I have been charged with an offence... but I feel that I did not commit it!

[jvrmgonzalez]

On the 22nd of July 2022 I took an LNER train at Newark North Gate bound for York at 16:46 for which I had purchased a ticket using that company's app.

On the train, an inspector asked me for my ticket, to which I complied, showing them that he had bought a ticket for 16:46 from Newark North Gate to York. They informed me that the train I took was the wrong train. Apparently, and from what that same inspector informed me, this train was the 16:30 train from Newark North Gate to York that was delayed and therefore arrived at Newark North Gate at 16:46 I was not aware of this.

Despite this, the inspector insisted that I had to pay a fee because I boarded the wrong train, even though I had a valid ticket which clearly showed that the date, time and stations I was boarding the train corresponded to the current date, time and stations as I boarded. It's not my fault that the LNER train was late and it's not my fault that no one at the station warned me not to get on this train. All I know is that I paid for a train ticket between Newark North Gate and York at 16:46 and that was the train I boarded.

The train inspector gave me a UFN with and I immediately appealed it. However, LNER did not deign to accept it, even when it was the company that failed to comply with its schedule...

It is not true that I traveled without a valid ticket, on the contrary, I used a validly purchased ticket and the company did not comply with the train schedule...

What should I do?

 

[Haywain]

It's not my fault that the LNER train was late and it's not my fault that no one at the station warned me not to get on this train.

Did you ask anyone if it was the right train? If you didn't, how would they know what ticket you had and which train you should be boarding? In my experience dpeartures at Newark Northgate are all announced and shown on the customer displays, and it is generally pretty clear if a service is delayed that it is the delayed service.

It is not true that I traveled without a valid ticket, on the contrary, I used a validly purchased ticket and the company did not comply with the train schedule.

From what you tell us, you had a valid ticket for a specific train but it was not valid for the train you boarded.

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

Did you ask anyone if it was the right train? If you didn't, how would they know what ticket you had and which train you should be boarding? In my experience dpeartures at Newark Northgate are all announced and shown on the customer displays, and it is generally pretty clear if a service is delayed that it is the delayed service.


From what you tell us, you had a valid ticket for a specific train but it was not valid for the train you boarded.

Thanks for your reply.
I arrived to the station as the train was stopping, all I could see is that it was the train to York and that it was right on time (exactly at 16:46 as my ticket stated) So I boarded it...

 

[Watershed]

On the 22nd of July 2022 I took an LNER train at Newark North Gate bound for York at 16:46 for which I had purchased a ticket using that company's app.

On the train, an inspector asked me for my ticket, to which I complied, showing them that he had bought a ticket for 16:46 from Newark North Gate to York. They informed me that the train I took was the wrong train. Apparently, and from what that same inspector informed me, this train was the 16:30 train from Newark North Gate to York that was delayed and therefore arrived at Newark North Gate at 16:46 I was not aware of this.

Despite this, the inspector insisted that I had to pay a fee because I boarded the wrong train, even though I had a valid ticket which clearly showed that the date, time and stations I was boarding the train corresponded to the current date, time and stations as I boarded. It's not my fault that the LNER train was late and it's not my fault that no one at the station warned me not to get on this train. All I know is that I paid for a train ticket between Newark North Gate and York at 16:46 and that was the train I boarded.

The train inspector gave me a UFN with and I immediately appealed it. However, LNER did not deign to accept it, even when it was the company that failed to comply with its schedule...

It is not true that I traveled without a valid ticket, on the contrary, I used a validly purchased ticket and the company did not comply with the train schedule...

What should I do?

I definitely have a lot of sympathy with you in this situation. It was clearly completely unfair for you to be issued with the UFN in these circumstances.

However, the morals of the situation don't change the legal position, which is that Advance tickets are only valid on the itinerary and trains you select when booking. Trains are identified by their scheduled departure time; as you have seen in your example, this does not necessarily correspond to their actual departure time. Therefore, LNER are correct that your ticket was not, strictly speaking, valid.

