Idea: Time To Reintroduce 'Reservations Compulsory' ?

[the Rat]

I recall a time when certain services were timetabled as ‘Reservations Compulsory’ or ‘Reservations Recommended’.

I assume that, post-privatisation, all services were ‘de-classified’ as no TOC would want to minimise passenger traffic and therefore profit.

I’m wondering whether a re-introduction of this policy might alleviate overcrowding on some services. Obviously longer and/or more frequent trains is the long-term solution but that might be years away in some cases.

What are the pros and cons?

 

[Hadders]

There were only a handful of reservation compulsory services.

What this achieve? You would destroy the walk on railway.

 

[Z12XE]

The railway should be a turn up and travel service for all trains, classes and everyone

I’d go the other way, scrap reservations totally. For advance purchase it would just be an allocated train reservation like applied currently on services where advance purchase exists yet seat reservations aren’t possible.

 

[nottsnurse]

I’d go the other way, scrap reservations totally.

Ah, the "everyone for themselves" approach? I can just picture the elderly/infirm/those with young children being trampled beneath the charging masses as platforms are announced at Euston...

Removing reservations could, at a stroke, make long distance rail travel unappealing to many different groups of people.

 

[47802]

No definitely not, we have this nonsense on European railways and its not the way the railways should go in view, should get of the xc reservation nonsense as well.

 

[Phil G]

The problem with reservations is people not using them and the seats being empty while people stand. With electronic reservations maybe they should clear a reasonable time after the station they started. XC is terrible you get on with a ticket costing in excess of £100 and a long journey ahead and there are no available unreserved seats. This is probably because the train is a 4 coach voyager that used to be a 12 coach loco hauled, however the reservation system doesn't help. It means the people paying most ie short notice walk up customers get the worst service. Equally you can get on what looks like a nearly empty GWR HST carriage to find nearly all the seats reserved and mostly empty and it's a hunt for ones that have not been used. By this time it's too late to move to another carriage as all the seats have been taken.

In the compulsory reservation scenario how do you deal with season ticket customers?

 

[IanD]

Removing reservations could, at a stroke, make long distance rail travel unappealing to many different groups of people.

Not least those joining mid-route.

 

[underbank]

You would destroy the walk on railway.

For some services, i.e. Virgin West Coast, the cost of "walk on" fares has virtually already destroyed the walk on railway. You'd have to be pretty desperate (or have an expense account) to pay on the day.

 

[Polarbear]

I wouldn't remove the ability to reserve a seat, but I do consider it strange that those travelling on the cheapest (Advance Purchase) tickets are often guaranteed a seat, whereas those paying more expensive "walk-up" fares are not.

For me, a system whereby seat reservations can be made, but are free to those holding walk up tickets, and chargeable to those on AP tickets may be one to think about for the future.

I do appreciate that not everyone is able to make a seat reservation, and I myself rarely make one unless a) I already have one with an AP fare or b) I know from experience the train I'll be using is likely to be busy.

 

[Intermodal]

For me, a system whereby seat reservations can be made, but are free to those holding walk up tickets,

So, the current system?

and chargeable to those on AP tickets

You want to increase fares?

 

[AM9]

Why are some here arguing about the type of ticket affecting the entitlement to a reserved seat? Advance tickets usually cost less because:

a) the purchaser waives any flexibility of when to travel which allows the TOC to optimise loads
b) the purchaser accepts that the times that they can travel will be severely limited​

Walk-up tickets usually cost more because:

a) the purchaser can change their travel time right up to the point of boarding (within the validity of their ticket type)
b) the purchaser insists on travelling when provision of the service is the most expensive to the TOC and the railway in general (especially Anytime tickets)​

Those are the primary reasons for advance tickets being (much) cheaper than walk-up. Unless travel is a last-minute decision, seats can be reserved for any journey (on applicable trains), so the entitlement to a reserved seat has little to do with the basic ticket price.

 

[Mag_seven]

Seat Reservations again! Been done to death on the forum already! Anyway my tuppensworth:

Keep seat reservations voluntary not compulsory but:

1. Keep at least one coach "non reservable"
2. Levy a fee for a reservation to discourage no-shows.
3. Using electronic seat reservation displays show any reserved seat as "available" 10 mins after departure from the station it's reserved from unless its also reserved from another station later in the journey.
4. Seat reservations should only be able to be made up to the time the train departs from the origin station.

