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Hulley's of Baslow

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1 Jul 2024
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78
Location
Derbyshire Dales
Tracking: GPS no problem, mostly, as long as the sky's there. Getting message reports back to whatever looks for the bus, well, it's Derbyshire. Generally phones don't work very well... EE works here, BT there, but seldom the twain (nor the bus) shall meet. And older vehicles with 2G comms will find dwindling places that can connect.
 
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Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
Messages
705
Tracking: GPS no problem, mostly, as long as the sky's there. Getting message reports back to whatever looks for the bus, well, it's Derbyshire. Generally phones don't work very well... EE works here, BT there, but seldom the twain (nor the bus) shall meet. And older vehicles with 2G comms will find dwindling places that can connect.
The reason I think it's most likely GPS is that the single deckers don't seem to have the same issues, so I'm guessing the lower cab roof of the E400s is limiting the view of the sky the antenna gets. You need line of sight to a minimum number of satellites to get a fix, and maybe they just can't see enough.

There are blackspots, but in general coverage is fairly solid. Oh, and BT have owned EE for quite some time, and both networks run on the same cell towers. Only difference is BT don't offer 5G or eSIMs, neither of which is massively relevant here.
 

ACBest

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30 Aug 2011
Messages
256
Location
Lincoln
For Ticketer machines, which Hulleys use, the touch screen module of the ticket machine (which is a tablet on newer models) is what houses the GPS antenna.

It’s highly unlikely to be because of the type of vehicle.

It seems most likely to me that either a) the ticket machine is faulty, and hasn’t been sent off for repair or b) something else on the bus which uses GPS is interfering with the GPS signal to the ticket machine. I dealt with a vehicle last year which had a ticket machine that wasn’t tracking - it turned out that the GPS signal to the antenna attached to the CCTV system was interfering with GPS signal to the ticket machine. Why it only affected that one vehicle, I don’t know.
 

Cesarcollie

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5 Jun 2016
Messages
670
For Ticketer machines, which Hulleys use, the touch screen module of the ticket machine (which is a tablet on newer models) is what houses the GPS antenna.

It’s highly unlikely to be because of the type of vehicle.

It seems most likely to me that either a) the ticket machine is faulty, and hasn’t been sent off for repair or b) something else on the bus which uses GPS is interfering with the GPS signal to the ticket machine. I dealt with a vehicle last year which had a ticket machine that wasn’t tracking - it turned out that the GPS signal to the antenna attached to the CCTV system was interfering with GPS signal to the ticket machine. Why it only affected that one vehicle, I don’t know.

I think Hulleys use Transmach? But otherwise the details are similar.
 

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
Messages
705
It’s highly unlikely to be because of the type of vehicle.
The only problem with that theory is that only the E400s suffer this, and they have all experienced it to one degree or another.

It could as you say be some other system on the E400 rather than it being field of view, or it could be they somehow get the bad machines by chance.

A small operator is less likely to have access to someone with the technical knowledge to troubleshoot this sort of problem unfortunately.
 

Cesarcollie

Member
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5 Jun 2016
Messages
670
The only problem with that theory is that only the E400s suffer this, and they have all experienced it to one degree or another.

It could as you say be some other system on the E400 rather than it being field of view, or it could be they somehow get the bad machines by chance.

A small operator is less likely to have access to someone with the technical knowledge to troubleshoot this sort of problem unfortunately.

There is no ‘aerial placement’ with Ticketer. The baseplate is wired into the electrics via the front dash surround, and the machines mount onto the baseplate. End of!

Hulley's haven't used Transmach for quite some time now.
Apologies!
 

IamTrainsYT

Member
Joined
8 Dec 2018
Messages
1,100
Location
Manchester
There is no ‘aerial placement’ with Ticketer.
Anything that sends or receives a signal has an antenna, usually just a tin foil looking square built inside the device…

A lot of the E400s electrics run above the cab, namely a lot of CCTV equipment in the panel at the top of the stairs. A lot of ex london buses seem to have big flat antennas on the roof for the radio system as well which would probably do a good job at interfering with the ticket machines.

Unfortunately though, despite all the speculation, the answer is a little less interesting. There are currently 2 ticket machines with tracking issues that I believe are waiting for others to come back from repair at ticketer with the same problems.

