Hypothetical diversionary routes if lines through Kent House are blocked

[Alex Mihai]

In the case that lines through Kent House were to be blocked, how would trains be diverted? I assume that most would be routed through the Catford Loop, however I do not know what its max capacity is. Are the lines from Beckenham Jct to New Beckenham (Beckenham spur and then on to Lewisham-Nunhead) and through Birbeck (to Crystal Palace and then on to Tulse Hill-Denmark Hill) also used as diversionary routes for Victoria-bound trains? I know the former is used by some trains to/from Charing X, as for the latter I am not sure if SE drivers also sign that route? Thank you.

 

[godfreycomplex]

In the case that lines through Kent House were to be blocked, how would trains be diverted? I assume that most would be routed through the Catford Loop, however I do not know what its max capacity is. Are the lines from Beckenham Jct to New Beckenham (Beckenham spur and then on to Lewisham-Nunhead) and through Birbeck (to Crystal Palace and then on to Tulse Hill-Denmark Hill) also used as diversionary routes for Victoria-bound trains? I know the former is used by some trains to/from Charing X, as for the latter I am not sure if SE drivers also sign that route? Thank you.

New Beckenham yes, Birkbeck no (SE drivers don’t sign it, there’s a single line section that’s occupied most of the time by the Southern service to Beckhenham Junction so there’s little point).

Catford Loop has a pretty high max capacity signalling wise in and of itself (at least as high as the Kent House route if not slightly more so) but threading everything through Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill without disrupting the Overground etc can be a bit tricky

 

[The Planner]

New Beckenham yes, Birkbeck no (SE drivers don’t sign it, there’s a single line section that’s occupied most of the time by the Southern service to Beckhenham Junction so there’s little point).

Catford Loop has a pretty high max capacity signalling wise in and of itself (at least as high as the Kent House route if not slightly more so) but threading everything through Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill without disrupting the Overground etc can be a bit tricky

If it's the right thing to do, you thin out/flex someone else's services.

 

[godfreycomplex]

If it's the right thing to do, you thin out/flex someone else's services.

Right enough, more put the last bit in to illustrate why more SE trains don’t go via Catford more than they do in the booked timetable

 

[theageofthetra]

Right enough, more put the last bit in to illustrate why more SE trains don’t go via Catford more than they do in the booked timetable

Plus not all links sign the Catford Loop

 

[30907]

Plus not all links sign the Catford Loop

Is there not a long-standing instruction that drivers are to accept either route at Shortlands Jn/Brixton without query? In which case, how can any relevant link NOT sign it?

I have had a diversion from Beckenham Jn via Lewisham but it's slower than the Loop.

I can recall Birkbeck being used in the late 70s for Boat Trains only, everything else being diverted to Blackfriars - but ISTR that was Vic Eastern resignalling rather than a block via K.H.

Lewisham-Chislehurst Jns is another option, but that's to cope with a block through Bromley S.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

New Beckenham yes, Birkbeck no (SE drivers don’t sign it, there’s a single line section that’s occupied most of the time by the Southern service to Beckhenham Junction so there’s little point).

Catford Loop has a pretty high max capacity signalling wise in and of itself (at least as high as the Kent House route if not slightly more so) but threading everything through Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill without disrupting the Overground etc can be a bit tricky

Happenns all the time, defintely not the trickiest diversion. Overground really isn't an issue at all as they stay on the Atlantics and you'd send all the diverted Southeastern's on the Catford Lines to Brixton.

If it's the right thing to do, you thin out/flex someone else's services.

For the Catford Loop diversions its not needed at all. Enough spare capacity to divert everything at weekends without taking any trains out. You will flex other trains obviously but don't need to remove anything.

 

[Horizon22]

Happenns all the time, defintely not the trickiest diversion. Overground really isn't an issue at all as they stay on the Atlantics and you'd send all the diverted Southeastern's on the Catford Lines to Brixton.

Thameslink stoppers are more of an issue though, as is the booked Vic-Dartford service.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thameslink stoppers are more of an issue though, as is the booked Vic-Dartford service.

Can still easily fit around them. The weekend service only requires 3tph to be diverted. Not too difficult to fit in at all.

 

[Taunton]

I used to visit Ravensbourne, on the Catford Loop, and it is maintained to fully main line standards, both per-way and signalling. Sometimes a flight of expresses would follow at 2 to 3 minute headways. This was in final boat train days when Up services could be rather random. In its Waterloo days even Eurostar would go that way on occasion.

