Huntingdon to Woodwalton Four Tracking

[NeroWolfe]

I know there has been passing mention of this in other threads ('£1.8 billion ETCS King's Cross to Peterborough' and 'Werrington grade separation approved').

A proposal to reinstate the fourth track between Woodwalton and Huntingdon (see NR link for details).

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...nline-route-upgrade/huntingdon-to-woodwalton/

Perhaps some members can help with the history of why it was removed. Considering that this is the main north / south route it is a surprising decision.

I’m interested in:

• was the track taken out of service prior to being removed
• what date did this happen
• if only one track had to go why was the slow up chosen

Any other information?

As there will always (probably) be the Welwyn two track section as the limiting factor, would this Project make that much difference in number of journeys?

I see there has been a recent reference to postponing the Project - do we know how long for?

Thanks for any info.

 

[30907]

Removed at electrification IIRC - to satisfy the Treasury.

 

[Failed Unit]

Removed at electrification IIRC - to satisfy the Treasury.

Sort of. My understanding is the ground was unstable so using the track bed for the overhead was be best value solution. When you consider traffic was much lower then it could be argued that was the correct solution. I am sure the majority of network southeast traffic turned at Huntingdon.

One of the many decisions that probably was right at the time but if the crystal ball was working would have never have happened.

I wonder if March - Spalding and the Lincoln avoiding line stayed open if they would need the dive under at Werrington at all?

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have a dim recollection that the Up Slow had been ‘out of use’ for a while around the time that electrification was authorised, possibly after a freight derailment. This had demonstrated that the facility wasn’t greatly missed (given that there was still a loop at the north end).

So getting rid of it had the triple benefit of not having to spend money on reinstatement, not having to electrify it and reducing the cost/facilitating wiring of the remaining three tracks. This at a time when classic very slow short wheelbase freight wagons were rapidly disappearing anyway.

 

[Starmill]

As to why it was chosen - there were either no or almost no services to use it at the time I think? At the time for passengers there were only Intercity services? Did Network South East ever serve Peterborough?

 

[Failed Unit]

As to why it was chosen - there were either no or almost no services to use it at the time I think? At the time for passengers there were only Intercity services? Did Network South East ever serve Peterborough?

Yes. 1 train per hour in the late 1980s. The other and the peaks all terminated at Huntingdon. More IC services stopped then but not hourly. (Including from my youth the Cleethorpes - London).

 

[mr_jrt]

It's nice to see these sorts of projects, but how much benefit is there to be had whilst it's still a mix of 2 & 3 tracks north to Peterborough? I can kinda see why a 4 track section was left at Woodwalton to loop services, but there is a very long 2 track section from just past the Fletton loop to Holme. The three track sections either side are actually pretty short too - Holme to Church End (where the 4 track section to Woodwalton begins), and about 400m metres worth from the Fletton Loop to just north of the A1129.

 

[Ianno87]

It's nice to see these sorts of projects, but how much benefit is there to be had whilst it's still a mix of 2 & 3 tracks north to Peterborough? I can kinda see why a 4 track section was left at Woodwalton to loop services, but there is a very long 2 track section from just past the Fletton loop to Holme. The three track sections either side are actually pretty short too - Holme to Church End (where the 4 track section to Woodwalton begins), and about 400m metres worth from the Fletton Loop to just north of the A1129.

It just gets (say) a southbound freight path out of the way quite a few miles sooner than at Huntingdon to let the next express through. Never going to be a rip-roarer in terms of capacity generated (due to the remaining two track and other ECML constraints), but at least contributes to maybe an extra path or two an hour overall being possible.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I went to a meeting in the later end of the 1980's when it was seriously suggested to dequadrify Werrington Ct to Stoke Summit - reason being that the "prime user" was then Parcels , and as is well known - they hardly paid for anything directly. This was before the Norwich - Liverpool hourly was up and running , and was a precursor to saving even more costs on the electrification.

It may well have been a "testing the temeperature meeting" , but we were all so devastated at the idea , that following a tea break , it was voted down and savings sought elsewhere. Just as well as it happened.....

 

[TheBigD]

Prior to electrification the intermediate stations Peterborough to Hitchin had a very poor off peak service. Whilst in the peaks loco hauled commuter sets operated, off peak only a 2 hourly Hitchin - Huntingdon service operated.

Front memory the intercity service was basically hourly Edinburgh and Leeds with a few extra to /Newcastle/York/Hull/Cleethorpes.

 

[Steve Harris]

Prior to electrification the intermediate stations Peterborough to Hitchin had a very poor off peak service. Whilst in the peaks loco hauled commuter sets operated, off peak only a 2 hourly Hitchin - Huntingdon service operated.