As for there being no indication that this was not the 16:46 service on which you had booked, I am afraid this is very unlikely to have been the case. There would have been display on the platform which would have indicated that the next train was the delayed 16:30 service, as well as a corresponding announcement. The displays of the side of the train would also have showed it as being the delayed 16:30 service. I appreciate that you may not necessarily have noticed these, but they would have been present. It nevertheless remains extremely harsh practice to issue a UFN in the circumstances.

You refer to having been charged with an offence but you haven't provided us with any information about the offence itself or any other details about the prosecution's. It would help if you could provide us with a copy of any paperwork, emails etc. you have received - with any names, addresses, reference numbers etc. redacted.

Whilst we will look into the exact details once you provide them, this is one of the few scenarios where it might help to try and get in contact with LNER's PR team or possibly even their managing director, David Horne. He is easily contacted on social media, e.g. Twitter. Before contacting anyone, do let us take a look first though.

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

I definitely have a lot of sympathy with you in this situation. It was clearly completely unfair for you to be issued with the UFN in these circumstances.

However, the morals of the situation don't change the legal position, which is that Advance tickets are only valid on the itinerary and trains you select when booking. Trains are identified by their scheduled departure time; as you have seen in your example, this does not necessarily correspond to their actual departure time. Therefore, LNER are correct that your ticket was not, strictly speaking, valid.

As for there being no indication that this was not the 16:46 service on which you had booked, I am afraid this is very unlikely to have been the case. There would have been display on the platform which would have indicated that the next train was the delayed 16:30 service, as well as a corresponding announcement. The displays of the side of the train would also have showed it as being the delayed 16:30 service. I appreciate that you may not necessarily have noticed these, but they would have been present. It nevertheless remains extremely harsh practice to issue a UFN in the circumstances.

You refer to having been charged with an offence but you haven't provided us with any information about the offence itself or any other details about the prosecution's. It would help if you could provide us with a copy of any paperwork, emails etc. you have received - with any names, addresses, reference numbers etc. redacted.

Whilst we will look into the exact details once you provide them, this is one of the few scenarios where it might help to try and get in contact with LNER's PR team or possibly even their managing director, David Horne. He is easily contacted on social media, e.g. Twitter. Before contacting anyone, do let us take a look first though.

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply.
I will include the information I was sent on the letter with the names redacted.

That you [MY NAME] on 22/07/2022 at 17:29 (wrong time, I boarded at 16:46) entered a train for the purpose of travelling on the Railway in a non-compulsory ticket area, having boarded at a station where ticket purchasing facilities were available, without having paid a valid ticket entitling travel.

Contrary to Railway Byelaw 18.1 of the Railway Byelaws 2005, [MY NAME] was issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice. A reminder letter has been sent and have received no response or acceptable statement in mitigation (this is untrue, I appealed my UFN on the same day and replied the reminder) . Statement of Facts: On 22/07/2022, [MY NAME] travelled between Newark Northgate and York without a valid ticket for the journey being made.

When requested by [PERSONNEL], an authorised person for London North Eastern Railway, [MY NAME] failed to hand over a valid ticket entitling him/her to travel. [MY NAME] was issued with an UFN. A reminder letter has been sent and have received no response or acceptable statement in mitigation.

 

[Haywain]

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply.
I will include the information I was sent on the letter with the names redacted.

Is this a summons with a date for going to court?

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

Is this a summons with a date for going to court?

They are asking me to reply their letter with whether I plead guilty or not. If I plead not guilty, there will be a court date.
If I plead guilty, I will pay the fee (of which I am more than happy to do at this point) but I will get a criminal record... which I don't want to have.

 

[Haywain]

They are asking me to reply their letter with whether I plead guilty or not. If I plead not guilty, there will be a court date.
If I plead guilty, I will pay the fee (of which I am more than happy to do at this point) but I will get a criminal record... which I don't want to have.

To be clear, where has the letter come from? Is it from LNER or from the court.

