Hydrogen powered trains ?

[Andy25]

Because they've already done it? Now the infrastructure is there, there's no case for ripping it down until end-of-life. However,

there is now justifiable uncertainty about whether really long-term investments in electrification are good ideas except on routes with high energy consumption - the "bionic duckweed" stuff about future techs making electrification obsolete was total rubbish in 2007, but it isn't now.​

In the UK, the basic issue is that we have failed to do electrification well.
So, the idea of wind/solar -> [hydrogen] -> fuel cell/battery hybrid is a bet on technologies where costs continue to fall.
Whereas full electrification is a bet on a solution where costs have risen steeply.
Ask the nuclear power industry how that's working out (Spoiler: Really, really badly).

If you look at track and trains as an integrated system, then a sub-optimally heavy train with higher operating costs may in many cases be better value than the optimised electric train that you don't get any benefit from until you've spent 5+ years ploughing capital investment into wiring.
It'd be great to have the techno-economic models that would give us an idea about the tipping points. We can probably all agree that is better for HS2 (long-distance, high intensity, high speed), and that batteries may well be the answer for a Bedford-Bletchley

shuttle ​

(short distance, low intensity, low speed) . There's quite a lot of middle ground, but understanding that well requires skilled modellers, good data and time.

Finally someone who gets it!

 

[edwin_m]

Because they've already done it? Now the infrastructure is there, there's no case for ripping it down until end-of-life. However,

there is now justifiable uncertainty about whether really long-term investments in electrification are good ideas except on routes with high energy consumption - the "bionic duckweed" stuff about future techs making electrification obsolete was total rubbish in 2007, but it isn't now.​

In the UK, the basic issue is that we have failed to do electrification well.
So, the idea of wind/solar -> [hydrogen] -> fuel cell/battery hybrid is a bet on technologies where costs continue to fall.
Whereas full electrification is a bet on a solution where costs have risen steeply.
Ask the nuclear power industry how that's working out (Spoiler: Really, really badly).

If you look at track and trains as an integrated system, then a sub-optimally heavy train with higher operating costs may in many cases be better value than the optimised electric train that you don't get any benefit from until you've spent 5+ years ploughing capital investment into wiring.
It'd be great to have the techno-economic models that would give us an idea about the tipping points. We can probably all agree that is better for HS2 (long-distance, high intensity, high speed), and that batteries may well be the answer for a Bedford-Bletchley

shuttle ​

(short distance, low intensity, low speed) . There's quite a lot of middle ground, but understanding that well requires skilled modellers, good data and time.

Some truth in that. There are definitely lines where electrification is never going to be viable but the question is indeed the level of traffic below which this becomes true.

The response to the UK failing to do electrification well (meaning at a reasonable cost) ought to be to understand why it costs so much less elsewhere and what lessons can be learned for application here. The Railway Industry Association is in the course of doing just that. For all we know the costs of hydrogen technology could inflate in the same sort of way - application of highly stringent safety standards in response to concern about leakage in tunnels being one possible example.

 

[Killingworth]

Piece in The Times today about 100 class 321s to be converted by Alstom, depending on the order book.

Interesting possibilities, but half of 2 carriages seemingly needed to store the hydrogen looks a bit of a safety issue, quite apart from reducing the units from 4 to 3 carriages anyway?

See; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s

Early days and I suspect it will be some time before we see fleets of these, but we have to start somewhere. Range of 625 miles is claimed.

 

[hwl]

Piece in The Times today about 100 class 321s to be converted by Alstom, depending on the order book.

Interesting possibilities, but half of 2 carriages seemingly needed to store the hydrogen looks a bit of a safety issue, quite apart from reducing the units from 4 to 3 carriages anyway?

See; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s

Early days and I suspect it will be some time before we see fleets of these, but we have to start somewhere. Range of 625 miles is claimed.

Isn't this regurgitating old news from at least 6 months ago?
And Windermere branch ain't going to use H2... so they might be waiting a while for the first order.

 

[Darandio]

Isn't this regurgitating old news from at least 6 months ago?

Not really, Alstom have done a full press release today.

 

[Killingworth]

Isn't this regurgitating old news from at least 6 months ago?
And Windermere branch ain't going to use H2... so they might be waiting a while for the first order.

This one; https://www.alstom.com/press-releas...irms-plans-to-bring-hydrogen-trains-to-the-uk

But it's beginning to look serious.

 

[hwl]

Not really, Alstom have done a full press release today.

As previously announced in the Times on 13th May 2018 with it own forum thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-321s-converted-to-hydrogen-fuel.164392/

Dusted off for the new year when DfT is grasping at Hydrogen straws again...

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Hydrogen trains is the last thing we need. Stick with diesel and if we really have to change then go electric.

 

[Killingworth]

Not really, Alstom have done a full press release today.

