Ideas to reopen the leisure & tourism sectors if social distancing is to continue

[greyman42]

West Midlands and Bedfordshire for one, I don't know of any pub that's "dead" outside weekends, certainly not everyone's favourite go to chain eg Wetherspoons.

I never meant that places were dead, just quiet. I live in York, a relatively affluent city and a tourist hotspot. During the week, even with the large influx of tourists, pubs are at a capacity where you can easily keep a metre or so from others, should you wish to. The weekend I admit is a different matter.

 

[greyman42]

Give it a few weeks and I do think the British attitude of ‘Sod it, these things happen, if I get it I get it’ will appear, hopefully with ‘but I’d better not go too near grandma’.

I think it is already happening.

 

[greyman42]

I've got a feeling we won't be seeing cinemas, pubs and restaurants opening before 2021 despite what the government says. Let's be honest, do you really want to be sitting in a crowded pub, full to the brim with people with smokers cough?

I would be there tomorrow given the chance and before lockdown pubs were not full of people with smokers cough. Not everyone is terrified of this virus.

 

[nidave]

I would be there tomorrow given the chance and before lockdown pubs were not full of people with smokers cough. Not everyone is terrified of this virus.

I hope you're right, the last thing I want is a high street where the only place to drink is a Wetherspoons...

 

[BJames]

I would be there tomorrow given the chance and before lockdown pubs were not full of people with smokers cough. Not everyone is terrified of this virus.

Seconded. Once pubs reopen to the vast majority of people I expect they will be busy.

 

[Bantamzen]

But track and trace doesn't stop you getting it - you just know earlier that you may have got it. It's all about reducing your infecting others by getting you to self isolate sooner rather than waiting for symptoms. It "may" help you survuve if if you know sooner and can get medical help sooner. So, for society as a whole it obviously helps and is necessary. But, it won't stop a vulnerable person getting it if it's still out there - it will hopefully reduce the risk by reducing the number of people walking around with it. I don't really see it ending the lockdown for the vulnerable in the short to medium term at all. There are a lot of people with, say, diabetes, heart conditions, and some cancers who would normally be going to work, going to football matches, concerts, theatres, festivals, pubs, cafes, etc that won't be for many months. To some extent that fits in with lower numbers of customers for those businesses/events so that will improve social distancing by default, but it also means far lower incomes for them too which begs the question are they viable to re-open?

In reality there is no guaranteed way of stopping people getting the virus, but track and trace will help inform people, especially those likely to be more vulnerable. So if the app alerts someone with say cancer that they may have been exposed, they can immediately seek help from their consultants, get tested for it and so on. As health professionals start to understand the best ways to treat people, they will also understand more about how to prepare people that are testing positive but not yet symptomatic. So people from vulnerable groups could make informed choices about their lifestyle rather than being in a semi-permanent state of imprisonment.

 

[Enthusiast]

But the aircraft itself is only part of the bigger picture. Can they "social distance" the check in desks, security scanning, passport control, baggage reclaim, departure gates, tunnels, coaches to/from gate, shops, cafes, airport toilets, airport buses/trains, etc., etc when passenger numbers start to rise.

Not a chance. As one of Heathrow's senior managers said a week or so ago, to see the "safe" embarkation of a 747 would require a queue a kilometre long. Only around a third (tops) of the aircraft's passengers could be held in the departure gate and whilst boarding and leaving the 'plane it would be all but impossible to enforce a 2m exclusion zone. If the flight left from a remote gate that required standee buses to take passengers across the apron each bus would only be able to accommodate around twenty passengers at maximum, meaning some 20 or more bus trips would be needed. Plainly and simply, civil aviation and social distancing are mutually exclusive and the government will have to choose which it's to be.

Arrangements for those who need and/or want to isolate will have to be made and everybody else will have to make their own decisions about which activities they want to participate in. One thing's for sure - a prolonged spell like this will make certain that the cure is worse - far worse - than the disease. At present about one in 275 people (that we know of) have contracted the virus and one in about 1,900 have unfortunately died from it. Those figures need to be emphasised but I have not seen them mentioned anywhere of any prominence.

 

[Bikeman78]

Depends on how we get back to that. Some airlines are talking about banning food/drink sales on board which would help reduce the number of "interactions" and reduce loo use. Some are suggesting going further and banning "carry on" food for short flights where meals/snack simply aren't needed to reduce the risk of someone infecting themselves after touching surfaces - basically just allowing a bottle of water to drink. I've seen where queuing for toilets may be limited/banned along with the rows near toilets being left empty. At the end of the day, flying isn't going to be "risk free" so anyone wanting to fly will have to take the risk, all they can do is minimise risk. Different airlines will be trying different models of risk reduction. Obvious things like proper cleaning of all tables and other surfaces at turnaround are inevitable, as is the regular cleaning of the loos etc throughout the flight. Hopefully, people will also be sensible enough to take a pack on anti-bac wipes with them to clean their own tables, loo handle etc before use for added protection.