22 ended up with the ticket machine out of 3 which was one of the dodgy ones so its more of a coincidence than anything else! Although I do believe 3 had always been quite patchy with its tracking no matter what machine was used. Which is odd as sister vehicle 5 has no trouble
 

Teapot42

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2022
Messages
705
There seems to be a bus from Newbury on the 257 today. I've not seen this before, is it new (to Hulleys)?
If you mean the Streetlite, it's been on loan for a few weeks now, from Bus Link. I believe they bought a few for a contract which has been delayed so have loaned this one to Hulleys.
 

Mwanesh

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Joined
14 May 2016
Messages
886
Has the 170 or 55 ever been officially routed via Piccadilly Road? Theres certainly no bus stop on Piccadilly and I have never seen either route advertised as serving this area on any public timetable eg at a bus stop or on the Derbyshire website

Incorrectly or not I have always assumed they use this route as the quickest route to the train station/hospital in one direction to avoid traffic in the other
I am sure the 78 used to go that way around 2015.I lived around Wain Avenue that time.I will look for my North East Derbyshire booklet in my bus box
 

Poiuytre

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Joined
26 Dec 2020
Messages
29
Location
Bristol
This thread reminds me of Western Greyhound in respect of they were both highly regarded at one point. Where did Hulleys problems start. Was it when the present owner acquired the business of were some of the problems inherited?
 

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
Messages
705
This thread reminds me of Western Greyhound in respect of they were both highly regarded at one point. Where did Hulleys problems start. Was it when the present owner acquired the business of were some of the problems inherited?
I think you'll get 1001 opinions on this!

From my perspective, Hulleys were a competent, unambitious operator prior to the current owner taking over. They mainly focused on tendered work in the Peak District, with only a few commercial services. They were known for well presented vehicles, friendly staff and efficient operations, plus there was a small coach operation.

My understanding - and I'm happy to be corrected on this - is that the current owner got involved on the operations side about a year or so prior to buying the company outright. I believe he was behind the X70 fast Chesterfield to Bakewell service.

Things looked promising when he took over. Ambitious new services started, picking up services that Stagecoach didn't want any more in the Chesterfield area, new vehicles, retro liveries. All seemed positive.

I'm not sure if Covid was the catalyst, or just hid some of the problems behind his approach, but it started to become evident that he was working things too hard. Timetables with no slack or recovery time, indeed timings which simply weren't possible. Optimistic assumptions of passenger numbers - although the failure to meet these may be linked with the timetabling issues.

Of course issues such as driver shortages (which did for the X1), roadworks (one of the factors for the withdrawal of the 80) and unreliability of the older vehicles (their current main problem) have been factors. Some of these are hard to account for, others maybe could have been avoided or mitigated with better planning.

I'm unclear what impact the take-over of Go Coach had. It always seemed an odd move, maybe it helped in the short term but masked bigger problems developing. It's only since this was unwound that things have really seemed to get bad. Even ignoring the PI, the current inability to deal with the shortage of buses seems odd and concerning. Things have improved recently as they've been able to get 2 or 3 fixed up, but they are still short of what is needed to run a full service, never mind having any spare to cover for breakdowns.

There was clearly an intent to grow the business from what it was. Whether they would still be around had nothing changed is debatable. The intent was good, maybe the execution was lacking, maybe it was just circumstances. It was refreshing to see someone prepared to try things, compared to other local operators who just scale things back or go begging to the council for subsidy if services aren't paying their way. Possibly with guidance from someone more experienced at running a bus company things might have worked out. As for the future, the next few weeks will be telling I think. If they can stabilise vehicle availability and fix the issues the TC raised then hopefully a period of consolidation will secure things for the future.
 

Trainman40083

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29 Jan 2024
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2,313
Location
Derby
I think you'll get 1001 opinions on this!

From my perspective, Hulleys were a competent, unambitious operator prior to the current owner taking over. They mainly focused on tendered work in the Peak District, with only a few commercial services. They were known for well presented vehicles, friendly staff and efficient operations, plus there was a small coach operation.

My understanding - and I'm happy to be corrected on this - is that the current owner got involved on the operations side about a year or so prior to buying the company outright. I believe he was behind the X70 fast Chesterfield to Bakewell service.

