Hulley's of Baslow

[darloscott]

One for @darloscott - does this qualify for CBSSG? If the scheme is based on 2019 mileage, has is this covered? Genuine question as I'm not familiar with the conditions of the funding

Reading the T&C's nothing specifically is mentioned about 'new' routes but I am told by friends at other companies that you can indeed gain grant towards new routes - so I am actively looking into this for our new route that started 2 weeks ago. It would certainly be a financial help towards many operators to start new services to attract more people to public transport... I'll try and report back in the future.

 

[radamfi]

What are the knock on consequences?

End to end traffic will not move from rail because simply, the price differential for most people doesn't outweigh the time. Even between Glossop and Manchester, the train still has a massive time advantage. It will get some from Hollingworth hopefully and in respect of Glossop, it probably would get some pass holders who would ordinarily not travel. It also creates new links to Sheffield that don't currently exist and it might also encourage some leisure usage from the two main cities INTO the peak district that the train cannot provide, and in that respect, might help to take a few cars off the road?

Presumably, the alternative of central control is to simply remove any perceived duplication? Remove National Express/Megabus as they cover the same routes as trains? Remove the bus every 15 mins from Darlington to Middlesbrough, or between Bath and Bristol?

Bus very rarely abstracts trade from trains. The opposite is how the case.

You aren't seriously trying to say they aren't attempting to compete with the train? They are even offering Railcard discounts, which I don't think they offer on other routes. If they just ran between Glossop station and Sheffield you would have the same journey opportunities with the minor exception of Hollingworth, and even from there there are already adequate buses to Glossop, Stalybridge and Ashton where you can connect onto trains or trams.

 

[tbtc]

Why do you think other countries don't allow it? If it is so obviously right, then there would be no debate about it.

We really need to have a pinned thread for the kind of "ideal world" bus ideas, so people can pontificate about how perfect everything is in the Netherlands etc, whilst the rest of us can get on with discussing the practicalities of running buses in 2020s Britain

In reality, are you seriously saying that we shouldn't allow bus routes that link two places served by trains?

There's no train service anywhere near the Broomhill route that this new service will take out of Sheffield (where the local budget conscious student population may find a direct Manchester service much more convenient than getting a bus into central Sheffield and catching a train there), there's not been a train anywhere near Ladybower since the line built to construct the reservoir was closed (presumably there are some fanatics who still think that the entire track bed should be mothballed, mind)...

...if you feel that the train service between two of the biggest cities in England is so fragile that it'll be threatened by a bus every two hours then fair enough, but we've got some people on here feigning upset that the service isn't as fast as the train and some people worried that a bi-hourly service taking up to 1h40 is going to threaten the long established train service. Amazing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You aren't seriously trying to say they aren't attempting to compete with the train? They are even offering Railcard discounts, which I don't think they offer on other routes. If they just ran between Glossop station and Sheffield you would have the same journey opportunities with the minor exception of Hollingworth, and even from there there are already adequate buses to Glossop, Stalybridge and Ashton where you can connect onto trains or trams.

The railcard offer is a gimmick. Do you honestly think any commuter is going to spend an extra 40 minutes on a bus (each way) to save a bit of money? Who else? Senior and disabled passengers will have ENCTS passes anyway, and there are student fares as well. So what market does the railcard go for.... those between 18-30 who aren't students and might have a railcard? If they are targeting the train, it's pretty niche so the headline is more important than the reality.

As for the "people can always change at Glossop" argument, why would people want to travel by train from Manchester to Glossop, get off and then onto a bus so they can go walking from Snake Pass? A direct bus is much more convenient and it's a journey that people can't make currently so it won't be abstracting trade from the Glossop line anyway.

Ultimately, we will see if there is a market that they can develop and exploit. I'm doubtful but I'm pleased to see a business taking a bold commercial decision. However, any abstraction from the Glossop line..... minimal. This venture will live or die on its own merits, and the financial implications lie with the operator in the main.

Reading the T&C's nothing specifically is mentioned about 'new' routes but I am told by friends at other companies that you can indeed gain grant towards new routes - so I am actively looking into this for our new route that started 2 weeks ago. It would certainly be a financial help towards many operators to start new services to attract more people to public transport... I'll try and report back in the future.