But the aircraft itself is only part of the bigger picture. Can they "social distance" the check in desks, security scanning, passport control, baggage reclaim, departure gates, tunnels, coaches to/from gate, shops, cafes, airport toilets, airport buses/trains, etc., etc when passenger numbers start to rise.

I've been pondering this as well. Baggage reclaim would be very tricky because no one knows in what order the cases will emerge. Where will a jumbo jet load of passengers stand waiting for the luggage to appear? No food or drink would be a complete non starter on long haul flights, especially drink.

 

[Enthusiast]

I've been pondering this as well. Baggage reclaim would be very tricky because no one knows in what order the cases will emerge. Where will a jumbo jet load of passengers stand waiting for the luggage to appear? No food or drink would be a complete non starter on long haul flights, especially drink.

It could work - if the carrier is going to arrange for luggage collection, pick the passengers up from their originating address, deliver them to the aircraft steps (one at a time in the right order so they do not have to pass already seated passengers), pick them up from the tarmac at the other end and deliver them to their destination (followed by their luggage). All that leaves is the problem of keeping them 2m apart for the duration of the flight. So I'll revise my earlier thoughts. Civil aviation and social distancing are not mutually exclusive - provided all passengers travel in the same manner as Her Majesty the Queen does.

 

[Llanigraham]

It could work - if the carrier is going to arrange for luggage collection, pick the passengers up from their originating address, deliver them to the aircraft steps (one at a time in the right order so they do not have to pass already seated passengers), pick them up from the tarmac at the other end and deliver them to their destination (followed by their luggage). All that leaves is the problem of keeping them 2m apart for the duration of the flight. So I'll revise my earlier thoughts. Civil aviation and social distancing are not mutually exclusive - provided all passengers travel in the same manner as Her Majesty the Queen does.

Have you thought that through?
if I'm flying from Gatwick, you are going to send a car all the way to Mid Wales for me, and deliver me direct to the plane? How long is that going to take and how much is it going to cost? And what about passport control, etc?
Sorry but totally impractical!

 

[al78]

We need to keep with a mindset of simply NOT coughing, sneezing, spitting near others at all and to catch it in a tissue/hankie or arm if you can't help it.

That could be tough for those of us with hayfever, where a major sneezing event can start anytime and last several minutes at a time. I have got antihistamines ready and am hoping they will alleviate the worst. As soon as it rains again, the pollen count will be sky high.

 

[Llanigraham]

That could be tough for those of us with hayfever, where a major sneezing event can start anytime and last several minutes at a time. I have got antihistamines ready and am hoping they will alleviate the worst. As soon as it rains again, the pollen count will be sky high.

Likewise!!
And one of the effects my hayfever has on me is loss of my ability to taste things, one of the things they have now decided is a symptom of C19!

 

[westv]

That could be tough for those of us with hayfever, where a major sneezing event can start anytime and last several minutes at a time. I have got antihistamines ready and am hoping they will alleviate the worst. As soon as it rains again, the pollen count will be sky high.

Presumably you use tissues?

 

[Enthusiast]

Have you thought that through?

If you read the last sentence of my post you may imagine that I probably have.

As I said earlier, civil aviation and social distancing are mutually exclusive activities. There is no point in even beginning to consider otherwise.

 

[Bikeman78]

If you read the last sentence of my post you may imagine that I probably have.

As I said earlier, civil aviation and social distancing are mutually exclusive activities. There is no point in even beginning to consider otherwise.

Indeed. Same goes for London Underground. Or eating out. Imagine having a two metre wide table. Cruise ships would be pointless too.

 

[4141]

Imagine having a two metre wide table.

Bring Back Broad Gauge!

 

[Huntergreed]

I imagine a good 80-90% of issues with tourist attractions (theme parks, zoos) and restaurants and cafes could be solved through a reservation only system, as well as major pubs like Wetherspoons. Aside from this, and keeping the vulnerable aware of the risks they face if they choose not to socially distance, I can't see much more being viable other than simply advising people to stay 1m apart which, looking at the success of the campaign so far, may actually work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine a good 80-90% of issues with tourist attractions (theme parks, zoos) and restaurants and cafes could be solved through a reservation only system, as well as major pubs like Wetherspoons. Aside from this, and keeping the vulnerable aware of the risks they face if they choose not to socially distance, I can't see much more being viable other than simply advising people to stay 1m apart which, looking at the success of the campaign so far, may actually work.

Overall, there are two ways to manage capacity at something that has limited capacity - queueing or reservations. The former presents a danger, the latter does not. Therefore, reservations are clearly the way to manage anything that has limited capacity during something like COVID where a queue may itself pose a risk.