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

To be clear, where has the letter come from? Is it from LNER or from the court.

The letter was sent to me by LNER

 

[Watershed]

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply.
I will include the information I was sent on the letter with the names redacted.

Ok, so they are prosecuting you under Railway Byelaw 18. Unfortunately this is a strict liability offence; your ticket was not valid and so you did indeed commit the offence you are accused of. That you didn't intend to travel without a valid ticket isn't relevant to the offence.

There are, nevertheless, a few ways in which you might "get out" of this situation:

1. LNER might be amenable to an out of court settlement, whereby they agree to drop the matter if you pay them a particular sum that purports to represent their adminstrative costs (typically between £80 and £150) plus the fare outstanding. This might feel like a bribe - that's because it effectively is (albeit it's legal in this case).
2. You might decide to plead guilty but provide mitigating factors for sentencing, in the hope that the magistrate or judge either awards a minimal fine, or an absolute or conditional discharge (i.e. no punishment at all, or no punishment as long as you stay out of trouble for a certain period).
3. You might decide to apply for the proceedings to be stayed on the basis that they're an abuse of process. Your argument would be something along the lines of the fact that the offence was only committed as a result of the prosecutor's actions and thus it would not be in the interest of justice for the matter to proceed. Of course, LNER might well contest this, arguing that you should have heeded the displays or announcements. You would almost certainly want to have a solicitor to make such an application for you, the cost of which would have to come out of your own pocket (at least initially).
4. You might decide to plead 'not guilty' and hope that the judge or magistrate takes pity on you. This is unlikely to work as this is a strict liability offence and these kinds of offences are dealt with like a production line - there will be hundreds heard within any given court session.
5. You might try and get LNER to stop the prosecution out of their own volition, for example by contacting their PR team or MD. In some senses there is nothing lost by trying this, but if you do attempt it, you need to do it in a tactful way and probably not in the manner that you first posted on this forum! We can help with reviewing any message you might want to send.

Hope that helps.

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

I definitely have a lot of sympathy with you in this situation. It was clearly completely unfair for you to be issued with the UFN in these circumstances.

However, the morals of the situation don't change the legal position, which is that Advance tickets are only valid on the itinerary and trains you select when booking. Trains are identified by their scheduled departure time; as you have seen in your example, this does not necessarily correspond to their actual departure time. Therefore, LNER are correct that your ticket was not, strictly speaking, valid.

As for there being no indication that this was not the 16:46 service on which you had booked, I am afraid this is very unlikely to have been the case. There would have been display on the platform which would have indicated that the next train was the delayed 16:30 service, as well as a corresponding announcement. The displays of the side of the train would also have showed it as being the delayed 16:30 service. I appreciate that you may not necessarily have noticed these, but they would have been present. It nevertheless remains extremely harsh practice to issue a UFN in the circumstances.

You refer to having been charged with an offence but you haven't provided us with any information about the offence itself or any other details about the prosecution's. It would help if you could provide us with a copy of any paperwork, emails etc. you have received - with any names, addresses, reference numbers etc. redacted.

Whilst we will look into the exact details once you provide them, this is one of the few scenarios where it might help to try and get in contact with LNER's PR team or possibly even their managing director, David Horne. He is easily contacted on social media, e.g. Twitter. Before contacting anyone, do let us take a look first though.

my reply with the information you are requesting is currently awaiting for a moderator to check it!

Ok, so they are prosecuting you under Railway Byelaw 18. Unfortunately this is a strict liability offence; your ticket was not valid and so you did indeed commit the offence you are accused of. That you didn't intend to travel without a valid ticket isn't relevant to the offence.