That sounds about right. The Hitchin - Huntingdon used to be operated by a Cambridge allocated Class 101 DMU.

Although, I seem to think it used to operate a Hitchin - Peterborough service at weekends ??

 

[ac6000cw]

Also (as far as I remember) freight traffic on the ECML south of Peterborough was pretty sparse by the 1980s (it largely went via March, then on to Stratford (London) or the Ipswich area).

 

[Fred26]

I was told by an ex-guard there used to be a Huntingdon-Hertford North service.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was told by an ex-guard there used to be a Huntingdon-Hertford North service.

Correct.

Supplemented by a Huntingdon - London service via WGC.

I think it lasted into privatisation but once Hertford - London went every 20mins it stopped.

Understand Peterborough- London every 30 mins was a ORCATs raid on GNER.

 

[peterborough31]

That sounds about right. The Hitchin - Huntingdon used to be operated by a Cambridge allocated Class 101 DMU.

Although, I seem to think it used to operate a Hitchin - Peterborough service at weekends ??

Certainly operated Hitchin - Peterborough during the week every 2 hours. Used to travel Peterborough to Biggleswade on it in regularly back in 1984.

 

[peterborough31]

Correct.

Supplemented by a Huntingdon - London service via WGC.

I think it lasted into privatisation but once Hertford - London went every 20mins it stopped.

Understand Peterborough- London every 30 mins was a ORCATs raid on GNER.

Made very good business sense for Prism/WAGN offering a cheaper fare for a slightly longer journey time to KX. Especially to 160,000 potential new customers.

 

[Fred26]

Correct.

Supplemented by a Huntingdon - London service via WGC.

I think it lasted into privatisation but once Hertford - London went every 20mins it stopped.

Understand Peterborough- London every 30 mins was a ORCATs raid on GNER.

I believe it was also before there were through trains on the rest of the Hertford loop to Stevenage.

 

[Aictos]

It's nice to see these sorts of projects, but how much benefit is there to be had whilst it's still a mix of 2 & 3 tracks north to Peterborough? I can kinda see why a 4 track section was left at Woodwalton to loop services, but there is a very long 2 track section from just past the Fletton loop to Holme. The three track sections either side are actually pretty short too - Holme to Church End (where the 4 track section to Woodwalton begins), and about 400m metres worth from the Fletton Loop to just north of the A1129.

The reason for that two track section between Fletton and Holme is something called Stilton Fen which is unstable ground in much the same way that Ely to Kings Lynn is.

Very unlikely to 4 track.

 

[mr_jrt]

Surely if they managed to build 2 tracks on it another two are just as easy, even if speed restrictions effectively result in you having 4 slow lines...?

 

[Ianno87]

Surely if they managed to build 2 tracks on it another two are just as easy, even if speed restrictions effectively result in you having 4 slow lines...?

To build to "modern standards" would be expensive, especially to avoid undermining the current formation (I'm guessing not built in a way comparable to modern standards). In similar ground conditions not far away, the Ely bypass road bridge required 42m deep piles* to stop it sinking into the fen. And they didn't come cheap, as the project found out.

Hugely expense, for probably not much actually capacity benefit in terms of additional timetable-able train paths above what Woodwalton, Werrington, etc. already generate.

And it would be a tough sell, 4 tracking to increase journey times (with the negative £££ Net Present Value that creates)....


*The same height as Ely Cathedral, for context.

 

[Aictos]

I was told by an ex-guard there used to be a Huntingdon-Hertford North service.

Certainly was and if you look up the accident report at Hertford North it makes mention of such a service.

Correct.

Supplemented by a Huntingdon - London service via WGC.

I think it lasted into privatisation but once Hertford - London went every 20mins it stopped.

Understand Peterborough- London every 30 mins was a ORCATs raid on GNER.

Partly wrong, sorry to burst your bubble but the 1990 Summer TT states that while there are services to Welwyn Garden City from Huntingdon, the certainly isn't any Huntingdon to Hertford shuttles so can't see how they as in the Huntingdon to Hertford lasted into privatisation.

And seeing as the wires reached Huntingdon in 1986 I can't see BR running a DMU shuttle when they had new EMUs to use instead so I say it's a safe bet that by no later then 1987, that Hertford shuttle was no more.

 

[Failed Unit]

Certainly was and if you look up the accident report at Hertford North it makes mention of such a service.



Partly wrong, sorry to burst your bubble but the 1990 Summer TT states that while there are services to Welwyn Garden City from Huntingdon, the certainly isn't any Huntingdon to Hertford shuttles so can't see how they as in the Huntingdon to Hertford lasted into privatisation.

And seeing as the wires reached Huntingdon in 1986 I can't see BR running a DMU shuttle when they had new EMUs to use instead so I say it's a safe bet that by no later then 1987, that Hertford shuttle was no more.