OK, there's a third one, and that's pricing people off, either by whacking the price up in general or dynamic pricing. I think most of us would agree that in the circumstances that isn't the preferred option.

 

[underbank]

Trouble with reservations is that if all the "slots" have gone, then you're going to go hungry/thirsty. They'd need some kind of system to restrict entry to the attraction to the number of people they expect to want to eat/drink. So that leads to pre-booking entry AND refreshments in advance.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Trouble with reservations is that if all the "slots" have gone, then you're going to go hungry/thirsty. They'd need some kind of system to restrict entry to the attraction to the number of people they expect to want to eat/drink. So that leads to pre-booking entry AND refreshments in advance.

And then there's the problem of "no shows". Apparently 20 per cent of people who book restaurant tables don't turn up, meaning that restaurants may end up turning away walk up customers needlessly and lose money as a consequence. So how do you discourage "no shows"? Charge them a fee for booking in advance, which would of course make people less likely to book in advance?

This "compulsory reservations" idea, whether for pubs, restaurants or trains and buses, creates more problems than it solves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And then there's the problem of "no shows". Apparently 20 per cent of people who book restaurant tables don't turn up, meaning that restaurants may end up turning away walk up customers needlessly and lose money as a consequence. So how do you discourage "no shows"? Charge them a fee for booking in advance, which would of course make people less likely to book in advance?

That's one option, yes, charge them a deposit which is lost if you don't attend.

I don't get people walking up to restaurants (other than things like station Nandos, which are more posh fast food than restaurant), if the restaurant is any good you have almost no chance of a table. I'd mostly in normal times ring and book, even if that's an hour beforehand or just to make sure there's a table before leaving.

 

[Huntergreed]

So how do you discourage "no shows"? Charge them a fee for booking in advance, which would of course make people less likely to book in advance?

Exactly, it wouldn't make anyone less likely. If we introduced a system where you had to book in advance rather than the old one where it was just an option, people would simply do that. You could phone a restaurant and book a table and pay say a £5-10 deposit which is non refundable but deducted from the overall bill at the end so that no money is lost when you do show up. If we change the way in which the industry works so cafes, restaurants and pubs require a reservation, then the public's behaviour will change accordingly. If people don't show then they'll lose the deposit and they, hopefully, won't make the same mistake again. Of course if there are exceptional medical circumstances then this could be waived upon proof being presented.

It's not ideal in terms of a normal society, but in terms of running a society much closer to 'normal' than the draconian lockdown we're in just now, it's about as good as we can get the way I see it. It allows us to partake in the social events that make life enjoyable and worth living whilst still preventing a surge in the spread of the virus which could risk overwhelming the health board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, it wouldn't make anyone less likely. If we introduced a system where you had to book in advance rather than the old one where it was just an option, people would simply do that. You could phone a restaurant and book a table and pay say a £5-10 deposit which is non refundable but deducted from the overall bill at the end so that no money is lost when you do show up. If we change the way in which the industry works so cafes, restaurants and pubs require a reservation, then the public's behaviour will change accordingly. If people don't show then they'll lose the deposit and they, hopefully, won't make the same mistake again. Of course if there are exceptional medical circumstances then this could be waived upon proof being presented.

The most visible example of this working very quickly is the cinema industry's switch from paying at the desk to advance booking, which it did by way of offering the benefit of seat selection. This was primarily done to save money on staffing ticket desks, but either way behaviour did change, and very quickly, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not ideal in terms of a normal society, but in terms of running a society much closer to 'normal' than the draconian lockdown we're in just now, it's about as good as we can get the way I see it. It allows us to partake in the social events that make life enjoyable and worth living whilst still preventing a surge in the spread of the virus which could risk overwhelming the health board.

Yes, this. Having to advance-book everything is mildly inconvenient, but is an easy way to prevent queueing and disappointment. It's not like it's difficult in these days of smartphones (it's far less difficult than being turned away from several restaurants because they're full), and if you're an absolute smartphone refusenik you can always pick up your Bakelite phone and call from your landline if you prefer.

 

[Enthusiast]

An additional problem with pubs is that some people pop in for a swift half, some for a session, some for a drink followed by a meal followed by a coffee. So, I book a table for 7pm. Do I have to choose a departure time? What happens if I want to stay a little longer? What happens if my meal takes a little longer than expected to arrive? Do I get chucked out half way through my rump steak? Who makes sure I leave on time? How do they do so? Pubs are not restaurants. Since some countries are using 1m for social distancing, some 1.5m, some 2m, I wonder how much "science" has gone into the principle in general. Or is it something that's being encouraged "just to be on the safe side"?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't get people walking up to restaurants (other than things like station Nandos, which are more posh fast food than restaurant), if the restaurant is any good you have almost no chance of a table. I'd mostly in normal times ring and book, even if that's an hour beforehand or just to make sure there's a table before leaving.