There are, nevertheless, a few ways in which you might "get out" of this situation:

1. LNER might be amenable to an out of court settlement, whereby they agree to drop the matter if you pay them a particular sum that purports to represent their adminstrative costs (typically between £80 and £150) plus the fare outstanding. This might feel like a bribe - that's because it effectively is (albeit it's legal in this case).
2. You might decide to plead guilty but provide mitigating factors for sentencing, in the hope that the magistrate or judge either awards a minimal fine, or an absolute or conditional discharge (i.e. no punishment at all, or no punishment as long as you stay out of trouble for a certain period).
3. You might decide to apply for the proceedings to be stayed on the basis that they're an abuse of process. Your argument would be something along the lines of the fact that the offence was only committed as a result of the prosecutor's actions and thus it would not be in the interest of justice for the matter to proceed. Of course, LNER might well contest this, arguing that you should have heeded the displays or announcements. You would almost certainly want to have a solicitor to make such an application for you, the cost of which would have to come out of your own pocket (at least initially).
4. You might decide to plead 'not guilty' and hope that the judge or magistrate takes pity on you. This is unlikely to work as this is a strict liability offence and these kinds of offences are dealt with like a production line - there will be hundreds heard within any given court session.
5. You might try and get LNER to stop the prosecution out of their own volition, for example by contacting their PR team or MD. In some senses there is nothing lost by trying this, but if you do attempt it, you need to do it in a tactful way and probably not in the manner that you first posted on this forum! We can help with reviewing any message you might want to send.

Hope that helps.

It does help a lot.
At this time I do understand that I should have more carefully checked the train I was taking before boarding it, and if I am to pay a fee for my own mistake I am alright with it... I only don't want a criminal record because of this!

 

[danielcanning]

Ok, so they are prosecuting you under Railway Byelaw 18. Unfortunately this is a strict liability offence; your ticket was not valid and so you did indeed commit the offence you are accused of. That you didn't intend to travel without a valid ticket isn't relevant to the offence.

There are, nevertheless, a few ways in which you might "get out" of this situation:

1. LNER might be amenable to an out of court settlement, whereby they agree to drop the matter if you pay them a particular sum that purports to represent their adminstrative costs (typically between £80 and £150) plus the fare outstanding. This might feel like a bribe - that's because it effectively is (albeit it's legal in this case).
2. You might decide to plead guilty but provide mitigating factors for sentencing, in the hope that the magistrate or judge either awards a minimal fine, or an absolute or conditional discharge (i.e. no punishment at all, or no punishment as long as you stay out of trouble for a certain period).
3. You might decide to apply for the proceedings to be stayed on the basis that they're an abuse of process. Your argument would be something along the lines of the fact that the offence was only committed as a result of the prosecutor's actions and thus it would not be in the interest of justice for the matter to proceed. Of course, LNER might well contest this, arguing that you should have heeded the displays or announcements. You would almost certainly want to have a solicitor to make such an application for you, the cost of which would have to come out of your own pocket (at least initially).
4. You might decide to plead 'not guilty' and hope that the judge or magistrate takes pity on you. This is unlikely to work as this is a strict liability offence and these kinds of offences are dealt with like a production line - there will be hundreds heard within any given court session.
5. You might try and get LNER to stop the prosecution out of their own volition, for example by contacting their PR team or MD. In some senses there is nothing lost by trying this, but if you do attempt it, you need to do it in a tactful way and probably not in the manner that you first posted on this forum! We can help with reviewing any message you might want to send.

Hope that helps.

On point 4 if the OP pleads not guilty then the case will not be heard this way and will be given a dedicated session.

 

[Haywain]

Noting the date of the incident and today's date are just over 6 months apart, it looks as though LNER might have messed up here and left it late to go to court. That's if papers have not already been laid before the court.

 

[lnerazuma]

This is utterly disgusting. A textbook demonstration of how the railway put it's passenger off.

According to the historic train running information on 22 Jul 2022 (Friday):

Headcode	Station	Sch. Arr	Actual Arr	Sch. Dep	Actual Dep
1N87 - 15:06 London Kings Cross to York	Newark North Gate	16:28	16:47 (19L)	16:30	16:49 (19L)
1S23 - 15:30 London Kings Cross to Glasgow Central	Newark North Gate	16:44	16:55 (11L)	16:46	16:57 (11L)

Both your reserved train and the train you boarded on were delayed and therefore you have the right to be rerouted at the first available opportunity by travelling on the next available service provided by the same TOC with whom you were booked in order to minimise delay.