Things looked promising when he took over. Ambitious new services started, picking up services that Stagecoach didn't want any more in the Chesterfield area, new vehicles, retro liveries. All seemed positive.

I'm not sure if Covid was the catalyst, or just hid some of the problems behind his approach, but it started to become evident that he was working things too hard. Timetables with no slack or recovery time, indeed timings which simply weren't possible. Optimistic assumptions of passenger numbers - although the failure to meet these may be linked with the timetabling issues.

Of course issues such as driver shortages (which did for the X1), roadworks (one of the factors for the withdrawal of the 80) and unreliability of the older vehicles (their current main problem) have been factors. Some of these are hard to account for, others maybe could have been avoided or mitigated with better planning.

I'm unclear what impact the take-over of Go Coach had. It always seemed an odd move, maybe it helped in the short term but masked bigger problems developing. It's only since this was unwound that things have really seemed to get bad. Even ignoring the PI, the current inability to deal with the shortage of buses seems odd and concerning. Things have improved recently as they've been able to get 2 or 3 fixed up, but they are still short of what is needed to run a full service, never mind having any spare to cover for breakdowns.

There was clearly an intent to grow the business from what it was. Whether they would still be around had nothing changed is debatable. The intent was good, maybe the execution was lacking, maybe it was just circumstances. It was refreshing to see someone prepared to try things, compared to other local operators who just scale things back or go begging to the council for subsidy if services aren't paying their way. Possibly with guidance from someone more experienced at running a bus company things might have worked out. As for the future, the next few weeks will be telling I think. If they can stabilise vehicle availability and fix the issues the TC raised then hopefully a period of consolidation will secure things for the future.
I think COVID had a major effect, more than a lot of people think (and across many businesses)
 

Goldfish62

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14 Feb 2010
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11,702
I think COVID had a major effect, more than a lot of people think (and across many businesses)
Tripple whammies of Brexit, Covid and rampant inflation caused by the Ukraine war in quick succession. I'm actually (pleasantly) surprised far more bus operators haven't gone under.
 

Trainman40083

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Tripple whammies of Brexit, Covid and rampant inflation caused by the Ukraine war in quick succession. I'm actually (pleasantly) surprised far more bus operators haven't gone under.
The bus industry will be very similar to the rail industry. I'd wager that few bus companies have passenger numbers higher than say, 80% to 90% of pre COVID numbers. Maybe the revenue from those passengers is also less.
It is well known that ENCTS remuneration is low. The remuneration from the £2 , now £3 fare is probably seeing revenue below 2020 levels. People working from home, spending their free time "differently" all play a part, but no doubt costs have risen. Add in less available work force (maybe more employers fighting for the same staff) will see costs rising, faster than revenue. Great case of a business "sweating the assets and playing the cards they have been dealt". It is not ideal. But the real problem across many businesses has not yet been identified.
 

SLC001

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13 Jan 2022
Messages
161
Location
Northampton
Some buses are still not running but I get the feeling that the disgruntled passengers are cottoning on to the fact that the local councils are not the bodies to complain to. When they do, the response is along the lines of we can do nothing and if we stopped funding, Hulleys will simply not operate the full service. Councils then take the easy option and in this case do not escalate the issue by talking to the Traffic Commissioner, a trend in under resourced local government that is now so prevalent. No-one takes responsibility.
Fortunately, complaints and records of poor time keeping are now directed by irate passengers towards the Traffic Commissioner and the DVSA and they do have teeth. So the PI in just under 13 weeks could be critical in determining Hulleys future.
I think the possible causes have been well enunciated here and I don't suppose the increases in NI helps either. What is regrettable, is the failure to communicate service issues to the public via Facebook or X, notwithstanding the problems with real time tracking.
 