 

[Journeyman]

The railway should be a turn up and travel service for all trains, classes and everyone

I’d go the other way, scrap reservations totally. For advance purchase it would just be an allocated train reservation like applied currently on services where advance purchase exists yet seat reservations aren’t possible.

Do that, and I'll never travel long distance by train again.

 

[AM9]

Seat Reservations again! Been done to death on the forum already! Anyway my tuppensworth:

Keep seat reservations voluntary not compulsory but:

1. Keep at least one coach "non reservable"
2. Levy a fee for a reservation to discourage no-shows.
3. Using electronic seat reservation displays show any reserved seat as "available" 10 mins after departure from the station it's reserved from unless its also reserved from another station later in the journey.
4. Seat reservations should only be able to be made up to the time the train departs from the origin station.

Your item 3. above should exclude advance tickets because a) the passenger is not voluntarily making a reservation and b) the 'no show' advance passenger forfeits their whole journey so doesn't really need any further discouragement.

 

[the Rat]

Interesting points and, yes, it has been done quite a lot on here recently.

But this was more from the point of view of being able to control numbers on really busy services. It's certainly not a suggestion that all services should be compulsory reservations.

There were only a handful of reservation compulsory services.

Precisely, and that's what I'm thinking of. A dozen or so would hardly impact upon the walk-on nature of the railway but perhaps spread the load to make those particular journeys more bearable for those that do travel on them.

 

[nottsnurse]

But this was more from the point of view of being able to control numbers on really busy services. It

But your suggestion isn't just controlling numbers on really busy services, it's making them seated only.

Whilst far from ideal I'm sure some passengers (such as commuters) would rather stand in the vestibule on popular (hence busy) services than be unable to join said service because it's now reservation only.

 

[Polarbear]

So, the current system?


You want to increase fares?

My point is that I can't see why those paying the lowest fares are guarenteed a seat. The fares for AP tickets don't have to increase, but the ticket should only permit access to the train-not come with a guarenteed seat. If customers want to take advantage of the lowest tier fares, fine, but if they also want a seat, why not pay extra for that?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Reservations should only be valid from a particular station. The card placeholder should only show this as well. Seats to be limited to one reservation per journey, except in extreme cases such as the longest XC routes. Once the next station is reached, passengers without reservations should be encouraged to sit in unoccupied seats ‘carded’ from earlier stations. Ideally the guard or customer host should remove ‘expired’ cards.

Furthermore, Advance purchase fares should be reservation mandatory, and ONLY valid for the reserved seat associated with the cheap fare.

Problem solved.

 

[DarloRich]

I’m wondering whether a re-introduction of this policy might alleviate overcrowding on some services

It would only mean more people got on the none compulsory reservation train.

 

[Hadders]

For some services, i.e. Virgin West Coast, the cost of "walk on" fares has virtually already destroyed the walk on railway. You'd have to be pretty desperate (or have an expense account) to pay on the day.

Anytime fares I agree, but an Off Peak Return from London to Manchester is £86.90, not really a rip off given the flexibility it offers.

One of the problems we have in this country is the lack of capacity. Take the 0616 VTWC from Euston to Manchester which arrives at 0828. The train is quiet until it calls at Stoke on Trent at 0800 where it becomes wedged with commuters heading for a days work in Manchester.

You could ban the good people of Stoke from using this train by saying it's compulsory reservations but where would they go. The Northern stoppers have insufficient capacity for any more standing and I doubt if any spare paths exist to operate more services.

Realistically, there's no way to get rid of the walk on railway.

 

[lewisf]

The problem with reservations is people not using them and the seats being empty while people stand...

I can't be the only one that, for example, gets on a train at Peterborough, sees a seat reserved from Kings Cross with no one sitting in it and taking it for myself. Obviously I would move if the legitimate occupant happened to be in the toilet or at the buffet but it hasn't happened yet.

 

[nottsnurse]

My point is that I can't see why those paying the lowest fares are guarenteed a seat.

I cant add to what AM9 put so, as you seemingly didn't read it, I'll just quote it for you.