There is, of course, separate funding for the restoration of services lost through austerity. Roger French reports on that with services now being supported in Oxfordshire.

 

[Ianno87]

As for the "people can always change at Glossop" argument, why would people want to travel by train from Manchester to Glossop, get off and then onto a bus so they can go walking from Snake Pass? A direct bus is much more convenient and it's a journey that people can't make currently so it won't be abstracting trade from the Glossop line anyway.

Doubt many people would do it. But it's a decent alternative, particularly if you're somewhere where it's a bit of a faff to reach Chorlton Street.

And it reduces the bus element of the trip to a less bum-numbing 45 minutes or so, with a brief stretcg of legs at Glossopm

 

[KendalKing]

Regardless of whose money it is, it costs money to run the service. This is a kamikaze route so when the service is withdrawn in a few months time, that money will have been shown to be wasted. Plus it takes money away from the railway, which we are all paying for. I don't see how we will be better off at that point once the service has ended.

Please explain, how it will be taking money away from the Railway?, as it is a bus service, that will be serving points along the route, which the Railway doesn't serve.

 

[geoffk]

Certainly an interesting development to me as a former Sheffield resident and GMPTE employee. Not both at the same time I hasten to add. I dimly remember the SJOC 39 service. From 1960, it ran through to Manchester only on summer weekends, and stopped running beyond the Snake Inn altogether after the 1967 season, when I was a student, but never managed to ride on it. A brave initiative to reinstate this route after so many years and at such a difficult time, but we'll have to see. Perhaps they should run through to Meadowhall as someone I know who lives at Glossop goes there shopping!

 

[Robertj21a]

Why do you think other countries don't allow it? If it is so obviously right, then there would be no debate about it.

I didn't know about the availability of grants for such services, that seems really wrong. I knew there was a bailout to keep existing buses on the road while no one is travelling, but this does seem a very inappropriate use of taxpayers' money, especially when routes have been cut so severely in many areas.

It appears that you may not be aware that foreign countries operate to different legal arrangements when it comes to providing bus/train services. You can't compare the UK with, say, Germany or Switzerland.

 

[chessie]

I don't know it its a subsidised thing but you can currently alternate between bus and train along the Sheffield - Castleton corridor anyway, bus ticket being valid on the train to/from Hope and train ticket being valid to/from Castleton, which might explain the railcard option.

I doubted the launch of the X70 last winter and I don't know if its increased overall passenger numbers between Bakewell - Chesterfield especially during current times but it seems well loaded when it passes my house, equally the X71 between Sheffield - Alton Towers also seems to be doing well, I have even witnessed a duplicate bus operating on at least one Sunday.

Hope this goes well for them

 

[Mwanesh]

The bus and train work together and should be a matter of choice what you want to use. My missus does not use trains she finds them intimidating. She travels by coach she is guaranteed a seat. I dont see the argument of the bus taking passengers from the train.

 

[Ianno87]

The bus and train work together and should be a matter of choice what you want to use. My missus does not use trains she finds them intimidating. She travels by coach she is guaranteed a seat. I dont see the argument of the bus taking passengera from the train.

Bus and trains are indeed often different markets - the bus is likely to be generally taking people who may not have travelled at all otherwise.

 

[chessie]

I suppose we are very lucky here then, bus and trains are very integrated and well covered on one ticket!

 

[Boo_]

ok look at it this way. Manchester to Oldham buses take far longer then the tram at peak but people still get the bus. I am lazy I would get the bus over the train even if fare same if the bus stop is closer to places I need to goto. Trains have issues far more then buses

Train
Season ticket prices
Manchester to Glossop. £30.20
Manchester to Sheffield. £81.19 (slow) (£98.50 (any)
Glossop to Sheffield £100.20

Bus
Week Hopper (Best value)
Our Week Hopper ticket is a customer favourite. Unlimited travel on our entire network for seven days for just £21.00.

