Ice disruption in Southern area 12/02/16

[Stew998]

From Southern's website this morning:

Cancellations to services between Haywards Heath and Lewes
Owing to poor rail conditions between Haywards Heath and Lewes all lines are blocked.Impact:Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed by up to 60 mins or diverted at short notice. Cooksbridge and Plumpton will not be served. Disruption is expected until 10:00 12/02.Customer Advice: due to icy third rail conditions affecting trains ability to take power between Haywards Heath and Lewes, trains are unable to run on this line.No trains will be able to call at Cooksbridge or Plumpton, replacement buses are running a shuttle between Haywards Heath and LewesCustomers for/from Lewes or Haywards Heath should travel via Brighton.Network Rail specialist staff are conducting de-icing operations on this line at presentFor more information on how ice can affect the railway please visit http://www.networkrail.co.uk/timetables-and-travel/delays-explained/snow-and-ice/.Additional Informationouthern Train ServicesYou can get in contact with us via Twitter (@SouthernRailUK).If your journey with us has been delayed by 30 minutes or more, you may be entitled to compensation for a portion of your fare. Please visit www.southernrailway.com/delayrepay for details.

There are also alterations to services between Reigate/Redhill and Redhill/Tonbridge for similar reasons.

What are the particular conditions that cause certain lines to be badly affected? The weather this morning does not seem extreme or unusual?

 

[RichJF]

I tweeted NetworkRail this morning. They said their own engineering works had overrun on many routes & so de-icing units/testing trains did not have enough time to run before the morning peak. So a little bit of ice has built up on the conductor rail in many places.

In the case of Redhill-Tonbridge, it's a very rural line susceptible to weather damage and is often the first route to have trains pulled if there are issues on the network. Interestingly enough the Hastings line is shut & the Maidstone East line very badly affected.

On my train through Merstham Tunnel-Purley there was a massive amount of arcing, loud bangs and the train was stuttering as it slowed down at Coulsdon. This is one of the main Brighton lines we're talking about.

 

[Philip C]

Also from South Eastern's web-site:

Due to poor rail conditions between Hastings and Tonbridge all lines are blocked.
Impact
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 12:00 12/02.
Customer Advice
Due to icy rail conditions this morning multiple trains are becoming delayed and in some cases becoming unable to move altogether, blocking both London and country bound lines.
Southern are currently accepting Southeastern ticketholders.
Highspeed are currently passing on their services.
Emergency buses have been ordered to convey passengers between Hastings and Tonbridge.

It would be interesting to know what is behind this. The weather can be very different inland, by comparison with here on the coast, but the car windows didn't need any scraping this morning. It was a chilly night but nothing obviously out of the usual.

I also find it very difficult to reconcile what appeared to be going on (or rather what was not going on) at Warrior Square, with this message and with Real Time Trains.

 

[al78]

There wasn't any ice on the road when I was cycling to work this morning, it was just damp. It had clearly rained overnight, and as such the cloud cover will have prevented the ground temperature dropping to freezing in my location. It will depend on how cloudy it was overnight, if some localised areas had prolonged clear spells that may allow temperatures locally to drop low enough for frost formation, especially in the countryside. In the case of the railway it is possible that the rails themselves cool down quicker than the ground under clear skies overnight, which could lead to icing on the rails but not on the ground, especially if the cloud has cleared shortly after rainfall.

 

[westcoaster]

The 387 I drove this morning told me to put it into ice mode, so was quite frosty. Our car was totally frozen and its parked between two houses( doesn't normally freeze to hard).

 

[theironroad]

The 387 I drove this morning told me to put it into ice mode, so was quite frosty. Our car was totally frozen and its parked between two houses( doesn't normally freeze to hard).

What happens in 'ice mode'?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What happens in 'ice mode'?

Is "ice mode" kinda the equivalent of pulling away in 2nd gear in a car when it's very icy?

 

[Deepgreen]

There wasn't any ice on the road when I was cycling to work this morning, it was just damp. It had clearly rained overnight, and as such the cloud cover will have prevented the ground temperature dropping to freezing in my location. It will depend on how cloudy it was overnight, if some localised areas had prolonged clear spells that may allow temperatures locally to drop low enough for frost formation, especially in the countryside. In the case of the railway it is possible that the rails themselves cool down quicker than the ground under clear skies overnight, which could lead to icing on the rails but not on the ground, especially if the cloud has cleared shortly after rainfall.

Quite right. Metal will cool faster than other materials, which is why a car will often be frosted with an air temperature a little above freezing. In addition, ground temperatures will be lower than air temperatures under clear skies, which effect is exacerbated by areas of sandy soil, which radiates heat away quicker than, say, loam.

