Hyperloop RIP

[Adlington]

After much hype and very little progress, the demise of this project has been announced:

The company which became well known for its idea of shooting people hundreds of miles an hour through a vacuum has shut down.
The aim of Hyperloop One, based on an idea by Elon Musk, was to dramatically cut journey times.
It has previously received backing from Virgin founder Richard Branson, but he pulled out last year.
The firm will lay off its remaining staff by the end of the year, according to Bloomberg.

Hyperloop One has had a rocky history. The company started as Hyperloop Technologies before changing to Hyperloop One, then Virgin Hyperloop One after a buyout by the Virgin Group, and then dropping the Virgin branding again.

According to a Bloomberg report, the company will shut down on 31 December 2023. Hyperloop One has already laid off most of its employees, leaving only a few to manage asset sales. And even those remaining members will be out of the job on Dec. 31. After that, all remaining property will transfer to DP World, Dubai-based port logistics firm, which pumped millions of dollars into Hyperloop One.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well thats a big surprise. Can't understand it though, famously according to Elon in an interview he said it was really very simple and we know he is always right!

 

[The Ham]

Well thats a big surprise. Can't understand it though, famously according to Elon in an interview he said it was really very simple and we know he is always right!

I too am shocked!!!!

 

[spyinthesky]

I suppose these expert billionaires can now invest more time and money trying to go live on a dead planet rather than invest in the only one we have.

 

[jamesontheroad]

It existed not to improve public transportation, but to very deliberately distract attention, investment and political support from high-speed rail. HSL is proven, cost-effective and (in California) posed the single biggest threat to some of Hyperloop’s shareholders. This whole charade has been to the benefit of the fossil fuel and car industries.

 

[Lucan]

Unfortunately this is probably not the end of Hyperloop because Hyperloop One was only one of several companies pursuing it, albeit the most significant. I would not put it past Musk from stepping in again to try to re-energise things to keep up his vendetta against railways; but hopefully he is too tied up with the train wreck (sorry!) he has made of Twitter/X, and has now had a very significant legal defeat* over his false claims about Tesla self-driving capability.

The EU, for one, have been very keen on H-L, making research grants and issuing statements enthusing about its potential - statements by people who either seem to be unaware of the existence of trains, or that they cannot use electricity, or that they are no faster than cars. Here is one example of the BS buzzword soup : EU Position Paper .

It existed not to improve public transportation, but to very deliberately distract attention, investment and political support from high-speed rail.

It is also a gift to politicians who want to kick the can of transport investment down the road. Instead of spending money now, they can say "We are waiting for Hyperloop to be developed". Some objectors to HS2 have also used this argument to play for time (they would object to H-L as well of course, but are confident it won't get that far). It helps H-L's case that politicians, the media and financiers rarely have much technical knowledge and a technically minded salesman like Musk (or even a technically ignorant one like Branson) can easily BS them.

* Tesla legal ruling

 

[Ian99]

I don't disagree with what you're saying, Lucan, but isn't the document labelled as "EU Position Paper" just a document from Hyperloop trying to sell the idea to the EU rather than a paper showing the EU stance?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

It is also a gift to politicians who want to kick the can of transport investment down the road.

I've read about cases of local politicians in the United States opposing purchases of new buses on the grounds that self-driving cars will make them redundant.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, Lucan, but isn't the document labelled as "EU Position Paper" just a document from Hyperloop trying to sell the idea to the EU rather than a paper showing the EU stance?

Yes, it's a pitch to MEPs from an organisation called Hyperloop Development Program, which describes itself as "a public-private partnership driven by national and regional governments, and a group of industry parties and knowledge & research institutions".

 

[nwales58]

Yes, it's a pitch to MEPs from an organisation called Hyperloop Development Program, which describes itself as "a public-private partnership driven by national and regional governments, and a group of industry parties and knowledge & research institutions".

Hochschule Emden-Leer

Maybe similar to University of Warwick's involvment in Very Light Rail in this country, although Warwick Manufacturing Group has a lot of long-standing solid R&D expertise whereas the Emden setup looks more like jumping on a fundable bandwagon.

 

[Zamracene749]

Not the first time US (and other) investors have been creamed by spivs. PS anybody out there wanna buy London Bridge?

 

[MarkyT]

Hochschule Emden-Leer

Maybe similar to University of Warwick's involvment in Very Light Rail in this country, although Warwick Manufacturing Group has a lot of long-standing solid R&D expertise whereas the Emden setup looks more like jumping on a fundable bandwagon.

The towns of Emden and Leer are not far north of the old Transrapid test track in Lower Saxony (~40 & 30km respectively). Leads me to wonder if the institution or any people involved have any links with the old maglev research and development.

 

[nwales58]

Could be, I hadn't thought of that. I wondered whether Emden's main specialities were maritime and farming!