 

[riceuten]

So, likely to be something like

Hulleys of Baslow 3 SN55HTD on layover at Sheffield Interchange

Ex Bournemouth Yellow Buses as 512. New to Manchester Airport for car park shuttle work.

www.flickr.com

 

[LOL The Irony]

So, likely to be something like

Hulleys of Baslow 3 SN55HTD on layover at Sheffield Interchange

Ex Bournemouth Yellow Buses as 512. New to Manchester Airport for car park shuttle work.

www.flickr.com

If you're going to run an hour and a half service, at least use a bus with high backed seats.

isn't they alot of issues and delays and OVERcrowding on the trains around Manchester area, which includes a viaduct needing to be doubled in size?

That's Castlefield, which only really affects the EMR services as Northern and TPE services heading that way use the trainshed at Piccadilly.

 

[Boo_]

Am sure if they found the route working they would look at buses for the route. I don`t think there be lots of people doing the full route but it be more a gateway to the peaks or for the peaks to get to the city.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

ok look at it this way. Manchester to Oldham buses take far longer then the tram at peak but people still get the bus. I am lazy I would get the bus over the train even if fare same if the bus stop is closer to places I need to goto. Trains have issues far more then buses

Train
Season ticket prices
Manchester to Glossop. £30.20
Manchester to Sheffield. £81.19 (slow) (£98.50 (any)
Glossop to Sheffield £100.20

Bus
Week Hopper (Best value)
Our Week Hopper ticket is a customer favourite. Unlimited travel on our entire network for seven days for just £21.00.

At the risk of going off topic, Oldham to Manchester has been massively impacted by the trams. For most people, tram has replaced the bus but if the bus stop is at your road end vs. the tram stop being half a mile away, then you may well keep getting the bus.

It's the same in this instance, albeit in reverse. If you live in Glossop then you will get the train. If you live in Hollingworth, you could continue to travel on the bus to Stalybridge and get the train but how many actually do that? I suspect not that many.

So, likely to be something like

Hulleys of Baslow 3 SN55HTD on layover at Sheffield Interchange

Ex Bournemouth Yellow Buses as 512. New to Manchester Airport for car park shuttle work.

www.flickr.com

Surely it would be one of their Tempos or Eclipse?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Wonderful news, but that's going to be a very slow through journey for Sundays (via both Fairholmes and Bamford station).

Slightly surprised at mention of the Hallamshire Hospital, as the A57 services have traditionally gone via Western Bank/ Witham Road - but maybe the idea is to run via Glossop Road to use the same stops as the 271 (so that all daytime services towards Bamford go the same way out of Sheffield)? Or it's still going via Western Bank and they've only shown the Hallamshire on the map because it's bigger than the Children's/ Weston Park Hospitals?

This is after Hulleys introduced a service from Sheffield to Alton Towers - so they are at least trying to find new markets (as the tendered services in Derbyshire dry up, and other operators retrench)

If this new X57 is any good hopefully Hulley's will run a few connections to link with it e.g. Glossop to Huddersfield.

I've had to drive over the Snake Pass in the middle of winter and I have to say it was quite nerve wracking! Is that route really suitable for a bus route? Surely the A628 through Stocksbridge would be a better route?

The old 473, operated by TM Travel, that use to run between Glossop and Chatsworth ran via Snake - even in winter.

 

[Robertj21a]

At the risk of going off topic, Oldham to Manchester has been massively impacted by the trams. For most people, tram has replaced the bus but if the bus stop is at your road end vs. the tram stop being half a mile away, then you may well keep getting the bus.

It's the same in this instance, albeit in reverse. If you live in Glossop then you will get the train. If you live in Hollingworth, you could continue to travel on the bus to Stalybridge and get the train but how many actually do that? I suspect not that many.



Surely it would be one of their Tempos or Eclipse?

Yes, it should be normally.

 

[radamfi]

At the risk of going off topic, Oldham to Manchester has been massively impacted by the trams. For most people, tram has replaced the bus but if the bus stop is at your road end vs. the tram stop being half a mile away, then you may well keep getting the bus.

It's the same in this instance, albeit in reverse. If you live in Glossop then you will get the train. If you live in Hollingworth, you could continue to travel on the bus to Stalybridge and get the train but how many actually do that? I suspect not that many.