Erm… Really? I could give you a long, long list of very good restaurants where you can just walk up, ask for a table & eat. Maybe at certain times you might risk getting turned away, but we manage to do this all the time when out and about.

 

[Bikeman78]

An additional problem with pubs is that some people pop in for a swift half, some for a session, some for a drink followed by a meal followed by a coffee. So, I book a table for 7pm. Do I have to choose a departure time? What happens if I want to stay a little longer? What happens if my meal takes a little longer than expected to arrive? Do I get chucked out half way through my rump steak? Who makes sure I leave on time? How do they do so? Pubs are not restaurants. Since some countries are using 1m for social distancing, some 1.5m, some 2m, I wonder how much "science" has gone into the principle in general. Or is it something that's being encouraged "just to be on the safe side"?

One can only assume that all major sporting events are off until further notice. If fans have to book their trains then they'll try to fill the pubs while they wait before or after the match. Alternatively if they all try to drive then there will be huge queues to get into the nearby car parks after the match. I've seen the aftermath of events at the Millennium stadium.

Same goes for events at the Motorpoint Arena. Normally a queue to get in, queue for the bars, queues for the toilets at the interval and then a scrum to get out. Even if you cut the audience to 50% the above would still apply.

 

[Huntergreed]

Scottish Government released their exit strategy today. Note that Phase 4, which is likely the phase that once this calms down we'll be facing for a longer term until a vaccine, mentions the following:

Public transport would be operating a full service and capacity. Physical distancing may remain in place, subject to scientific advice.

It sounds like they're considering, in Scotland anyway, getting rid of social distancing on trains whatsoever if possible.

Shopping, eating out and drinking: All types of outlets would be open in line with public health advice. Shop local could still be encouraged.

Doesn't give much detail, it's unclear whether social distancing or reservations would be imposed in these types of place.

Sport, culture and leisure: There would be a further relaxation of restrictions on live events in line with public health advice.

It certainly sounds as if they're hopeful that once things die down we can really ease the level of restrictions from the ones which we're currently facing.

Phase 3, which comes before this and is when the virus is getting suppressed well and the track and trace system is beginning to prove effective, mentions:

Getting around: In Phase 2, consistent with the reopening of workplaces set out in this phase, it is our plan that the default position is for people to work from home where possible. Where that is not possible, businesses and organisations are encouraged to manage travel demand through staggered start times and flexible working patterns

Work from Home is still going to be emphasised for a good while yet. It doesn't mention any restriction on leisure travel on public transport, perhaps through compulsory reservations this may be permitted by this point?

Shopping, eating out and drinking: We expect that previously closed small retail units will be allowed to re-open with physical distancing in place. We are also planning on opening outdoor markets with physical distancing, hygiene measures and controls on numbers of people.

Capacity will be limited and social distancing and hygiene measures still very much enforced, perhaps this may suggest that reservations may be compulsory during this phase? This isn't clear.

Sport, culture and leisure activities: In Phase 2, we are planning a reopening of playgrounds and sports courts with physical distancing, and a resumption of professional sport in line with public health advice.

Sports centres will be reopened, perhaps with compulsory reservations? The detail in this isn't clear.

Whilst it's definitely not clear exactly what measures are likely to remain/be in place for these types of services, this certainly gives us a starting point to understanding how the government are going to approach the reopening of these industries, in Scotland and, likely, the rest of the UK.

 

[Carlisle]

Scottish Government released their exit strategy today. .

Whilst Scotland seem to have the right approach on certain aspects af leaving lockdown like not obsessing over completing their football season etc, they’ve yet to set a potential date for being able to take day trips for exercise let alone visit a pub or theatre

 

[leightonbd]

Whilst Scotland seem to have the right approach on certain aspects af leaving lockdown like not obsessing over completing their football season etc, they’ve yet to set a potential date for being able to take day trips for exercise let alone visit a pub or theatre

Yes, my take on this was a clear messsage of ‘don’t expect too much easing up too soon’. The path also comes over as rather wishful. Phase 1 next week does not amount to much, and phase 2 is described as ‘virus controlled’ - who’s controlling it? The only current controls are in people’s behaviour. So timings not at all clear; which is disappointing but a fair reflection of the very limited progress to date with testing, tracking and isolating cases which would otherwise have remained undetected.

So not great for leisure in Scotland at all, though I can see ‘school holidays’ (start of July) leading to pressure from leisure businesses and also punters saying ‘why can’t I go to a caravan park in the Cairngorms’? People seem already to be voting with their feet, a little early IMO, on leisure travel and socialising more generally - admittedly that’s mostly personal observation but that is how it seems.