Ideas to enforce mandatory reservations even for local journeys

[AdamWW]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eisure-journeys-allowed-or-not.206316/page-15

...to take the Cambrian as an example, we should be telling people that it is OK to travel between Pwllheli and Harlech, and Towyn and Machynlleth, where the train is almost empty, but not between Harlech and Towyn where they are already well loaded ....

It's not entirely clear to me why you couldn't do that.

Or even have some system where you could obtain permission in advance to use a certain train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or even have some system where you could obtain permission in advance to use a certain train.

Now, if only someone had invented a system like that

It'd need a snappy name...."save me a seat"? I know, how about "reservations".

 

[AdamWW]

Now, if only someone had invented a system like that

It'd need a snappy name...."save me a seat"? I know, how about "reservations".

Do you know...you've got a point there!

More seriously, as I said above it seems that the Welsh government are indeed thinking of some kind of reservation scheme, with trials on TrawsCymru buses in "autumn"....

 

[PHILIPE]

Ironically, TfW seem to have abolished reservations at present, on the Cambrian at least.

As I posted previously, officially there is only room for a small number of people on each train anyway, reserved or otherwise. I had hoped that they would release more seats on each train once masks became compulsory, but the current overloading of South and North Wales services I suspect means that they are highly unlikely to do anything to encourage even more people on.

I think the non-availability of reservations has been there since lockdown started, certainly for a while

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you know...you've got a point there!

More seriously, as I said above it seems that the Welsh government are indeed thinking of some kind of reservation scheme, with trials on TrawsCymru buses in "autumn"....

The railway of course already has it - you just need to input the coach layouts (where not already done) and turn it on!

 

[AdamWW]

The railway of course already has it - you just need to input the coach layouts (where not already done) and turn it on!

I know.

But it seems that it isn't as simple as that.

And to be fair for local trains the current reservation system probably isn't flexible enough, given that once you've bought a ticket you can only change a reservation at a ticket office.

 

[Belperpete]

More seriously, as I said above it seems that the Welsh government are indeed thinking of some kind of reservation scheme, with trials on TrawsCymru buses in "autumn"....

This is going to be a nightmare for those whose journey involves a reservation on a TrawsCymru bus and a reservation on a train, unless the two reservation systems are integrated. Not everybody lives walking distance from a station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is going to be a nightmare for those whose journey involves a reservation on a TrawsCymru bus and a reservation on a train, unless the two reservation systems are integrated. Not everybody lives walking distance from a station.

How's about entering the buses into the railway system, with routed fares, and selling them that way?

 

[AdamWW]

This is going to be a nightmare for those whose journey involves a reservation on a TrawsCymru bus and a reservation on a train, unless the two reservation systems are integrated. Not everybody lives walking distance from a station.

Yep.

But perhaps an improvement over the current situation where you're not supposed to use them at all.

I don't know how often TrawsCymru buses would be used to get to a station - I don't imagine they are mostly used for local travel.

 

[JonathanH]

Reservation is happening on buses in the Bristol area. It doesn't seem to be mandatory but maybe that could be a future step if it catches on.

https://www.firstgroup.com/bristol-.../‘book-my-bus-ride’-uk-’s-first-scheduled-bus

From today, customers travelling on the Brislington Park and Ride service will be able to book their space ahead of their journey as part of a new pilot. This will be extended to journeys on the 3a service from Batheaston to Weston in Bath from 3 August (also bookable from today) and on the T1 service between Bristol and Thornbury from 10 August (bookable from 3 August). Bookable buses on these services will be renumbered as 3b and T1b to denote that booking is available.

This innovative new service comes as First continues to find ways to use technology to improve the experience for its customers. It follows recent changes to First’s app, which now enables customers to track the location and seat availability of their bus. Along with social distancing measures on its buses and an enhanced cleaning regime, it forms a package of measures to ensure customers are able to make informed and safe journeys on First’s buses and comes at a time when the government has changed its advice to make it clear that anybody can use public transport.