 

[Haywain]

Both your reserved train and the train you boarded on were delayed and therefore you have the right to be rerouted at the first available opportunity by travelling on the next available service provided by the same TOC with whom you were booked in order to minimise delay.

An 11 minute delay does not give a right to be rerouted.

 

[Skymonster]

An 11 minute delay does not give a right to be rerouted.

“If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.” Conditions for Advance Tickets

Travel starts when you walk into the station / onto the platform. No case to answer.

 

[robbeech]

I think situations like this are tricky to deal with for the operator and for the passenger.

Many displays at small stations are woefully inaccurate during disruption, after the time for a particular train has elapsed the next train will be shown on the display and people CAN board a train with a PIS showing THEIR train to find out it’s not their train. Often they find out by realising the train they’ve boarded is going to a different destination or at the very least doesn’t call at their stop rather than there being a dispute or potential prosecution.
However, Newark Northgate doesn’t tend to suffer from this as there is more control over the screens.
Whilst of course I don’t know what it displayed on the day, the chances are it did display the correct train, which was not your train.

However, given the railway’s failure to run a service (the reasoning is irrelevant) is the cause of this, I personally feel it is absolutely appalling for the operator to take this approach in this situation. LNER should be ashamed of themselves and quite frankly the employees that we have here on this forum (who are excellent) should be embarrassed to see this.

I’m not sure what you can do to at this stage but regardless of things you should definitely write to them (and likely your mp if you live in the Newark area) to express your disappointment in the way they have handled this.

As an aside, there should be no criminal record for a Byelaw offence if this is indeed what you are faced with here.

 

[Bikeman78]

As for there being no indication that this was not the 16:46 service on which you had booked, I am afraid this is very unlikely to have been the case. There would have been display on the platform which would have indicated that the next train was the delayed 16:30 service, as well as a corresponding announcement. The displays of the side of the train would also have showed it as being the delayed 16:30 service. I appreciate that you may not necessarily have noticed these, but they would have been present. It nevertheless remains extremely harsh practice to issue a UFN in the circumstances.

I wouldn't count on the departure info being correct. If two trains are expected at the same time, they often get the order wrong. I mentioned in another thread where a train from Brighton was delayed, and Digital Doris gave details of the next train to Haywards Heath and Gatwick Airport. Only one small problem; that train was stuck behind the original one. Also, the suggested alternative was Gatwick Express so presumably Thameslink Only tickets would not have been valid.

 

[Kite159]

Was the York stopper formed of an Azuma which has side displays, or was it formed of an older Mk4 set which don't have displays on the doors saying which service it is (other than the calling pattern)?

A disgrace for LNER, they lost out on no revenue from someone accidentally boarding a delayed York stopper instead of a Glasgow train when both trains were around the same time (it's not like someone boarding the 14:30 using a ticket for the 16:46 or boarding a faster train as I presume the York stopper would have also called at Retford & Doncaster with the Glasgow train calling only at Doncaster) or even someone not holding a ticket in the first place. Whatever happened to putting passengers first?

 

[Hadders]

Technically LNER are correct.

That said if the train running information mentioned upthread is correct then LNER really should drop the case forthwith.

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

Was the York stopper formed of an Azuma which has side displays, or was it formed of an older Mk4 set which don't have displays on the doors saying which service it is (other than the calling pattern)?

A disgrace for LNER, they lost out on no revenue from someone accidentally boarding a delayed York stopper instead of a Glasgow train when both trains were around the same time (it's not like someone boarding the 14:30 using a ticket for the 16:46 or boarding a faster train as I presume the York stopper would have also called at Retford & Doncaster with the Glasgow train calling only at Doncaster) or even someone not holding a ticket in the first place. Whatever happened to putting passengers first?