See also the London Bridge New Timetable thread which discusses the Redhill area services.

 

[RichardKing]

I've noticed that the people working the Southern Twitter account have blamed slippery rails, as opposed to icy conductor rails, for the disruption between Lewes and Haywards Heath this morning. Now, if the slippery rail conditions was part of the reason 1F01 became trapped in the Plumpton area, what I don't understand is how two engineering trains ran completely fine through Plumpton at around 04:25. If there were slippery rail conditions in the Plumpton area, surely the drivers of these trains would have noticed and informed the signalman. This, most probably, would've led to 1F01 being diverted via Brighton (like the other Eastbourne-London trains were this morning, even the 442s!), causing less disruption.

Obviously, if the people working the Southern Twitter account have got their facts wrong and the problems this morning were caused only by icy conductor rails, then the drivers of the engineering trains wouldn't have known. This is the reason for why more ghost trains should run during the cold nights/mornings.

 

[DarloRich]

diesel power? weight distribution? more powered axles? sanders? getting a good run over the problem area? There could be all kinds of reasons why the engineering trains ran through and the passenger train didn't

 

[QueensCurve]

From Southern's website this morning:


There are also alterations to services between Reigate/Redhill and Redhill/Tonbridge for similar reasons.

What are the particular conditions that cause certain lines to be badly affected? The weather this morning does not seem extreme or unusual?

Icing on the conductor rail is probably similar to that on cars. If you get a sudden frost after warm weather when the air is moist a lot of frost forms whereas after a prolonged cold spell there tends to be less in my experience.

 

[RichardKing]

diesel power? weight distribution? more powered axles? sanders? getting a good run over the problem area? There could be all kinds of reasons why the engineering trains ran through and the passenger train didn't

Ok, maybe the engineering trains did get a good run over it because of the above reasons. Surely, knowing that the temperature would drop last night, a couple of ECS 377s could've been sent to test the rails before the first passenger trains. The Lewes - Keymer Junction line is well known for causing disruption during icy conditions.

 

[urpert]

There was nothing 'main line' through Bromley South at around 7 this morning, though a broken down train at Sole Street can't have helped.

 

[Deepgreen]

I've noticed that the people working the Southern Twitter account have blamed slippery rails, as opposed to icy conductor rails, for the disruption between Lewes and Haywards Heath this morning. Now, if the slippery rail conditions was part of the reason 1F01 became trapped in the Plumpton area, what I don't understand is how two engineering trains ran completely fine through Plumpton at around 04:25. If there were slippery rail conditions in the Plumpton area, surely the drivers of these trains would have noticed and informed the signalman. This, most probably, would've led to 1F01 being diverted via Brighton (like the other Eastbourne-London trains were this morning, even the 442s!), causing less disruption.

Obviously, if the people working the Southern Twitter account have got their facts wrong and the problems this morning were caused only by icy conductor rails, then the drivers of the engineering trains wouldn't have known. This is the reason for why more ghost trains should run during the cold nights/mornings.

Nothing to do with the running rails, so slippery rails is not the issue - just iced conductor (third) rails. Engineering trains are usually diesel powered and are not troubled by electrical problems. Someone in 'Customer Services' has presumably 'translated' icy to slippery and therefore lost the meaning and point entirely.

As far as I can see, the problem was sub-zero conductor rails then being lightly rained-upon and developing a layer of ice. Older, sturdier stock would remove/make do with the ice, whereas Electrostars, etc., can't take it.

 

[Latecomer]

What happens in 'ice mode'?

It's designed to eliminate excessive arcing by drawing extra current through the shoes thus melting the ice that causes the interference. The down side is it does cause units to jolt on and off the live rail. I don't know about the 377 fleet but there are a select number of 378's that also carry de-icing fluid that the driver manually activates in areas where de-icing is required. On particularly frosty nights a night spare driver may be sent out ECS to lay de-icing fluid in affected areas. Obviously this is not as effective as specialised engineering trains but it would appear that the problem was the overrunning of the engineering works.

 

[Panda]

Two trains also got stuck around Ascot this morning (one on the up and one on the down) between Reading and Waterloo. There were reports of issues due to poor rail conditions between Ascot and Aldershot too, not sure if it was completely related.

 

[RichardKing]

Nothing to do with the running rails, so slippery rails is not the issue - just iced conductor (third) rails. Engineering trains are usually diesel powered and are not troubled by electrical problems. Someone in 'Customer Services' has presumably 'translated' icy to slippery and therefore lost the meaning and point entirely.