The ‘Book my bus ride’ initiative is being pioneered by First West of England in partnership with the West of England Combined Authority (WECA) and is believed to be the first system of its kind operating on regular, scheduled bus services in the UK.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Reservation is happening on buses in the Bristol area. It doesn't seem to be mandatory but maybe that could be a future step if it catches on.

‘Book my bus ride’ The UK ’s first scheduled bus booking system to be trialled in the West of England. | Bristol, Bath and the West | First Bus

First West of England has launched the first ever booking system for spaces on its buses.

www.firstgroup.com

I just don't think First want to be in business anymore, but can't quite leave quietly.

Has this system been devised by a car driver who never uses the bus? So 35 (or whatever the capacity of a bus is now) pensioners / season ticket holders reserve all available seats and then don't show up. The bus runs empty and other intending passengers are left behind. And the government will fund the empty bus until it's patience finally wears out and First are left wondering just where there income is now going to come from.

Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.

Is it even legal under local bus service registration rules?

 

[py_megapixel]

Reservation is happening on buses in the Bristol area. It doesn't seem to be mandatory but maybe that could be a future step if it catches on.

‘Book my bus ride’ The UK ’s first scheduled bus booking system to be trialled in the West of England. | Bristol, Bath and the West | First Bus

First West of England has launched the first ever booking system for spaces on its buses.

www.firstgroup.com

Oh great, so now I'm being encouraged to rigidly fit my travel plans around a specific bus. And if I don't then there is a greater chance of being turned away because half the space is reserved for people who booked in advance, whether they turn up or not.

You know what's better than convoluted systems? Actually running a service frequently enough that having to wait for the next bus isn't a big deal. But, as @Baxenden Bank says, I don't believe FirstGroup particularly care about their service anymore.

This is a publicity stunt. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Belperpete]

Yep.

But perhaps an improvement over the current situation where you're not supposed to use them at all.

I don't know how often TrawsCymru buses would be used to get to a station - I don't imagine they are mostly used for local travel.

The Bangor - Aberystwyth service is used for a mix of local and long-distance journeys, with a lot of local journeys around Caernarfon and Porthmadog. With the demise of Express Motors, who used to run the local service, the Traws Cymru was used to fill the hole. As well as the local journeys, it is used by passengers going to catch the train at Bangor, and Machynlleth.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If your hospital appointment overruns - you lose your money as tickets aren't transferable to alternative journey.
If you are making a connection between a non-bookable bus and a bookable bus, is the connection guaranteed, no you lose your money.
If your train is late ditto.
If you work at the hosptial and your shift overruns, ditto.
Heaven forbid there is traffic congestion or a bus breaks down.
If you are out shopping, you will be constantly looking at your watch to avoid missing your bus.

Looked on the website. FWE timetables say all 3b is 'advance bookings only' whilst the booking site (and press releases) say only 50% of seats can be booked.

Another measure to ensure that those who rely on bus services know that they are completely unwelcome - except in very specific circumstances. The death knell of local public transport was sounded on 27 July 2020. Remember the date well.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Yep.

But perhaps an improvement over the current situation where you're not supposed to use them at all.

I don't know how often TrawsCymru buses would be used to get to a station - I don't imagine they are mostly used for local travel.

With the exception of the Cardiff Airport service (which is such a spectacular success at transporting fresh air to the airport and back again that local passengers are now carried), TrawsCymru is based upon local bus services dressed up as something fancy with a brand and logo. They are slow and meander allover the place to mop up as many passengers as possible. If they were a genuine express service, overlaid on top of a good local all stops service, I could accept an element of pre-booking.

I can only imagine that the proposed trial has been devised by someone that does not, and never intends to, rely on the bus as a means of achieving their already severely impacted day to day life.

 

[py_megapixel]

Another measure to ensure that those who rely on bus services know that they are completely unwelcome - except in very specific circumstances. The death knell of local public transport was sounded on 27 July 2020. Remember the date well.

