Ideas/Predictions for 185s if Nothern Hub goes ahead

[Philip]

What do you think would/should happen to the numerous 185s that would be freed up and cascaded if the electrification of North and NW TPE goes ahead as planned?

 

[Aictos]

What do you think would/should happen to the numerous 185s that would be freed up and cascaded if the electrification of North and NW TPE goes ahead as planned?

Easy, extend the remaining Class 185 services from what ever 3 car services exist to 6 car operation thus instant 100% increase in seating capacity.

That would be the best use for them.

 

[northwichcat]

The release of the Scottish 185s will just put TPE back where they were before they took on the Scottish services. Blackpool electrification will allow more 6 car operation on North TPE.

When you say 'as planned' for North TPE what exactly do you mean, as Hull, Middlesbrough and Scarborough aren't confirmed as being electrified, with Scarborough unlikely to be approved as per the Network Rail electrification RUS.

 

[Wath Yard]

There are numerous possible service they could be used on but wherever they go should start a cascade with 185s replacing 158s or 156s which in turn replace 150s, which replace 142 that get scrapped. The 142s will be 30 years old by then and have served their purpose but are ready for replacement.

Depending on the number of 185s made available a couple of possibilities would be:

1. Keep them up north and replace 158s on various Northern services and cascade the 158s. This would mean the purpose built maintenance facilities at Manchester and York could still be used to maintain them.

2. If there are enough to replace all SWTs 158s/159s then send them there and cascade their current fleet. This would keep them all in one place to keep things simple, but I'm not sure SWT would want them as they seem pretty adept at maintaining their 158s/159s.

The worst thing that could happen is to send a few here, there and everywhere.

 

[northwichcat]

2. If there are enough to replace all SWTs 158s/159s then send them there and cascade their current fleet. This would keep them all in one place to keep things simple, but I'm not sure SWT would want them as they seem pretty adept at maintaining their 158s/159s.

Plus they'd have much higher running costs with no real performances advantages on the routes SWT use 158/9s on.

The worst thing that could happen is to send a few here, there and everywhere.

Yep. If the Northern Hub plans are approved in full there are plenty of possible 185 routes e.g. TPE North West services going to Sheffield instead of Manchester Airport, Calder Vale including Airport/Chester extensions and Blackpool to York/Scarborough. Liverpool to Norwich is another possibly but they'd need better seating in standard class before they can be put on 5 hour journeys.

 

[Yew]

Yep. If the Northern Hub plans are approved in full there are plenty of possible 185 routes e.g. TPE North West services going to Sheffield instead of Manchester Airport, Calder Vale including Airport/Chester extensions and Blackpool to York/Scarborough. Liverpool to Norwich is another possibly but they'd need better seating in standard class before they can be put on 5 hour journeys.

I cant see emt being too happy losing their 158's

 

[ainsworth74]

Point of order, Northern Hub is a Network Rail led project whilst Transpennine Electrification is a separate DfT/Treasury led project (but will be delivered by Network Rail). They are not one and the same.

As for the 185s I would suggest that the first priority has to be using them to double up existing services and remove 170s from TPE South services (meaning Hull - Manchester should be able to operate as doubled up 170s). The second priority should be a) to keep them together and b) keep them in north so as to take advantage of the purpose built maintenance facilities in York and Manchester. Certainly it strikes me that there are plenty of places that a 3-car DMU could be employed successfully (probably displacing 158s, which then displace 155/156s, which displace 150s, which lead to the scrapping of 14xs).

 

[dosxuk]

Liverpool to Norwich is another possibly but they'd need better seating in standard class before they can be put on 5 hour journeys.

And them clearing for SP speeds across the fens or it'll be a 6 hour journey.

 

[Aictos]

The release of the Scottish 185s will just put TPE back where they were before they took on the Scottish services. Blackpool electrification will allow more 6 car operation on North TPE.

.

Which is pretty close to what I said above,

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The logical thing is to put them on Calder Valley line services, and maybe Liverpool-Sheffield-Norwich as well as boosting exisiting South Transpennine.
They could also be used on Manchester-Cardiff.
All these would keep them at Ardwick for maintenance.

If they go elsewhere I should have thought Waterloo-Exeter and/or Portsmouth-Bristol would be suitable, based at Salisbury.

It's not really clear yet how many will be freed up by electrification (which will be progressive, they won't all come free at the same time).
If they can't use their 100mph top speed it will be a waste (not many of the above routes qualify).

