generalnerd
Member
I’m travelling home today with HT so we’ll see how it goes…
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Hull Trains Strike over dismissal
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Maybe they don't even need to, if they can run the Good Friday service without striking staff. On a normal day, they were only losing one service out of six, I think.
Looks like they're running twelve services today, think they run fourteen or so on a normal Friday? HTs website suggests they've cancelled two trains due to industrial action which would tally with that.
So not exactly having a devastating impact on passengers, presumably why HT haven't made a big song and dance about it?
So not exactly having a devastating impact on passengers, presumably why HT haven't made a big song and dance about it?
The Sorcerer
Member
What they did was give notice weeks ago of a two month strike which started about 2 weeks ago. Before each strike day the strike was suspended for talks. The talks have failed again so no suspension for Friday the 18th.
Speaking to people from Hull Trains last week I received some information on what has been going on.
The drivers managers can do about 3 days then some sort of safety rules cut in and services will then be severely disrupted, they have a lot of drivers managers v drivers, sorry I can't remember the exact figure.
There is not universal support from all the drivers,some have or are talking about leaving ASLEF and joining the RMT.
The cause of the problem is not the issue of falling asleep at the controls it is the way in which the driver concerned made the company aware of his problem.
IE there is a process for drivers to alert the company if they have any fatigue problems and all drivers are made aware of this and it's importance.
The driver concerened did not use the proper facility to inform the company he was having fatigue problems which has been seen as grave misconduct resulting in dismissal.
There was a hearing and an appeal. The driver is sacked.
All hearsay though, make of it what you want. The drivers on here may know if there are such rules.
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The Hidden rules will apply, and they must presumably also apply a fatigue index which is harder to do for those combining safety critical and non safety critical tasks.
Even if there isn’t much visible impact on the service, it will be very disruptive for the managers concerned, and is unlikely to be sustainable for long, which presumably is what ASLEF are banking on.
Yes those rules exist, and it's sensible to make use of that facility if you are indeed having fatigue issues. Shift work is not easy on the body.
12 out of 14 services (85%) operating today, with only the two quietest services cancelled. The Hull Daily Mail haven't even reported todays strike on their website. Seems like a very pointless strike that nobody is taking any notice of. As noted above, I understand there is frustration among the drivers (I have a friend who is a HT driver) with the union, especially as the ballot was for two strike days a week, not almost 60 days of continuous action. The case is going to an employment tribunal, so surely the sensible approach would to await the outcome of that.
Usually, assuming the sacked employee wins, some manner of financial compensation. Depending on the facts if each case potentially five or low six figures. Reinstatement is very rare following an a tribunal.
Egg Centric
Established Member
Is it tax free?
If not then low six figures is not going to be much recompense to a train driver losing their career unless they happen to have unusual transferrable skills.
Indeed - hence why waiting for a tribunal (if one is even taking place) isn’t really a good option.
I believe compensation is tax free up to a certain amount (might be £30k ish) but unpaid wages and similar (i.e. stuff that would normally be taxed if it had been paid normally) is taxable.
Reality is that the Employment Tribunal is better than nothing but it doesn't really make an employee who has been badly treated whole. They are almost certainly not going to get their job back and the money they get won't go that far either. Hence why stronger unions like ASLEF and the RMT fight tooth and nail. And I can't really blame them when the legal recourse is so weak.
Often these things don’t reach a conclusion via tribunal… usually, depending on when the evidence is in favour of the worker, they’re settled outside.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Indeed. I head just last week that the majority (but not all) of industrial tribunal cases are resolved prior to the hearing.
Either an outcome of unfair dismissal or the application is rejected. It's worth noting that the company just has to demonstrate that it correctly followed its own policies in a fair and equitable manner and that the sanction was proportionate and reasonable. In addition they need to have complied with the information requests made by the court, so paperwork, meeting/hearing minutes, policies etc. What the judge thinks of those policies in terms of harshness is less relevant unless it's manifestly unreasonable.
If the application is upheld then financial compensation, although the employee's conduct may significantly reduce that. I've had a tribunal before that was upheld because of disciplinary process issues and a poorly worded policy but the employee was awarded nothing in the end as it was clear that the employee had done what they were accused of, in fact they admitted it in the court, and it classed as gross misconduct in a safety critical workplace. The employee had, and quoting the judge, 'been the author of their own downfall'. Whether the employee has secured other employment since dismissal will also count, especially if it's at broadly the same salary/wage as that will reduce the detriment suffered and therefore any compensation.
Costs may be awarded to either party or neither, ie each covers their own, although it's rare for an employee to be ordered to cover the employer's costs. In the case above we paid the employee's costs as directed, they'd represented themselves so these were negligible. Our costs were our solicitor and the staff time for attending.
Theoretically a judge can order reinstatement but in practice this basically never happens as the relationship between the two parties will have irretrievably broken down.
IF the above description is correct it'll come down to whether the reporting policy around fatigue is sufficiently clear, whether HT followed their own HR processes correctly in dealing with the driver (it's often appeals that can be tricky, obviously no idea if that's applicable here) and the manner that the driver reported this issue, ie did he follow the policy correctly and should he have reasonably been expected to be able to.
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The Sorcerer
Member
Yes on some sort of daily bases, some trains are still getting cancelled.
It is not clear what those cancellations are, as RTT shows that a full passenger service (of seven trains each way) ran every day last, as it did for the previous week.
It doesn’t affect pay. If they cancel the strike staff can attend work and be paid - just as they could theoretically attend work and be paid even if the strike was still occurring.
There’s no way of knowing who may have broken the strike had it not been called off.
If you turn up to work, you get paid. That applies as much to cancelled strike days as it does to people who cross the picket line.
styles
Member
Well, yeah, you can't cancel a strike you haven't called
Indefinitely, if they keep returning ballots.
As an ASELF member for a decade now, at two operators, and having seen various drivers sacked over the years with nobody batting an eyelid, I really can’t emphasise enough how unusual this is.
There’s no way I, or any members I know, would be agreeing to strike over a sacking unless there was genuinely strong feeling that the person had been done over.
Is the tactic of cancelling strikes at short notice playing dirty? In one sense, I suppose it is. However, life teaches that playing dirty is sometimes necessary to get ahead. It’s also true that the requirements to ballot for and give notice of strikes are more stringent in the UK than just about anywhere else in the developed world.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
So when does the mandate expire,
Would ASLEF ballot members again ?
styles
Member
24th May.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Thanks
Egg Centric
Established Member
Presumably they'll just extend it though? It sounds like they need to run it for months for it to actually hurt Hull Trains much (in the way it's being done in practice)?
Regardless of the merits of the issue I quite like a creative hacker mentality being applied to something as dry and boring as employment law.
They can't just extent it. There will need to be another ballot. Which presumably has already started if the old mandate finishes on the 24th May.
Does the mandate finish on 24th May? I know the strike action was confirmed up to that date.
From memory, I thought the ballot was returned on the 12th Feb?
A quick glance at the aslef website doesn't seem to show ballot results - does anyone know the actual dates of the mandate?
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