This is the latest press release from Alstom today; https://www.alstom.com/press-releas...holt-rail-unveil-new-hydrogen-train-design-uk

7 January 2019 –

Alstom and Eversholt Rail have unveiled the design of a new hydrogen train for the UK market. The train, codenamed ‘Breeze’, will be a conversion of existing Class 321 trains, reengineering some of the UK’s most reliable rolling stock, to create a clean train for the modern age. These trains could run across the UK as early as 2022, emitting only water and no harmful emissions at all.

The rolling stock conversion will be carried out by Alstom, working in partnership with Eversholt Rail and building upon an established business relationship spanning over 15 years and across multiple rolling stock fleets. This proven and reliable Class 321 is an excellent fit in terms of characteristics, fleet size and availability for conversion to a Hydrogen Multiple Unit (HMU).

Alstom and Eversholt Rail are working closely with industry stakeholders to develop the business cases and evaluate detailed introduction plans for fleets of these innovative trains and the associated fuelling infrastructure. Alstom and Eversholt Rail also confirmed that their initial, comprehensive engineering study is now complete, and the train design concept finalised. The innovative technical solution defined is the first to allow a hydrogen train to fit within the standard UK loading gauge, and it will also create more space for passengers than the trains they are intended to replace.

The Alstom facility in Widnes will manage the conversion of the Breeze trains, creating high quality engineering jobs in this new, emerging sector.

The news follows the introduction in September of Alstom’s Coradia iLint hydrogen trains in Germany, where they now operate in regular passenger service on a daily basis. There is growing interest in Alstom’s hydrogen technology worldwide, including in France where the President of the Occitanie region, Carole Delga, recently announced a proposal to introduce the technology on trains there.

“Hydrogen train technology is an exciting innovation which has the potential to transform our railway, making journeys cleaner and greener by cutting CO2 emissions even further. We are working with industry to establish how hydrogen trains can play an important part in the future, delivering better services on rural and inter-urban routes,” said Andrew Jones MP, UK Rail Minister.

“Transport in the UK has evolved over centuries from the world’s first steam train to the tens of thousands of electric vehicles on our roads today thanks to our nation of innovators. This new hydrogen powered train, which will only emit water, is further proof of the UK’s continued creativity to transform the way we travel as we continue to move to a greener, cleaner economy. The UK is on track when it comes to growing a world-leading hydrogen economy, and through our modern Industrial Strategy we are providing £23 million to power our ambition to be the ‘go-to’ place for first-class hydrogen transport,” said Claire Perry MP, UK Minister for Energy and Clean Growth.

“The Breeze will be a clean new train for the UK with a stylish, modern look. The railways need to decarbonise and the Government has rightly set out a goal to eliminate diesel rolling stock by 2040. Hydrogen trains offer an ideal solution for routes which are unlikely to benefit from electrification, and our innovative engineering solution means they can now fit within the UK loading gauge and can quickly be ready to roll on Britain’s railways. In Germany, Alstom’s hydrogen trains are already transporting passengers in the comfort and quiet that is characteristic of these trains. The Breeze offers British rail users the opportunity to share in the pleasure that is a journey on a hydrogen train,” added Nick Crossfield, Alstom UK & Ireland Managing Director.

“Eversholt Rail has an enviable record of innovation across its rolling stock portfolio. Combining the experience gained from the successful Coradia iLint and Class 321 Renatus programmes will deliver a hydrogen-powered multiple unit product that will meet sponsors’ and train operators’ aspirations for the earliest possible fleet introduction,” added Eversholt Rail Client Relations Director Stephen Timothy.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Thanks for posting it, that looks really good, and so much more environmentally friendly than diesel rolling stock!

 

[hwl]

This is the latest today; https://www.alstom.com/press-releas...holt-rail-unveil-new-hydrogen-train-design-uk

...emitting only water and no harmful emissions at all. ...

.... greener by cutting CO2 emissions even further. ...

“ Government has rightly set out a goal to eliminate diesel rolling stock by 2040.

What the governement actually said was diesel only by 2040.

None of the Hydrogen they are looking at sourcing is renewably sourced

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Thanks for posting it, that looks really good, and so much more environmentally friendly than diesel rolling stock!

Doesn't sound as good though.

 

[hwl]

Piece in The Times today about 100 class 321s to be converted by Alstom, depending on the order book.

Interesting possibilities, but half of 2 carriages seemingly needed to store the hydrogen looks a bit of a safety issue, quite apart from reducing the units from 4 to 3 carriages anyway?

See; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s

Early days and I suspect it will be some time before we see fleets of these, but we have to start somewhere. Range of 625 miles is claimed.

Replacing 2 car 23m DMUs with 2.5car 20m ones isn't going to do much for capacity on many lines.

 

[Darandio]

Doesn't sound as good though.

After seeing your opposition to Adblue I did wonder if it was some sort of enthusiast/noise thing. Proved right. You don't want cleaner trains because they won't sound as good.

 

[hwl]

Thanks for posting it, that looks really good, and so much more environmentally friendly than diesel rolling stock!

The Hydrogen will come as waste product from chemical plants and refineries as it far cheaper than renewably sourced hydrogen (which is very energy inefficient overall.)