Clearly, the mistake of the early atmospheric railways was not to use a tube large enough to fit the train into.

I can see some point in R&D into hyperloop freight, there was a transalpine proposal, it's far more difficult to make it safe enough for passengers if something fails.

 

[MarkyT]

Could be, I hadn't thought of that. I wondered whether Emden's main specialities were maritime and farming!

Clearly, the mistake of the early atmospheric railways was not to use a tube large enough to fit the train into.

I can see some point in R&D into hyperloop freight, there was a transalpine proposal, it's far more difficult to make it safe enough for passengers if something fails.

Automated logistics would be great but you don't need very high speed for that, just a nice steady reliable constant would do. Then you wouldn't need the absurd vacuum and all the associated costs and risks so why put it in a pipe at all. Not saying the system couldn't go underground where expedient but without vacuum it could be in the open in places as well if that made sense. Maybe you could use wheels of some kind instead of maglev or air-hockey puck as that doesn't seem to be delivering the efficiencies promoters envisaged in previous decades. The vehicles might run on some kind of 'track', a parallel runway of metal bars or similar. They could mechanically hook a number of them up into a sort of 'convoy' to maximise capacity and reduce control complexity. Has anyone ever tried such a thing before?

 

[nwales58]

That is a gem of an example of descoping.

How about reducing mechanical complexity by using animal power, a technology with centuries of proven reliability.

 

[MarkyT]

That is a gem of an example of descoping.

How about reducing mechanical complexity by using animal power, a technology with centuries of proven reliability.

It could be very resilient in times of hardship and austerity. Animal power might be more appropriate in a burgeoning canal sector however, but maybe on land something that could burn a wide range of solid or liquid fuels in an external combustion process...

 

[lisamerlot]

Do you think that the whole vacumm tunnel thing will be real? Isn't Elon Husk thinking about doing something like that for transport?

 

[MarkyT]

Do you think that the whole vacumm tunnel thing will be real? Isn't Elon Husk thinking about doing something like that for transport?

He was/is very anti rail, notably the Califonia HS line and many claim he only promoted the unproven concept to confuse and delay that project among others, hopefully (for him) getting it cancelled, and future similar ones. Don't forget he's big in cars and probably doesn't want much competition from good public transport. He is also claimed to have an almost pathological dislike of shared spaces on transport. Hyperloop likely did some damage at least to multiple serious transport projects by pretending there was going to be some magical cheap solution just around the corner. It was none of those things, only smoke, mirrors and noise around vapourware.

 

[lisamerlot]

Do you think all trains in the UK will be electric by 2035?

 

[birchesgreen]

Do you think all trains in the UK will be electric by 2035?

There is no chance of that i'm afraid, though it would be good if they can get on with electrifying all of the main routes.

 

[spyinthesky]

Do you think all trains in the UK will be electric by 2035?

Quite simply, no.
There is still plenty of mainline to do then the branch lines will prove far too much cost.
All the talk about hyperloops and we still haven’t mastered electric. Fantasy.

 

[lisamerlot]

Quite simply, no.
There is still plenty of mainline to do then the branch lines will prove far too much cost.
All the talk about hyperloops and we still haven’t mastered electric. Fantasy.

Do you think they will do a HS3 or something to electrify main lines beyond Birmingham?

 

[Tester]

Do you think they will do a HS3 or something to electrify main lines beyond Birmingham?

The current government would like to take us more towards the US than Europe, so no. Cars appear to be the future.

 

[birchesgreen]

The current government would like to take us more towards the US than Europe, so no. Cars appear to be the future.

Well hopefully thinks may change on that score after next year though with the state of the country's finances right now i think HS3 could be a long long way off.

 

[Tester]

Well hopefully thinks may change on that score after next year though with the state of the country's finances right now i think HS3 could be a long long way off.

We can but hope.....

 

[Citybreak1]

How is it the end of Hyperloop? I follow this company on Twitter https://www.hardt.global/ and they are making good progress in Holland.

 

[MarkyT]

How is it the end of Hyperloop? I follow this company on Twitter https://www.hardt.global/ and they are making good progress in Holland.