While I think you're being a little extreme, I couldn't agree more with your general point.

Bus transport is an incredibly simple concept. One vehicle transports dozens of passengers at a pre-determined schedule with each paying a small fee each time they board to go towards the cost of operation. A number of companies have tried to tamper with this system(for that we have to thank deregulation, in part, but that's for another thread). None have really worked except driver only operation, but that predates privatisation.

Rather than unusual, farfetched innovations, what is needed is perfection of the basic system - in other words, a solid, no-nonsense, frequent and well-designed service which everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) can use, regardless of anything from ownership of an electronic device to confinement to a wheelchair.

 

[Belperpete]

Bus transport is an incredibly simple concept. One vehicle transports dozens of passengers at a pre-determined schedule with each paying a small fee each time they board to go towards the cost of operation. A number of companies have tried to tamper with this system(for that we have to thank deregulation, in part, but that's for another thread). None have really worked except driver only operation, but that predates privatisation.

Rather than unusual, farfetched innovations, what is needed is perfection of the basic system - in other words, a solid, no-nonsense, frequent and well-designed service which everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) can use, regardless of anything from ownership of an electronic device to confinement to a wheelchair.

Unfortunately, this virus propagates best when people spend time close together in an enclosed environment. If you are doing it with a random selection of changing strangers, then that both increases your chances of coming into contact with an infected person, and also makes contact tracing almost impossible.

Measures to reduce the risk of infection to acceptable levels mean that occupancy levels have to be reduced. There are then two options - increase the service levels to accommodate everybody who wants to travel (which would require even more subsidy), or reduce the numbers travelling. Or just let everyone pile on as before, and hope to god that none of them are infected.

 

[py_megapixel]

Unfortunately, this virus propagates best when people spend time close together in an enclosed environment. If you are doing it with a random selection of changing strangers, then that both increases your chances of coming into contact with an infected person, and also makes contact tracing almost impossible.

Measures to reduce the risk of infection to acceptable levels mean that occupancy levels have to be reduced. There are then two options - increase the service levels to accommodate everybody who wants to travel (which would require even more subsidy), or reduce the numbers travelling. Or just let everyone pile on as before, and hope to god that none of them are infected.

I don't deny that. But limiting passenger numbers on buses is nothing new - some if not all operators advise drivers to deny boarding if passengers would have to stand in an unsafe position. All that's required is to reduce those limits and have drivers either count passengers on and off or check how many seats are full which as far as I can see is what has been done this whole time, no complicated pre-booking system needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh great, so now I'm being encouraged to rigidly fit my travel plans around a specific bus. And if I don't then there is a greater chance of being turned away because half the space is reserved for people who booked in advance, whether they turn up or not.

You know what's better than convoluted systems? Actually running a service frequently enough that having to wait for the next bus isn't a big deal. But, as @Baxenden Bank says, I don't believe FirstGroup particularly care about their service anymore.

This is a publicity stunt. Nothing more, nothing less.

I would agree in the context of a city service running every 10 minutes or so. I might even agree in the context of the relatively frequent services running on the North Wales Coast and around Cardiff.

However, most Welsh bus services are not like that, they are infrequent, rural affairs with hourly or worse frequencies, so in practice you already do have to plan which bus to catch. Extending that to reserving a seat is really not a big jump, and being able to guarantee a seat on the last bus home is something with considerable benefit, because if you can't get on a taxi, if you can find one (no Uber in the middle of nowhere, it's one man bands), is going to really cost you.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I would agree in the context of a city service running every 10 minutes or so. I might even agree in the context of the relatively frequent services running on the North Wales Coast and around Cardiff.

However, most Welsh bus services are not like that, they are infrequent, rural affairs with hourly or worse frequencies, so in practice you already do have to plan which bus to catch. Extending that to reserving a seat is really not a big jump, and being able to guarantee a seat on the last bus home is something with considerable benefit, because if you can't get on a taxi, if you can find one (no Uber in the middle of nowhere, it's one man bands), is going to really cost you.