Why are some here arguing about the type of ticket affecting the entitlement to a reserved seat? Advance tickets usually cost less because:
a) the purchaser waives any flexibility of when to travel which allows the TOC to optimise loads
b) the purchaser accepts that the times that they can travel will be severely limitedWalk-up tickets usually cost more because:
a) the purchaser can change their travel time right up to the point of boarding (within the validity of their ticket type)
b) the purchaser insists on travelling when provision of the service is the most expensive to the TOC and the railway in general (especially Anytime tickets)Those are the primary reasons for advance tickets being (much) cheaper than walk-up. Unless travel is a last-minute decision, seats can be reserved for any journey (on applicable trains), so the entitlement to a reserved seat has little to do with the basic ticket price.

 

[lewisf]

I’m wondering whether a re-introduction of this policy might alleviate overcrowding on some services.

Yes, it would alleviate overcrowding by denying people the right to travel full stop. What happens if you go on a day trip and all return journeys are fully booked?

You might as well say one solution to overcrowding is to kick some people off a train when it gets too busy.

 

[Taunton]

What this achieve? You would destroy the walk on railway.

Hasn't this already been achieved with open long distance tickets at stratospheric prices and most travelling on Advances which tie them (not by choice) to only one specific train (in an every 20/30 minute "walk on" service).

In fact, such is the penalty for not making your specific service that many now arrive at their starting station before the previous service to their destination has left, but are not allowed to use it.

 

[Polarbear]

I cant add to what AM9 put so, as you seemingly didn't read it, I'll just quote it for you.

With respect, I did read through the thread. I am entitled to my opinion, as is everyone else on the forum. Whilst AM9 states the entitlement to
to a reserved seat has little to do with the basic ticket price, it is a factor nonetheless.

 

[al78]

Anytime fares I agree, but an Off Peak Return from London to Manchester is £86.90, not really a rip off given the flexibility it offers.

Maybe not rip off, but still very expensive, compared to half the price for petrol if I drive. It is even worse if multiple people are travelling, put three passengers in my car and the petrol would only be slightly more, but the rail far would cost over £260.

I have used walk-up fares when travelling from Horsham to Manchester, the cost is a little less than £100, when I want to travel during a national holiday period to visit family and all the advance tickets have gone. I pay it pecause I can afford it and am trying to be environmentally responsible.

 

[al78]

Hasn't this already been achieved with open long distance tickets at stratospheric prices and most travelling on Advances which tie them (not by choice) to only one specific train (in an every 20/30 minute "walk on" service).

In fact, such is the penalty for not making your specific service that many now arrive at their starting station before the previous service to their destination has left, but are not allowed to use it.

But isn't that the trade off for buying a cut price ticket, a loss of flexibility? Isn't that the same with most products and services, if you buy cheap there is a reason it is cheap, it is either less functional, lower service, or crap?

 

[Hadders]

Maybe not rip off, but still very expensive, compared to half the price for petrol if I drive. It is even worse if multiple people are travelling, put three passengers in my car and the petrol would only be slightly more, but the rail far would cost over £260.

I have used walk-up fares when travelling from Horsham to Manchester, the cost is a little less than £100, when I want to travel during a national holiday period to visit family and all the advance tickets have gone. I pay it pecause I can afford it and am trying to be environmentally responsible.

At the risk of going off topic you're not comparing like with like. The costs of motoring are much higher than the cost of fuel. You have to factor in depreciation, tax, servicing, tyres, insurance etc.

When there are multiple people travelling the private car will almost certainly be cheaper than public transport.

£44 each way for a flexible off peak return that can be purchased on the day of travel for London to Manchester which is around 165 miles each way in a fraction over 2 hours each way is reasonably decent value. This can be reduced further if you qualify for a railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the risk of going off topic you're not comparing like with like. The costs of motoring are much higher than the cost of fuel. You have to factor in depreciation, tax, servicing, tyres, insurance etc.

You don’t, though. A marginal extra car journey costs little more than fuel when the car is necessary for other reasons or is a lifestyle choice.

 

[Dai Corner]

You don’t, though. A marginal extra car journey costs little more than fuel when the car is necessary for other reasons or is a lifestyle choice.

An equivalent Railcard would cost (say) £2000 a year, give an 85% discount, allow up to four more passengers to travel at no sdditional cost and guarantee the whole party seats together.