It was a very local decision whether to send Up expresses via the Loop, if they presented at Shortlands shortly after a stopper via Kent House it was quicker to send them that way, and they would overtake the stopper. Drivers accepted whichever route without challenge.

 

[N/100]

I recall doing one of the Dover - Manchester/Liverpool trains that ran in the late 80s/early 90s diverted via Birkbeck.

 

[CarrotPie]

Is there not a long-standing instruction that drivers are to accept either route at Shortlands Jn/Brixton without query? In which case, how can any relevant link NOT sign it?

It was a very local decision whether to send Up expresses via the Loop, if they presented at Shortlands shortly after a stopper via Kent House it was quicker to send them that way, and they would overtake the stopper. Drivers accepted whichever route without challenge.

There is an instruction in the Sectional Appendix to that effect. LO should be no issue for pathing because everything's grade separated, but anything booked to stop on the Loop + Peckham & Nunhead will. There's also the issue of services booked to stop on the Kent House route, because there's no point running them if they're gonna go via Catford.

 

[30907]

There's also the issue of services booked to stop on the Kent House route, because there's no point running them if they're gonna go via Catford.

Users of Bickley and Shortlands in particular beg to disagree

 

[CarrotPie]

Users of Bickley and Shortlands in particular beg to disagree

But since they have stops on all lines, you could stop fast services there to keep them in the loop.

 

[30907]

But since they have stops on all lines, you could stop fast services there to keep them in the loop.

OK - Orpington to Bromley (offpeak)? - the bus is far slower.

More to the point, there is plenty of capacity via the actual Loop, so why do you want to cancel anything?

 

[CarrotPie]

OK - Orpington to Bromley (offpeak)? - the bus is far slower.

Trouble is places to turn it back - Bellingham-Orpington?

More to the point, there is plenty of capacity via the actual Loop, so why do you want to cancel anything?

I don't, but there's no point running (Orpington-)Bromley-Victoria stoppers if they can't call at half the stations!

 

[SE%Traveller]

Trouble is places to turn it back - Bellingham-Orpington?

I don't, but there's no point running (Orpington-)Bromley-Victoria stoppers if they can't call at half the stations!

As it happens they do run the stoppers by the Loop when there's a diversion, stopping at Denmark Hill only, with the Rail replacement buses running between there and Bromley South.

 

[CarrotPie]

As it happens they do run the stoppers by the Loop when there's a diversion, stopping at Denmark Hill only, with the Rail replacement buses running between there and Bromley South.

What's the calling pattern?

 

[30907]

What's the calling pattern?

Denmark Hill-Herne Hill and all stations IIRC. Shortlands used to be the connecting point but it isn't PRM-friendly (or bus-friendly TBH).

it's a shame that Denmark Hill- Lewisham-Mid Kent isn't used to serve Beckenham Jn , but it's slower and again there are access issues to the down side (it's a long way round step-free!).

 

[CarrotPie]

Denmark Hill-Herne Hill and all stations IIRC. Shortlands used to be the connecting point but it isn't PRM-friendly (or bus-friendly TBH).

it's a shame that Denmark Hill- Lewisham-Mid Kent isn't used to serve Beckenham Jn , but it's slower and again there are access issues to the down side (it's a long way round step-free!).

Sorry, I meant the trains. Do they run fast to Bromley then all stations to Orpington?

 

[30907]

Sorry, I meant the trains. Do they run fast to Bromley then all stations to Orpington?

Denmark Hill (for the bus) then Shortlands. No obvious point stopping elsewhere, and not much slack in the timings anyway.

 

[scrapthe503]

Some brain of Britain at Southeastern made arrangements for a link at Grove Park to sign Victoria to Lewisham, and Victoria to Orpington via Beckenham Junction, but not Nunhead to Shortlands. It has lead to cancellations or delays in the past.

In short, if Kent House is closed, no Southeastern stuff is going to Crystal Palace. You could, if you had the right train crew from, say, Tonbridge, Orpington or a link at Grove Park, arrange for something from Beckenham Junction to get to Victoria via New Beckenham and Lewisham. You would, however, usually use the Catford Loop.

If it's gone to pot at that moment, and it isn't planned, stuff gets diverted or control make a choice. Stuff from the Medway Towns is quite likely to go to Cannon Street. Stuff from Ashford, now so many Maidstone East line trains are done by Victoria train crew, I believe can now get to Charing Cross as a result of improved route knowledge. Or, of course, Catford Loop to Blackfriars.

Anyway, the short answer is, if the driver doesn't sign something, it's not going. If they do, there will be a contingency plan to run to.