 

[VioletEclipse]

The Hydrogen will come as waste product from chemical plants and refineries as it far cheaper than renewably sourced hydrogen (which is very energy inefficient overall.)

Still better than not using the waste Hydrogen.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The Hydrogen will come as waste product from chemical plants and refineries as it far cheaper than renewably sourced hydrogen (which is very energy inefficient overall.)

Initial trials will be using this waste industrial "brown" hydrogen.
There's major initiatives planned to produce "blue" hydrogen from fossil gas by reformation with the arising CO2 captured.
Eventually "green" hydrogen (from renewable electricity) might become cost effective.

Let's not get too bogged down (again?) in technical arguments about efficiency, especially regarding the green hydrogen route. The operational inefficiency needs to be traded off against the avoided capital investment in electrification work, which Network Rail have been pretty good at showingb that they are pretty bad at doing.

 

[Mikey C]

Seeing that many of the current DMU routes operate in fairly remote locations, distributing the hydrogen with its low density could be quite expensive? I imagine refueling would have to be a controlled and very secure process too.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Replacing 2 car 23m DMUs with 2.5car 20m ones isn't going to do much for capacity on many lines.

How can you have a 2.5 car 20m DMU, it wont let me read the article so i cant see.

 

[hwl]

How can you have a 2.5 car 20m DMU, it wont let me read the article so i cant see.

The double doors at the cab end of the driving cars and the area beyond towards the cab are used for Hydrogen storage so between the 2 driving cars half a car is lost to H2 storage.

 

[43096]

The double doors at the cab end of the driving cars and the area beyond towards the cab are used for Hydrogen storage so between the 2 driving cars half a car is lost to H2 storage.

So having lost over half a car to storing the fuel, they then decide to take a car out of the train as well, presumably to up the range on the inefficient hydrogen fuel.

Can't store the hydrogen above the roof - not enough space. Can't store it under the floor - too much of a safety risk. Hydrogen still has a lot of reputational baggage that it carries when it comes to transport, too. All very well bleating on about how the tanks are safe etc etc: Joe Public will just think

 

[Charlie Smythe]

So having lost over half a car to storing the fuel, they then decide to take a car out of the train as well, presumably to up the range on the inefficient hydrogen fuel.

Can't store the hydrogen above the roof - not enough space. Can't store it under the floor - too much of a safety risk. Hydrogen still has a lot of reputational baggage that it carries when it comes to transport, too. All very well bleating on about how the tanks are safe etc etc: Joe Public will just think

So the train was 4 cars, they stole a car to make 3 and then lost half a car on storage tanks to make a 2.5 car train. Stick with diesel.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Will this Hydrogen Class 321 still its existing formation (DTCO+TSO+MSO+DTSO) Of course without the TSO as it is now a 3 car unit. So one motorcoach and then two driving trailers.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Seeing that many of the current DMU routes operate in fairly remote locations, distributing the hydrogen with its low density could be quite expensive? I imagine refueling would have to be a controlled and very secure process too.

This is an argument for "Green" hydrogen. Just (!) install an electrolyser plus compression/storage at some convenient point hooked into the local 11kV network - ie you might not need an extensive distribution infrastructure.

Alternatively there is quite a lot of work being done to look at repurposing the gas network for hydrogen.

 

[xotGD]

Depots that make their own fuel. Neat or what?

 

[VioletEclipse]

Depots that make their own fuel. Neat or what?

Certainly seems so

 

[Andy25]

So having lost over half a car to storing the fuel, they then decide to take a car out of the train as well, presumably to up the range on the inefficient hydrogen fuel.

Can't store the hydrogen above the roof - not enough space. Can't store it under the floor - too much of a safety risk. Hydrogen still has a lot of reputational baggage that it carries when it comes to transport, too. All very well bleating on about how the tanks are safe etc etc: Joe Public will just think

I would wager most of the hyndenburg arguments can be countered with today's technology. If this is going to succeed they need to acknowledge the concerns and publicly show how they have been mitigated.

Hell we have hydrogen buses in town centres already it's really not that big of a leap technology wise.

 

[Emblematic]

Most of the Hindenburg arguments are simply that much of what you see is the highly inflammable cellulose and aluminum powder painted envelope burning. Most of the hydrogen burned off above the craft, without much visible flame. Certainly, I don't think that hydrogen bus users give it a second thought.

 

[WatcherZero]

In the Liverpool Manchester area as already mentioned there is work being undertaken towards cutting the natural gas network with a percentage of hydrogen and ultimately converting the domestic supply network completely (though would require the gas suppliers to convert everyones cookers and boilers). They are looking at converting blocks of a few thousand homes at a time.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Most of the Hindenburg arguments are simply that much of what you see is the highly inflammable cellulose and aluminum powder painted envelope burning. Most of the hydrogen burned off above the craft, without much visible flame. Certainly, I don't think that hydrogen bus users give it a second thought.

I believe modern fuel hydrogen is treated to give visible flame for safety.

Still, if the Hindenburg disaster killed off airship travel, why do we still use jet airliners after several fiery crashes, many leaving no survivors?