I give them credit for the magnetic levitation and propulsion work, but their continued promotion of running in a vacuum or lower-pressure tube is, as it always has been, dumb. It's just not worth all that extra cost and risk so 20 small pods can run at tiny headways slightly faster than coupling them all together into a modern open air train (steel wheel or future maglev) with really good aerodynamics that can still run at pretty good headways safely but can carry vastly more passengers. That doesn't solve Musk's personal dislike of sharing space with strangers and he seems to want to impose the small vehicle paradigm on everyone else too, regardless of cost or other externalities. Maglev technology hasn't proved itself yet, evidenced by the tiny number of installations. But I'm open-minded. Maybe this company will come up with the killer design that finally nails it but they're still facing the uphill battle of incompatibility with conventional railways meaning more inconvenient transfers between vehicles. Japan will face this problem if they ever get their maglev finished. Anyone travelling from Tokyo to west of Osaka will be forced to transfer to conventional train there for the fastest journey time to Hiroshima for example. Most of the journey time benefits of the new route are from its more direct and straighter trajectory inland through the mountains compared to the original circuitous and sinuous 1960s Tōkaidō HS route along the crowded coastline. If Chūō Shinkansen had been planned for conventional HS rail, significant time savings to Osaka would still have accrued while the through journeys from further west could have been improved. The far west is where rail struggles most to compete with domestic air, and the forced transfer for little benefit may not prove sufficiently attractive to attract further mode share to rail/guideway and maybe even threatens some existing business.

 

[The Ham]

The current government would like to take us more towards the US than Europe, so no. Cars appear to be the future.

Only if you ignore the potential capacity of each possible mode of travel.

A road with no junctions causing reduction in capacity can carry about 1,500 cars per hour, with an average seat occupancy of 1.4 people that's about 2,100 people.

Increase the capacity of roads by having buses (a maximum of 750 buses an hour) with 30 people in each and you can carry up to 22,500 people (it will be less than this as they would have to stop to pick up/drop off people, and you couldn't reliably maintain a bus every 5 seconds), it's now likely to be closer to half that, so about 13,000.

High speed rail at 16tph carrying 1,100 people (but a reliable service) and you can carry 17,600, even at 60% occupancy that's still a little over 10,000 people.

Whilst metro rail services would have the potential to carry 22,500 with significant people standing.

Hyperloop loop (assuming 20 seat pods and launching one every 5 seconds) would peak out at 14,400, the reality would be a larger gap between pods (if for no other reason than safety) and capacity starts to fall away quickly. For example, at 35 seconds you're down at the road capacity of 2,100 (assuming every pod is full).

You'll also likely need a tunnel per city pairing per direction (in part due to capacity, but also sure to safety), unlike rail which can easily share tracks along a core route.

 

[HS2isgood]

Only if you ignore the potential capacity of each possible mode of travel.

A road with no junctions causing reduction in capacity can carry about 1,500 cars per hour, with an average seat occupancy of 1.4 people that's about 2,100 people.

Increase the capacity of roads by having buses (a maximum of 750 buses an hour) with 30 people in each and you can carry up to 22,500 people (it will be less than this as they would have to stop to pick up/drop off people, and you couldn't reliably maintain a bus every 5 seconds), it's now likely to be closer to half that, so about 13,000.

High speed rail at 16tph carrying 1,100 people (but a reliable service) and you can carry 17,600, even at 60% occupancy that's still a little over 10,000 people.

Whilst metro rail services would have the potential to carry 22,500 with significant people standing.

Hyperloop loop (assuming 20 seat pods and launching one every 5 seconds) would peak out at 14,400, the reality would be a larger gap between pods (if for no other reason than safety) and capacity starts to fall away quickly. For example, at 35 seconds you're down at the road capacity of 2,100 (assuming every pod is full).

You'll also likely need a tunnel per city pairing per direction (in part due to capacity, but also sure to safety), unlike rail which can easily share tracks along a core route.

Hyperloop's concept of pods is basically unviable, it would have to be a vacuum train to be able to carry any relevant amount of people.

 

[Tester]

Only if you ignore the potential capacity of each possible mode of travel.

A road with no junctions causing reduction in capacity can carry about 1,500 cars per hour, with an average seat occupancy of 1.4 people that's about 2,100 people.

Increase the capacity of roads by having buses (a maximum of 750 buses an hour) with 30 people in each and you can carry up to 22,500 people (it will be less than this as they would have to stop to pick up/drop off people, and you couldn't reliably maintain a bus every 5 seconds), it's now likely to be closer to half that, so about 13,000.

High speed rail at 16tph carrying 1,100 people (but a reliable service) and you can carry 17,600, even at 60% occupancy that's still a little over 10,000 people.

Whilst metro rail services would have the potential to carry 22,500 with significant people standing.

Hyperloop loop (assuming 20 seat pods and launching one every 5 seconds) would peak out at 14,400, the reality would be a larger gap between pods (if for no other reason than safety) and capacity starts to fall away quickly. For example, at 35 seconds you're down at the road capacity of 2,100 (assuming every pod is full).

You'll also likely need a tunnel per city pairing per direction (in part due to capacity, but also sure to safety), unlike rail which can easily share tracks along a core route.

Don't shoot the messenger

 

[yorksrob]

The current government would like to take us more towards the US than Europe, so no. Cars appear to be the future.

That the current Government will still be in power at the end of next year is a bold assumption.