As far as I can see, the problem was sub-zero conductor rails then being lightly rained-upon and developing a layer of ice. Older, sturdier stock would remove/make do with the ice, whereas Electrostars, etc., can't take it.

I can imagine a lot of people got the wrong end of the stick this morning then!

Out of interest, can 171s connect onto 377s in emergency situations?

 

[Antman]

I came out the house at about 5am this morning and fell **** over *** so I'm not surprised at the problems on the railway.

Delays between Maidstone East and Ashford due to 'poor rail conditions' with Ensign bus on standby.

 

[MrB]

Waited 2 hours for a train this morning without any information/updates from Southeastern. Seems I'm not alone in this.

 

[bengley]

I can imagine a lot of people got the wrong end of the stick this morning then!

Out of interest, can 171s connect onto 377s in emergency situations?

Mechanically yes - they both have Dellner couplers. Electrically, absolutely not!

 

[RichardKing]

Mechanically yes - they both have Dellner couplers. Electrically, absolutely not!

I would've imagined, in that case, that the predicament that 1F01 got into this morning at Plumpton would have warranted a 171 being sent up there from Eastbourne to assist it.

I'm sure the people who were stuck on the service for around 2 hours would've appreciated this!

 

[westcoaster]

It's designed to eliminate excessive arcing by drawing extra current through the shoes thus melting the ice that causes the interference. The down side is it does cause units to jolt on and off the live rail. I don't know about the 377 fleet but there are a select number of 378's that also carry de-icing fluid that the driver manually activates in areas where de-icing is required. On particularly frosty nights a night spare driver may be sent out ECS to lay de-icing fluid in affected areas. Obviously this is not as effective as specialised engineering trains but it would appear that the problem was the overrunning of the engineering works.

It actually draws less current, to stop voltage spikes. All onboard systems turn down abit, abit like an eco mode.

 

[Latecomer]

It actually draws less current, to stop voltage spikes. All onboard systems turn down abit, abit like an eco mode.

That is what I had thought initially until I discussed it during traction refresh with my DM and he said it was the opposite. Oh well, what do they know?!

 

[tsr]

Part of the issue from what I can tell is that the air temperature was bouncing like a yoyo in certain areas last night, which would have had a knock-on effect to some degree on everything else, and I should imagine it was pretty much impossible to predict where ice would form. From one hour to the next there were differences of ±3C in the air, let alone the ground or dewpoint temperatures. I was on an overnight Southern mainline service in the early hours of this morning and the arcing was amazingly bad - I'd not seen anything like that except in exceptional snowfall conditions. Obviously Control/driver/signaller were made aware but it was pretty hard to say what to do as trains on the BML overnight weren't actually losing all that much time at all, so services were still running fairly punctually from station to station until the branches went wrong in the early morning.

Regarding the Southern/TL network, the information from Network Rail is correct - some lines partly had the atrocious build up of ice due to combinations of line blocks and possessions other than in accordance with the timetable planned for overnight services. There were also a couple of cancellations of treatment train paths which in hindsight may not have been a terribly good idea!

 

[RichardN]

How are the conductor rail heaters working out? Have they improved reliability where they are fitted?

 

[Sunset route]

Out of interest, can 171s connect onto 377s in emergency situations?

Yes and have done so, the incident I'm thinking of is maybe 5 years or longer back, where an 8car 377 hit a landslide just after the London portal of Merstham tunnel. Selhusrt sent out I think 8car 171 as the rescue train (1Z99), the incident did make it to a RAIB investigation.

 

[Antman]

Seems to be no HS1 service out of St Pancras at the moment

 

[Southern313]

Gatwick to Earlswood was icy in patches. I followed a 442 that had stopped at Gatwick and really struggled to get any speed going afterwards. Was on single yellows all the way to Earlswood with lots of arcing and constantly getting loss of line messages on MITRAC.

Yet after Redhill tunnel it was fine.

 

[urpert]

For some reason things are still in a mess now. On 1731 Vic-Dartford which appeared to be the only thing leaving the Eastern side of Victoria.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And currently standing at Nunhead where there's an automated and highly pedantic announcement ('you may have been delayed due to ice forming on the third rail, that's the conductor rail that supplies electricity to the trains'). Damage control but at least they're trying to get the message out there.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Gatwick to Earlswood was icy in patches. I followed a 442 that had stopped at Gatwick and really struggled to get any speed going afterwards. Was on single yellows all the way to Earlswood with lots of arcing and constantly getting loss of line messages on MITRAC.

Yet after Redhill tunnel it was fine.

Depends on how you drive a 442! I guess they didn't teach them that well over on SN land, I never had any issues with power collection or traction in icy conditions or in poor adhesion conditions either.