Passengers will simply desert public transport and make alternative arrangements, which seems to be the general thrust of the policy - walking, cycling etc. Make something sufficiently unnattractive and the demand will naturally fade away. Such a policy has some benefits of course (environmental, physical exercise). However there are drawbacks - what if they all pile in their cars instead, what implication does the policy have on company profits / levels of public support required and, to my mind rather critical (as per the other thread), what about the people left behind. Where it is too far to walk etc, or they have a mobility problem, or cannot afford / access the alternatives? The risk is that we create a sizeable chunk of the population who are denied access (on reasonable terms) to all manner of goods and services.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

While I think you're being a little extreme, I couldn't agree more with your general point.

Bus transport is an incredibly simple concept. One vehicle transports dozens of passengers at a pre-determined schedule with each paying a small fee each time they board to go towards the cost of operation. A number of companies have tried to tamper with this system(for that we have to thank deregulation, in part, but that's for another thread). None have really worked except driver only operation, but that predates privatisation.

Rather than unusual, farfetched innovations, what is needed is perfection of the basic system - in other words, a solid, no-nonsense, frequent and well-designed service which everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) can use, regardless of anything from ownership of an electronic device to confinement to a wheelchair.

Yes, perhaps a little over the top, but I was absolutely astounded when I read the linked press release. I do think there is the risk that this is the thin end of the wedge however. That it reveals an underlying attitude of contempt for the people that (in the past anyway) paid their salaries. A gripe I have about First in general.

By solving one problem (key workers worried about getting to work etc) they have simply created a greater problem to a larger number of their customers ie the casual user who is not able to plan to that degree. They are saying 'public transport is for a very restricted number of people' ie it is no longer public transport, it is private transport. That being the case, why not de-register the service and run contract buses, as per the fleet serving the workers at the new nuke at Hinckley Point? The obvious next step once they have identified (through the booking system) who their regular customers are and where they are travelling to/from.

The following thought also occured, deep into last night:
First have received a visit from a technology salesman, someone at a high level foolishly fell for the sales spin and signed up to an expensive software product, they are now desperately trying to find as many uses as possible for that under-utilised product. A solution looking for a problem. Done it before? Think Streetcar, think bendi-buses, think Boris buses.

 

[Energy]

Local transport should be turn up on go in large towns and cities with frequent services, if reservations are needed on infrequent services so you can guarantee a seat then you should probably think about a more frequent service even if it needs say a smaller bus. On long distance services then reservations make sense.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Local transport should be turn up on go in large towns and cities with frequent services, if reservations are needed on infrequent services so you can guarantee a seat then you should probably think about a more frequent service even if it needs say a smaller bus. On long distance services then reservations make sense.

Agreed! I'd be a bit weary of reservations on buses - although that would be great for longer services.
I hope if reservations can be made on long-distance bus journeys that they don't make the front ones (buses that have front seats nearest the door but diagonally opposite the drivers cab) unreservable.

Given the new livery that will soon be present on all Stagecoach buses, I think Stagecoach should introduce seat reservations on the yellow bus services (yellow is for longer services for those that don't know).

 

[Energy]

Agreed! I'd be a bit weary of reservations on buses - although that would be great for longer services.
I hope if reservations can be made on long-distance bus journeys that they don't make the front ones (buses that have front seats nearest the door but diagonally opposite the drivers cab) unreservable.

Given the new livery that will soon be present on all Stagecoach buses, I think Stagecoach should introduce seat reservations on the yellow bus services (yellow is for longer services for those that don't know).

Stagecoach seem to be rather slow on their new livery, could work in the future though.

 

[py_megapixel]

Stagecoach seem to be rather slow on their new livery, could work in the future though.

Depends on area. I've heard Manchester in particular is rattling through them quite fast while other regions have barely started.

