how another one surrounding luggage allowances will help.

 

[bahnause]

If it won't fit in the luggage rack then it's not a small case! Perhaps that should be the rule; if it won't fit in the luggage rack you can't take it in the train?

But that wouldn't mitigate the risk. The luggage is limited in size, but the biggest suitcases don't fit in the luggage rack anyway. No weight restriction on Lumos or LENR's website to be found. The RAIB reports mentions the danger of heavy items in the luggage rack. Big suitcases not being up there are not mentioned as problematic. So the RAIB recommended adding more alternative storage and changing the design of the racks.

 

[irp]

I couldn't agree more. If you're going away for a weekend all you need to take with you is your normal day rucksack plus a toothbrush and a pair of socks and pants for each day you're away. What exactly do these people with massive suitcases on wheels put in them?


If it won't fit in the luggage rack then it's not a small case! Perhaps that should be the rule; if it won't fit in the luggage rack you can't take it in the train?

This is not always as simple as it might seem. I have an 80 litre rucksack (actually 2), which technically is 10cm to tall for the regs. I am perfectly capable of slipping into a seat with that rucksack on my back, not inconvienceing anyone (yes I'm lucky I'm pretty slim), and since it's usually full of mainly clothes it can be squashed!

Now in the general case I agree with other posters about trains not being there to move house, TV sets, Wardrobes etc [some of those are entirely crazy, although I do admit students moving between home and uni and vice versa is a thing, but they tend to have less furniture than in later years ], but here are three scenarios off the top of my head where you need to take extra kit, that come to mind [I have done all three]:

1) Travelling to the Edinburgh Festivals - Even in August you never know what the weather is going to do up there! I have both had sunburn and got absolutely drenched [although not in the same year!]
2) Travelling to Corrour - Similar to Edinburgh, and you need to be prepared for the environment (waterproofs, spare boots, additional set of clothing, hiking poles etc)
3) EMF Camp or other similar four day festivals. Not only do you need clean clothes for four days, and razor/toothbrush etc, but you also need Sleeping Bag, Camping Mat, Tent etc etc [You always know you are on the right train with this one...]

 

[Towers]

The overhead racks on a Voyager or Meridian are so small that even the smallest case will not fit. There's hardly space for much more than a coat.

I can just about fit my small case on the overhead rack of a 170 but it’s very tight. A 158 is slightly better but still a tight fit.

This is presumably the likely outcome; make the racks sufficiently small that large or heavy items will no longer fit in them.

 

[ZL exile]

Took my Brompton G line on LNER today, even when folded, it will not stand of]r lay in a luggage rack, it will only fit if leant over. S not all folding bikes are equal. My original Brompton fits ok though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What they do need to do is stop saying "under your seat" and start saying "under the seat in front of you". Taking someone else's legroom with your bag is utterly unacceptable.

Completely agree with this. It’s happened to me before and it’s utterly maddening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Completely agree with this. It’s happened to me before and it’s utterly maddening.

One of the few good things about the original Pendolino seat (in my view, I know you liked them better than me) was that it had a metal bar around the bottom like plane seats have to prevent bags being put under the seat you're sitting on and thus into other peoples' legroom.

 

[Killingworth]

Today I met a chap with a very large case and unusual dimensions. It had small wheels. He'd managed to bring it all the way from Thailand, plus a large back pack, got through Manchester Airport, Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 to make the final lap home from Dore by taxi. The taxi driver declined to take him and the firm wouldn't send another. It was his full size bike. If anyone needed an old fashioned guards van (or luggage in advance service) he did. He was dead lucky, it went in my car.