 

[Donny Dave]

There's 1 thing that makes me laugh about all these topics about where the 185s can go....

People say they are overweight and not enough capacity on them, but then go on to suggest they would be better of being re-deployed to the area they live ....

My suggestion. Keep them with TPE and get rid of the 170s (perhaps they can go to LM so they can get rid of the 153s they have). Once the NW/Scotland/Newcastle services go over to EMU operation, the remaining TPE routes can be operated by 185s (in some cases, doubled up 185s). Depending on how many 185s are released by EMUs, the York - Blackpool service can go over to 185 operation, possibly extended to Scarborough.

 

[Wath Yard]

The release of the Scottish 185s will just put TPE back where they were before they took on the Scottish services. Blackpool electrification will allow more 6 car operation on North TPE.

When you say 'as planned' for North TPE what exactly do you mean, as Hull, Middlesbrough and Scarborough aren't confirmed as being electrified, with Scarborough unlikely to be approved as per the Network Rail electrification RUS.

The services most likely to be 6 car are the Liverpool - Newcastle and these will be replaced by EMUs when the North TPE line is electrified.

If Scarborough and Middlesbrough don't get wired, which is fairly likely, then I suspect they will also lose their through services with a shuttle starting at York connecting with Newcastle or York - Liverpool EMUs. Therefore, there is a good possibility of a fair number of 185s being available.

 

[GNERman]

Easy, extend the remaining Class 185 services from what ever 3 car services exist to 6 car operation thus instant 100% increase in seating capacity.

I'll second that.

However, should there be spares...

EMT for Liverpool - Norwich?

Then 158's to FGW/Northern, then displace, displace until further 142's go into store...

FGW for Cardiff - Portsmouth?

Then 158's to EMT/Northern, then displace, displace until further 142's go into store...

 

[Lampshade]

...the York - Blackpool service can go over to 185 operation, possibly extended to Scarborough.

Pointless as 185s will be restricted to 25mph over Copy Pit. Extend it to Scarborough by all means, but it needs to be kept 158 operated.

 

[Jeremy B]

There's 1 thing that makes me laugh about all these topics about where the 185s can go....

People say they are overweight and not enough capacity on them, but then go on to suggest they would be better of being re-deployed to the area they live .....

I concur. There seems to be this ongoing obsession with transferring to either the Norwich to Sheffield or Portsmouth to Cardiff services.

 

[GNERman]

Pointless as 185s will be restricted to 25mph over Copy Pit. Extend it to Scarborough by all means, but it needs to be kept 158 operated.

Also completely agree, and cut out all stations between Leeds ad York, replace with an hourly stopper LDS-YRK only.

 

[northwichcat]

There's 1 thing that makes me laugh about all these topics about where the 185s can go....

People say they are overweight and not enough capacity on them, but then go on to suggest they would be better of being re-deployed to the area they live.

The 185s are best suited to hilly routes, I think we can all agree on that, so cross-Pennine routes aren't the worse routes for them to be on.

If you refurbished a 150 to the same style as a 185 how many seats would it have? I don't know the exact answer but it would mean the 150 would have a lot less seats. Look at that in reverse and you have a solution for increasing capacity.
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I cant see emt being too happy losing their 158's

The EMT franchise will have ended by the time 185s are available to cascade on to new routes. It could even be that a Stagecoach company gets the cascaded EMT 158s!

 

[Train jaune]

I'm with ajax103 on this one. 3 car services need extending to 6 cars. Into Manchester Piccadilly it's like cattle trucks at the moment from Lancs stations

 

[IanXC]

I'd like to see the TPE 170s cascaded to CrossCountry to allow their Turbostar routes to operate with more capacity. Then the 185s used on Blackpool-York (probably Scarborough), Leeds-Nottingham and Leeds-Carlisle.

Then a cascade within Northern allowing for extra capacity and the retirement of the worst of the Pacer fleet.

 

[tbtc]

(bear in mind that we don't know what the franchise map will look like post Northern Hub/Electrification/ how much electrification there will be/ what service patterns there will be, so any actual argument about numbers is a little hypothetical...)

1. Put 185s on the TPE 170 diagrams (the 170s are only two coaches, and can be easier assimilated into other TOC fleets - FSR/ LM/ XC/ GA/ SN...) - maybe the 170s could release some Sprinters (from these operators) to Northern?