The main problem with reservations on the "yellow" routes is whether the local operators will apply the correct livery, and also fleets which change between longer and shorter routes or routes which serve both purposes... a blanket policy just doesn't work

 

[squizzler]

Is the idea behind this that your contact tracing details are captured in the app? I am not behind this in principle.

I also don’t think the principle of buying travel prior to boarding is necessarily the bugaboo that’s people think it would be. There are taxi services - American brands “Uber” and “Lyft” spring to mind - whose users are willing to hail using similar apps, in fact I think these firms encourage it over the conventional raised arm, and which seem to be used just as spontaneously in this manner by their customers as other cabs.

 

[route101]

Dont want to see reservations on local or short journeys. Same with advance tickets on short journeys. I like the turn up and go approach.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Is the idea behind this that your contact tracing details are captured in the app? I am not behind this in principle.

I also don’t think the principle of buying travel prior to boarding is necessarily the bugaboo that’s people think it would be. There are taxi services - American brands “Uber” and “Lyft” spring to mind - whose users are willing to hail using similar apps, in fact I think these firms encourage it over the conventional raised arm, and which seem to be used just as spontaneously in this manner by their customers as other cabs.

Taxis (or private hire) are not buses, and t'other way round. If First want to become a pre-book only private hire service, fine, let them go forth a buy a few thousand family saloon cars. If they wish to exit the turn-up-and-go bus market, there is nothing stopping them. They want the best of both worlds, including at present massive public subsidy for a service from which they are actively discouraging the same public from using.

Do you really know how long you will be in the dentist in order to book your return journey, will they be running late? Do you deliberately book a later journey then end up hanging around, do you book an on-time return journey then lose the money (because, like rail Advances, they are not amendable), or do you pay for two (or more) return journeys on successive buses just in case. Might as well see how it goes and then call a taxi and go door-to-door without having to share. Presumably there is something to stop ENCTS (or season ticket holders) from booking multiple successive journeys, just in case, as it costs them nothing on top of their existing pass.

As an aside, the 'conventional raised arm' is illegal for hailing a private hire, which includes Uber and the like. You must be pre-booked. Only a Hackney Carriage may be hailed on demand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach seem to be rather slow on their new livery, could work in the future though.

The X5 (which won't I believe be getting the horrid school bus yellow) sort of does offer reservations - it's on megabus.com - but only for end to end journeys. That's the sort of service where I could see it working quite well - particularly as there are no standees allowed, so people are often left behind when it's busy even normally.

 

[MarkyT]

My take on all this is any system proposed needs to be considered a smart 'check in' rather than a traditional rail reservation system. There must absolutely not be a penalty for changing a booked seat, and last minute check in and amendments should be positively encouraged via phone app in order to best dynamically manage emerging capacity on board. So to run through a scenario, tickets would be sold either fully open for day of travel or for travel on a particular leg during a time window. If at time of sale outward travel was intended to be immediate or shortly afterwards, you would be able to check in to a particular service which has capacity at the same time. Fare offers could encourage use of a less busy service. If a return leg is purchased at the same time, best offers would NOT include the reservation immediately, rather a time band might be offered. Closer to time of travel for that leg you'd be notified to check in at which point again pricing (even partial refunds) might be offered to nudge people towards less busy departures. The data rich environment could be used to better plan services, strengthen services in real time, even run additional services at short notice in special Q-paths perhaps. Deep discount quota controlled advance purchase could still be available, but would neccesarily become slightly more flexible, and that would be a good thing for customers AND operators as it avoids so many unused uncancelled seat reservations needlessly clogging up the system. Say you'd bought a £5 special 3 months in advance for a weds afternoon between 13:00 & 16:00. Now you can't use it for some reason. You wouldn't be able to get your money back just as now, but because you weren't travelling you never bothered to check in to convert your booking to a seat allocation on a particular train so that seat remains available for others. Would work best as part of a general move towards fair single leg pricing.