It was indeed an Azuma, I must admit that I failed to read the displays on the doors. Had I done so, I would probably not have boarded the train. This was after a week trip to England (I live in Scotland) and I only wanted to get home. I thought I was so lucky because I arrived to the station at 16:46 which was the departure time for my train and there behold! My train was just stopping at the station!

Except it was not my train...

I am now wondering whether I should plead not guilty and go to court or plead guilty BUT go to court and defend myself.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Classic example of where a strict rule book would say the OP was in the wrong, but only a very desperate TM would actually penalise them for it. Sadly, such TMs appear very widespread on LNER. I was on an Intercity 225 back in 2021 and watched a TM actually grin with glee as he booked a foreign passenger for travelling on a Hull Trains Only ticket. Some do get a kick out of it, and it’s sickening.

Best of luck to the OP

A disgrace for LNER, they lost out on no revenue from someone accidentally boarding a delayed York stopper instead of a Glasgow train when both trains were around the same time (it's not like someone boarding the 14:30 using a ticket for the 16:46 or boarding a faster train as I presume the York stopper would have also called at Retford & Doncaster with the Glasgow train calling only at Doncaster) or even someone not holding a ticket in the first place. Whatever happened to putting passengers first?

Really does make me angry to see yet another guard on a power trip where it makes no difference to the revenue at all.

 

[Snow1964]

I have a lot of sympathy, LNER train arrives at time on LNER ticket going to destination on ticket.

I'm assuming the station clock showed correct time, and platform destination screen showed your destination.

Your strict liability error, is not knowing the train was actually a different one because LNER screwed up and provided the wrong train at right time.

Let's be honest if every passenger stood in the carriage doorway, blocking doors from closing until a member of staff came along and advised if it was right or wrong train, would be idiotic and disruptive, but effectively they are penalising you because you didn't take this approach. And by continuing this claim they are encouraging you to do that in future.

Sorry LNER are wrong, maybe by fluke the train matched your departure time and was advertised as going to your destination, but it is wrong to issue unpaid fare for this situation. It's not like Op was avoiding fare or blatantly travelling on a more expensive service deliberately.

I think it is reasonable to issue penalties where fare is not paid, or underpaid or for cheap off-peak ticket 2 hours earlier or later. But what has happened here is complete lack of sense that is just going to discourage rail travel.

I would plead not guilty and state you boarded at time on ticket, but subsequently discovered it was a late train from earlier in the day (try phrasing it this way rather than saying how late, it makes you look better)

 

[miklcct]

If I end up with the situation I would definitely escalate the matter to court and plead not guilty, because of 2 reasons:

1. I am booked to take the LNER train departing at 16:46 to York, which I did so by boarding an LNER train at 16:46 to York.
2. If the running data mentioned above is true, I am allowed to take the next available train if a delay occurs while travelling.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hasn't there been more six months since the incident meaning its statute barred ?

 

[jvrmgonzalez]

Hasn't there been more six months since the incident meaning its statute barred ?

I appealed the UFN at first. And also appealed the reminder letter they sent me (although they claim I never did).

 

[Western Sunset]

LNER might have strictly done the thing right by following the rules to the letter; I don't like using the term "jobsworth", but it appears totally appropriate here.
But did they do the right thing?

Did the passenger gain an advantage? No.
Were they trying to pull a fast one? No.
Did LNER lose any revenue because of the passenger's actions? No.

 

[AlterEgo]

This has fouled the six month deadline to lay papers before a court and the OP should do nothing if and until a summons arrives.

 

[nanstallon]

This is such an aggressive attitude towards a customer who had in good faith got on a train at the same time as the train he had paid for. The railways lose a lot of goodwill. Fortunately LNER's maliciousness seems to be combined with incompetence in missing the six month deadline. I hope so.

 

[Malaxa]

The OP was cutting things fine...if I have a pre-booked ticket for a certain train I certainly risk showing up just as it arrived. A brief delay on my part and I'd be having to rebook at possibly prohibvitive prices.