The fare system dictates that people will generally stay on the same mode of transport if they can. Bus only tickets and train only tickets in GM are cheaper than bus+train and bus+tram tickets. Weird, though, that if you get the train from Glossop to Manchester, it costs less than travelling from Hollingworth to Manchester by train most of the way, even though from Glossop you are travelling for longer distance on a faster mode of transport. I don't see how that encourages people to make the best use of the available transport system if people are discouraged from changing simply because of the fare.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The fare system dictates that people will generally stay on the same mode of transport if they can. Bus only tickets and train only tickets in GM are cheaper than bus+train and bus+tram tickets. Weird, though, that if you get the train from Glossop to Manchester, it costs less than travelling from Hollingworth to Manchester by train most of the way, even though from Glossop you are travelling for longer distance on a faster mode of transport. I don't see how that encourages people to make the best use of the available transport system if people are discouraged from changing simply because of the fare.

Even if there was no price penalty, people still don't wish to change if they don't have to. This is especially true on relatively short journeys where the sheer act of changing erodes any time benefits.

Manchester to Hollingworth is scheduled at 30 mins direct whereas by rail, it's 31 at best and nearer 45-50 mins through the day. A direct service is more attractive than a two mode one (and a wait outside Stalybridge station).

 

[radamfi]

Even if there was no price penalty, people still don't wish to change if they don't have to. This is especially true on relatively short journeys where the sheer act of changing erodes any time benefits.

Manchester to Hollingworth is scheduled at 30 mins direct whereas by rail, it's 31 at best and nearer 45-50 mins through the day. A direct service is more attractive than a two mode one (and a wait outside Stalybridge station).

I mean the regular bus from Manchester to Hollingworth, which takes a lot longer than 30 minutes. This new service is only every two hours, and is only likely to last as long as it gets the pandemic subsidy.

 

[Killingworth]

Hulley's are a small firm who know their patch, and yet launching at this time of year in a pandemic is brave.

The Snake Pass turnpike was a financial disaster for both the operating trust and stage coach operators, and only became a little busier when the motor car and charabancs arrived. Last few times I've passed the Snake Inn it was closed and on the market.

I find it an enjoyable drive, but passengers aren't always so thrilled by all the twists, turns and sudden undulations from where the road frequently subsides. It should be an interesting journey for tourists and to save a little on rail fares. One to watch.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I mean the regular bus from Manchester to Hollingworth, which takes a lot longer than 30 minutes. This new service is only every two hours, and is only likely to last as long as it gets the pandemic subsidy.

Is it getting any CSSBG subsidy?

 

[radamfi]

Is it getting any CSSBG subsidy?

I thought that was mentioned earlier, but maybe I got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[philthetube]

It isn't like that because the actions being discussed have knock on consequences. If it was so clear cut, you would be able to run a bus service wherever you wanted. But in most places outside Britain, it isn't allowed. Or at least you would need to get permission. It is allowed in Britain outside London, but that doesn't make it right.

I do agree with everything you say, my main pint, possibly not made very well, is that it seemed to be expected that the operator should spend his cash on other services regardless of whether he wants to.

 

[GusB]

I have absolutely no knowledge of Hulley's, nor the geographical area which they serve. I'm willing to surmise that they've probably done their sums and perhaps done a little bit of market research which has led them to conclude that it might just be worth a punt. There must be something in it for an independent operator to stick their neck out and introduce a new service, especially in the post-Covid climate.

Running a business occasionally means taking risks. Sometimes it'll work, other times it won't. As long as they've factored in the likelihood of failure and how it impacts on the rest of their operations, I don't really see a problem.

 

[Boo_]

I don`t see a risk so long as they get locals using the bus also. I don`t think they are going to find many from Manchester as it not using a Bus station or being seen on bus stop flags in the centre. even TP don`t run anymore and I feel it down to not being known in Manchester due to poor pickup point.

On other note it not every 2 hours for most of the route but every hour.

 

[philthetube]

I will have a trip on it sometime, and, as a 62 year old I will be using my railcard.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I think the bottom line is it gives passengers a choice of options, it may suit some people more than others to use the bus, other people may stick to the train. Good on them for being entrepreneurial in these difficult times.