Trainman40083

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Derby
Some buses are still not running but I get the feeling that the disgruntled passengers are cottoning on to the fact that the local councils are not the bodies to complain to. When they do, the response is along the lines of we can do nothing and if we stopped funding, Hulleys will simply not operate the full service. Councils then take the easy option and in this case do not escalate the issue by talking to the Traffic Commissioner, a trend in under resourced local government that is now so prevalent. No-one takes responsibility.
Fortunately, complaints and records of poor time keeping are now directed by irate passengers towards the Traffic Commissioner and the DVSA and they do have teeth. So the PI in just under 13 weeks could be critical in determining Hulleys future.
I think the possible causes have been well enunciated here and I don't suppose the increases in NI helps either. What is regrettable, is the failure to communicate service issues to the public via Facebook or X, notwithstanding the problems with real time tracking.
I don't think the changes to NI have kicked in yet, but I suspect it may cause a cost add on of around £800 per employee... Many, many businesses across many sectors will not be able to stand that The communication issues seem to be down to one person leaving, but if the buses all tracked, maybe they would not be needed. . As you say, irate passengers have bypassed the Council. Indeed in some areas, MPs have been sent letters (and they ignored them too). So the irate passengers raise the stakes as you have stated. But think on, say Hulleys got taken off the road.. Would those who replaced them be any better, or would the same issues remain? Maybe buses need to be better funded.
 

YX73OUB

Member
Joined
24 Jul 2024
Messages
164
Location
East Midlands
Some excellent posts here on this today and I've enjoyed reading people's insights.

I don't claim to be clued up but have been watching the situation at Hulleys with great interest.

Did they hire a second transport manager in the end? I didn't see it advertised anywhere. Just thinking that this persons responsibility could be communications too which is what they seem to be struggling with?
 

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
Messages
705
The communication issues seem to be down to one person leaving
Just for clarity, it was mentioned earlier in the thread that Matt Swales had left Hulleys. I'm told this is incorrect - he just stepped down as a Director.
, but if the buses all tracked, maybe they would not be needed.
It's interesting. Stagecoach seldom communicate issues in Chesterfield. Not all their buses track either. They do drop services - not as high a proportion, but some. They seem to attract little if any ire.
But think on, say Hulleys got taken off the road.. Would those who replaced them be any better, or would the same issues remain? Maybe buses need to be better funded.
This is a point I've made a few times, but in a slightly different way. They'd most likely be replaced by Stagecoach, with the few services not already tendered becoming so. One of the Wellglade companies, or High Peak, might take the odd one. Either way, the cost to the council is going to higher. As DCC are already short of funds I would imagine this would lead to some services (not necessarily the Hulleys ones) being cut to free up money to keep the communities served. Frequencies would likely drop and possibly less evening provision.

You may well end up with no more buses than are being operated now, possibly fewer. They would likely be more reliable, but if the frequency isn't there it's likely passenger numbers will fall further.
 

Trainman40083

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Just for clarity, it was mentioned earlier in the thread that Matt Swales had left Hulleys. I'm told this is incorrect - he just stepped down as a Director.

It's interesting. Stagecoach seldom communicate issues in Chesterfield. Not all their buses track either. They do drop services - not as high a proportion, but some. They seem to attract little if any ire.

This is a point I've made a few times, but in a slightly different way. They'd most likely be replaced by Stagecoach, with the few services not already tendered becoming so. One of the Wellglade companies, or High Peak, might take the odd one. Either way, the cost to the council is going to higher. As DCC are already short of funds I would imagine this would lead to some services (not necessarily the Hulleys ones) being cut to free up money to keep the communities served. Frequencies would likely drop and possibly less evening provision.

You may well end up with no more buses than are being operated now, possibly fewer. They would likely be more reliable, but if the frequency isn't there it's likely passenger numbers will fall further.
A very good response. Now I thought someone mentioned a lady leaving that covered communications. But before I even think about using any bus, I want to know "Is it running? Is it cancelled?". Not tracking is a real wildcard, that would almost certainly mean I'd just do something else, that doesn't involve the bus or my car. Now you mentioned Stagecoach in Chesterfield. I can't say I follow them, but presume their services are more frequent, so the issues less seen "Oh tell the customers the bus has been held up in traffic, they won't know it missed out". The real killer is it will cost the Council more, and for less, so they are probably trying to work with what they have. Yes the Council is short of money, and would, ideally like bus services to pay for themselves. I suspect they might chuck all the tendered services in the air and see what comes up. The 272 might be run totally by First. Maybe the 170 and 55 by Stagecoach. Some by High Peak, who I understand are short of buses. Wellglade could work some services from Matlock garage (but no more than 3 buses). I guess the wildcard would be say Notts and Derby running the 110/111/113/114/172, maybe utilising Derby, Ashbourne, Matlock and Belper depots. That might allow High Peak to run more services around Bakewell. But, all in all, I still think helping Hulleys through is the best outcome. Now, if anyone has ideas of how to double fare paying passengers to increase revenue to set against increased cost, with a lesser Council/Government subsidy, you might be onto a winner (and probably on a different thread)...
 