2. Double up 185s on the busiest sections of routes that they continue to run (e.g. if any remain on any services through Huddersfield then ensure that they are doubled up at least between Leeds and Manchester)

3. As the 185 fleet isn't huge and is based in northern England, the logical next place for them would be on the Caldervale lines (esp if the Grand Tour is split, allowing units to be concentrated on the Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Rochdale - Manchester service)

As a result of the above I can't see them going on Cardiff - Portsmouth (which may be split at Bristol due to GWML electrification) or Liverpool - Norwich (lack of corridor connections etc), or any other "pet projects"

 

[IanXC]

Thought number the next one, Scarborough has a prospect of going from 3 car 185s providing an hourly service to York and beyond to 2 car 158s doing the same. Given how little penetration rail has in Scarborough's transport, and the fact that TPEs Scarborough depot already sign the traction I think it makes a lot of sense for 185s to work Blackpool-Scarborough if that is the solution to the question of whether to electrify.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Scotland if they are good hill climbers ? - just a thought...

 

[WatcherZero]

Initially used to provide an extra Liverpool service and strengthen the odd diagram. Ultimatley, I think they will be used as a splitting Cumbrian service via Bolton to provide the needed short distance commuter capacity and a choice of Cumbrian destinations.

 

[Masboroughlad]

I'd like to see the TPE 170s cascaded to CrossCountry to allow their Turbostar routes to operate with more capacity. Then the 185s used on Blackpool-York (probably Scarborough), Leeds-Nottingham and Leeds-Carlisle.

Then a cascade within Northern allowing for extra capacity and the retirement of the worst of the Pacer fleet.

I'd agree. Only thing I would add would be put them on Nottingham - Carlisle via S&C direct.

 

[judethegreat]

Would Leeds (or Nottingham)-Glasgow services via the S&C be viable (I mean generally)?

 

[Philip]

Initially used to provide an extra Liverpool service and strengthen the odd diagram. Ultimatley, I think they will be used as a splitting Cumbrian service via Bolton to provide the needed short distance commuter capacity and a choice of Cumbrian destinations.

This seems to be my thinking as well. That would need 10 or 11 185s in itself and the WCML blast would utilise their top speed.

Blackpool to York is a slow route most of the way, would seem a waste of their speed potential to have them trundling along at 50-70 most of the way.

Manchester-Cardiff isn't a bad shout. The route is fast all the way to Cardiff and it would mean ATW could finally get some first class this way. 185s replacing 2 car 175s which could then be used to strengthen some Llandudno diagrams?

 

[Jonny]

The services most likely to be 6 car are the Liverpool - Newcastle and these will be replaced by EMUs when the North TPE line is electrified.

If Scarborough and Middlesbrough don't get wired, which is fairly likely, then I suspect they will also lose their through services with a shuttle starting at York connecting with Newcastle or York - Liverpool EMUs. Therefore, there is a good possibility of a fair number of 185s being available.

The way York station is laid out in terms of track connections to the North, the least disruptive option is to change to shuttles brought into Platform 2 which can only access the Scarborough lines anyway.

 

[150222]

Pointless as 185s will be restricted to 25mph over Copy Pit. Extend it to Scarborough by all means, but it needs to be kept 158 operated.

Why? Anyway, even so it's hardly a million mile journey is it? WC 47's go round there at a fair speed. Or just put them on YRK/LDS-MCV/MIA via Todmorden services.

 

[transmanche]

Would Leeds (or Nottingham)-Glasgow services via the S&C be viable (I mean generally)?

If operated as a joint service with ScotRail, as Northern do with the Newcastle-Glasgow via Carlisle service... then I don't see why not.

 

[150222]

The 185s are best suited to hilly routes, I think we can all agree on that, so cross-Pennine routes aren't the worse routes for them to be on.

If you refurbished a 150 to the same style as a 185 how many seats would it have? I don't know the exact answer but it would mean the 150 would have a lot less seats. Look at that in reverse and you have a solution for increasing capacity.

The EMT franchise will have ended by the time 185s are available to cascade on to new routes. It could even be that a Stagecoach company gets the cascaded EMT 158s!

You can't put a 150 interior in one! Firstly it would be incredibly unpopular with the trains users. Secondly, It would make a DDA compliant train non-DDA compliant. Anyway as well as morally it's also physically impossible to put the interior from a 150 (or even a 450) as the bodyshell on a 185 isn't wide enough due to 23m length cars. All trains with 3x2 seating have 20m bodyshells (except 323). Including classes 150, 450 ETC.