I must admit I expected this sort of post from you.... but the tone of your posts shows you don’t know what you are talking about. “I say it’s a safe bet” and “I can’t see” - IE your opinion no facts.

Try reading what I post before you comment. What I say is correct. Via WGC = Mainline. Just as the current London - Edinburgh service goes via WGC. Never mentioned anything about calling points or a shuttle from Hertford - Huntingdon. That part is a figment if your imagination.

1980s = period of time from 1980 - 1989. Therefore the wires were there after 1986 and it was possible to run an EMU just like BR did. It lasted into privatisation- I used it as it continued to London on an EMU!

 

[Aictos]

I must admit I expected this sort of post from you.... but the tone of your posts shows you don’t know what you are talking about. “I say it’s a safe bet” and “I can’t see” - IE your opinion no facts.

Try reading what I post before you comment. What I say is correct. Via WGC = Mainline. Just as the current London - Edinburgh service goes via WGC. Never mentioned anything about calling points or a shuttle from Hertford - Huntingdon. That part is a figment if your imagination.

1980s = period of time from 1980 - 1989. Therefore the wires were there after 1986 and it was possible to run an EMU just like BR did. It lasted into privatisation- I used it as it continued to London on an EMU!

I was told by an ex-guard there used to be a Huntingdon-Hertford North service.

Correct.

Supplemented by a Huntingdon - London service via WGC.

I think it lasted into privatisation but once Hertford - London went every 20mins it stopped.

Understand Peterborough- London every 30 mins was a ORCATs raid on GNER.

A few points for you to reconsider...

1. YOU said quite rightly that there was a Huntingdon to Hertford shuttle which I won't argue with as it did exist in the timetables.

2. This is now where your post gets blurred and instead of admitting your post wasn't clear you attack me see point 3 for why.

3. Your post made it looked like both the Huntingdon to Hertford service and the Huntingdon to London via WGC services both lasted into privatisation.

4. I looked this up in original timetable and couldn't see any sign of the Huntingdon to Hertford service hence queried it.

5. Your post could have been a lot clearer but it wasn't so instead of attacking others maybe you ought to look at your own posts first to make sure they are clear to understand ie practice what you preach!

 

[Failed Unit]

A few points for you to reconsider...

1. YOU said quite rightly that there was a Huntingdon to Hertford shuttle which I won't argue with as it did exist in the timetables.

2. This is now where your post gets blurred and instead of admitting your post wasn't clear you attack me see point 3 for why.

3. Your post made it looked like both the Huntingdon to Hertford service and the Huntingdon to London via WGC services both lasted into privatisation.

4. I looked this up in original timetable and couldn't see any sign of the Huntingdon to Hertford service hence queried it.

5. Your post could have been a lot clearer but it wasn't so instead of attacking others maybe you ought to look at your own posts first to make sure they are clear to understand ie practice what you preach!

Apology accepted.
Glad you agree I was correct. We shall move on now.

 

[Aictos]

Glad you agree I was correct. We shall move on now.

I didn't fully agree, if you read the post clearly you would have noticed that I said it was because your post wasn't clear enough that wire got crossed.

Now if you could bear that in mind, yes we can move on...

 

[A0wen]

I was told by an ex-guard there used to be a Huntingdon-Hertford North service.

There was - post the initial electrification in 1978 ?

So Hertford North was served by electric services to Moorgate and a diesel service to Stevenage, Hitchin and Huntingdon.

Didn't last long - within a couple of years the DMU service was curtailed to Hitchin and one of the services from Moorgate was extended to Letchworth.

As others have said, initially the electrification was to Huntingdon - which led to the stations between Hitchin and Huntingdon regaining a regular direct service to Kings Cross.

I seem to recall at one time in the early 90s one of the London - Peterborough services did run via Hertford North - which was post electrification so would have been class 317s.

 

[Aictos]

I seem to recall at one time in the early 90s one of the London - Peterborough services did run via Hertford North - which was post electrification so would have been class 317s.

Indeed there's a book out there on Network South East which goes into detail about each sector/sub sector and there's mention of this in it.#

And btw it wasn't the book by Chris Green but another, sadly though I cannot remember the title.

 

[peterborough31]

Not heard or saw anything on this project recently. Nothing on the NR website now either. Has it been ditched!

 

[Aictos]

Not heard or saw anything on this project recently. Nothing on the NR website now either. Has it been ditched!

I think it was mentioned here that it was one of the projects that had either been put on hold/cancelled which is a pity as it should have been completed around the same time as the Werrington grade separation works in order to maximise the capacity now available as a result of the completion of both projects.

 

[peterborough31]

Agreed that is a shame.
Thanks.