Trainman40083

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Industry-specific costs have been rising at at least double the rate of general inflation. At one stage industry-specific inflation was estimated to be around 25%.
Exactly..So, say the Council limited cost increases to RPI/CPI.. It isn't like Council Tax will go up 25% to cover tendered bus services. So, how do you expand the gap between costs and revenue? You sweat your assets and pray. You get the most productive effort out of your workforce. Maybe you cut corners (by that I mean you cut out what need not necessarily needs to be done now, delay investment. But then breakdowns increase, unforeseen things happen).
 

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
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A very good response. Now I thought someone mentioned a lady leaving that covered communications.
My understanding is that Matt's partner was doing communications, but is on maternity leave. I believe Matt was doing comms himself, but I'm not 100% on that. None of that is confirmed however, it's just bits I've picked up here and there which may or may not be correct.

But before I even think about using any bus, I want to know "Is it running? Is it cancelled?". Not tracking is a real wildcard, that would almost certainly mean I'd just do something else, that doesn't involve the bus or my car.
That's fine if you are starting a journey, not so much if you are on the return and need to change buses.

As an example, my wife was coming back from Sheffield the other week. The 90 she'd connect in to wasn't tracking, and as this was in the evening if it wasn't running then the next bus meant over an hour wait at New Beetwell Street - hardly somewhere you want a lone woman hanging around after dark. As it turned out the 90 was running

Now you mentioned Stagecoach in Chesterfield. I can't say I follow them, but presume their services are more frequent, so the issues less seen "Oh tell the customers the bus has been held up in traffic, they won't know it missed out".
Most are more frequent, but some aren't that often and some drop to low frequencies quite early in the evening peak. There are some working (for instance the X17 via Matlock Farm Park) which only run a couple of times a day. Stagecoach Yorkshire do post regular updates for most depots, just not Chesterfield.

The real killer is it will cost the Council more, and for less, so they are probably trying to work with what they have. Yes the Council is short of money, and would, ideally like bus services to pay for themselves.
They've been spraying BSIP cash around without much planning. Plenty given to Stagecoach for services that could well have been commercially operated for example. Why pay for the Peak Sightseer to run to Christmas Eve in the first year for heaven sake?

I suspect they might chuck all the tendered services in the air and see what comes up.
First do run all 272s in the evening and on Sunday, but I believe both have subsidy. Not sure if it's from DCC or Sheffield. Whether they could make an hourly daytime commercial service work is another question.

While they can be operated by larger buses, things like the 110/1, 172 and 173 are best run with something like a Solo. Not that many of those around, although Wellglade seem to have a few.

The real problem is that rather than having the re-think the network needs, the current provision will just get rolled over in to new contracts.

But, all in all, I still think helping Hulleys through is the best outcome.
True, but I suspect that unless someone comes in with the necessary experience - and is listened to - then the problems might just repeat in a few years.
 

Trainman40083

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My understanding is that Matt's partner was doing communications, but is on maternity leave. I believe Matt was doing comms himself, but I'm not 100% on that. None of that is confirmed however, it's just bits I've picked up here and there which may or may not be correct.


That's fine if you are starting a journey, not so much if you are on the return and need to change buses.

As an example, my wife was coming back from Sheffield the other week. The 90 she'd connect in to wasn't tracking, and as this was in the evening if it wasn't running then the next bus meant over an hour wait at New Beetwell Street - hardly somewhere you want a lone woman hanging around after dark. As it turned out the 90 was running


Most are more frequent, but some aren't that often and some drop to low frequencies quite early in the evening peak. There are some working (for instance the X17 via Matlock Farm Park) which only run a couple of times a day. Stagecoach Yorkshire do post regular updates for most depots, just not Chesterfield.


They've been spraying BSIP cash around without much planning. Plenty given to Stagecoach for services that could well have been commercially operated for example. Why pay for the Peak Sightseer to run to Christmas Eve in the first year for heaven sake?


First do run all 272s in the evening and on Sunday, but I believe both have subsidy. Not sure if it's from DCC or Sheffield. Whether they could make an hourly daytime commercial service work is another question.

While they can be operated by larger buses, things like the 110/1, 172 and 173 are best run with something like a Solo. Not that many of those around, although Wellglade seem to have a few.

The real problem is that rather than having the re-think the network needs, the current provision will just get rolled over in to new contracts.


True, but I suspect that unless someone comes in with the necessary experience - and is listened to - then the problems might just repeat in a few years.
I feel like I should say, relevant to Derbyshire "Has BSIP money so far spent, actually delivered an increase in long term revenue, or is it all being wasted?" Because without that increase, lesser services will fail, and few want that
 

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
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705
I feel like I should say, relevant to Derbyshire "Has BSIP money so far spent, actually delivered an increase in long term revenue, or is it all being wasted?" Because without that increase, lesser services will fail, and few want that
It's an interesting question. I'd counter to ask if revenue is important here - Stagecoach seem to take the view that each trip has to stand on its own merits, so BSIP might have led to one trip having an increase in revenue, but that means nothing to another trip where the costs have risen beyond what it takes. They are still likely to pull the loss-making trip, even if overall revenue is up. (*)

You could argue that increased profitability on certain trips might mean a company is more able to renew their fleet, leading to lower operating costs overall if the newer buses are more fuel efficient. It's hard to perform that test here since Stagecoach also got ZEBRA 2 money meaning it's hard to get a direct insight in to how the fleet would have been upgraded otherwise.

A better measure might be whether provision has improved. Certainly some money has been spent better than other. For example, the 90 extension to Creswell might have given a limited improvement in connections, but at the expense of reliability at the other end of the route, especially during the driver shortages when Stagecoach were given money to run services they couldn't resource.

Along similar lines I'd argue that giving bus service improvement money to the Peak Sightseer is outwith the point of the scheme, as this isn't a bus service, it's a tourist experience. It does not provide any new journey opportunities and as it does not accept ENCTS or other passes it would not be used by anyone as a means of transport. I can see justification in funding it to improve the tourist experience in the area and bringing in more tax revenue from increasing visitor numbers, but using money supposedly ring-fenced for improves bus services is arguable abuse of the scheme.

The BSIP money that went to Hulleys seems mainly to have been to fund evening provision on the 55 and 170, something which has been notably absent. There was also an evening 257 which ran briefly before it was pulled due to resourcing issues. I think in the main, Hulleys haven't been in a position to take advantage of BSIP funding as much as other operators. However, as mentioned above there has also been a disconnect between what the council try to spend the money on, and what can be resourced. There seems to have been no real well thought-through plan to manage new service introductions against overall resourced within the sector. Just because one operator can tempt enough drivers away from others to run a service doesn't make it sustainable.

(*) I guess this is the main problem with privatised public transport - it's hard to argue that a private business should expect to make a profit on everything they do, but counter to that the interests of the public don't always align with profitability.
 

tocguard

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16 Nov 2014
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Derbyshire
BSIP has not been well managed by DCC at all. For example, out of the 55 and 170, which route covers greater population areas? The 55. So why on earth is that only funded to be 2 hourly (1 bus) in the evening but bizarrely they are paying for an hourly 170 (2 buses)? The funding for the additional bus working on the 170 could have been put into ad hoc evening journeys to better connect the routes with poor daytime services. When a route only runs 2 hourly or less, and finish by 5/6pm, a lot of people simply won't bother. If there is a later journey option of some sort, it potentially boosts the services patronage earlier on. Don't forget some of the Hulleys area routes, 172, 178 used to have evening services for decades until the council funding cutbacks around 15 years ago. BSIP would have been a great opportunity to provide some evening services to those routes that used to have them even if it was only on a tendered basis of Fri/Sat evenings where there is a greater chance of being used.
 

derbybusdepot

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17 Dec 2015
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209
I think the very loose idea was to provide a more comprehensive service including evening/Sundays in the hope that it lifts overall passenger usage on the routes, by providing short term funding which could be removed/reduced going forward if the service proves viable. Obviously that is unlikely in some/many cases.

Whilst I agree it could be seen as a waste funding peak sightseer, I believe the red route was operated commercially last season, so could be seen as a success.
 

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