Identity Cards

[cactustwirly]

But what if you don't go on holiday abroad and don't drive?

There should be three types of "acceptable" identification:
1) Passport
2) Driving Licence
3) ID Card

You must have at least one of those when you turn 16 (?) and if unable to produce it immediately, have 7 days in which to do so at a local police station.

If you have one, there's no need for the others, but if you have more than one, that's great.
Price for the ID card should be set in the middle between the Driving Licence and Passport OR make the passport / driving licence / id card all cost the same.

Why should you have to produce it?
You have no legal obligation to do so, unless you've been stopped by the police and you're driving a car or you've committed an offence.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Don't you mean a P60 @Arctic Troll (rather than a P45)?

Them too. I don't get sacked that often

Remember, you're just one of millions of people. No data inputter is going to be bothered about YOU specifically.

I think that is rather naive, to be quite honest. I think the Cambridge Analytica scandal has shown that these organisations are interested the in micro-targeting of individuals. Facebook's advertising is micro-targeted, including the use of "dark" adverts that will only show to very tightly defined demographics. They do, very much, care about individuals.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm pretty sure you can get an ID if you can't get a provisional driving licence.

Yes a passport. Which is expensive and a massive pain to carry.

Voluntary ID cards are already available for those that want ID so not really sure what the issues are and I don’t see why they should be compulsory.

The only other ID cards you can get are the "Pass" scheme ones which many places do not accepted (despite claiming they do) - and good luck opening a bank account etc with one. Most places ask for a driving licence or a passport at the moment.

 

[transmanche]

You must have at least one of those when you turn 16 (?) and if unable to produce it immediately, have 7 days in which to do so at a local police station.

Why?


.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes a passport. Which is expensive and a massive pain to carry.

No I've seen an actual photo ID card, I can't remember what it's called

 

[Domh245]

One of those PASS accredited ones I linked to earlier?

CitizenCard
ValidateUK

I think there are others as well

 

[cactustwirly]

One of those PASS accredited ones I linked to earlier?

CitizenCard
ValidateUK

I think there are others as well

Yes, I believe it was a Citizen card

 

[WelshBluebird]

One of those PASS accredited ones I linked to earlier?

CitizenCard
ValidateUK

I think there are others as well

Yes, I believe it was a Citizen card

Ahh the ones that nobody accepts then. Really useful!

 

[AlterEgo]

Why should you have to produce it?
You have no legal obligation to do so, unless you've been stopped by the police and you're driving a car or you've committed an offence.

In some western countries, ID is a requirement and nobody would consider those to be totalitarian states.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both Google and Apple retreive data about your location from your phone to create information on traffic conditions and thus potentially warn you / redirect you if using a maps app. It woudn't work half as well if everyone turned their location/data completely off.
Does Google care about YOU? No. They just want the collective data.

They want both - personal data to target advertising.

 

[najaB]

Probably none. But a passport/driving licence are documents with specific purposes which happen to be useful as forms of ID.

But not everyone has both/either of them.

 

[Warwick]

If you're a legal resident of this country you already have an identity card. It's your NHS card. It has a unique identifying number. All that needs to be done is to issue them with a photo of passport size and quality to-gether with a chip and machine readable code as in the latest passport issue.
No-one in France has a problem with a carte national d'indentite.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

....Although, I must admit, I struggle to understand why someone supposedly living here for 40 years + can’t provide evidence of tax/NI etc. on U.K. earnings, or at least some documentary evidence of their residency in this country over several decades).

It's not that someone can't provide paperwork but how do they prove that the paperwork is theirs? Someone could know that Mr A Windrush worked for LT for 40 years, easily find his address, NI number etc but having all that paperwork means nothing. None of it has a photograph on it to prove that the person stood in front of you is the person named on the paperwork!

Ultimately you cannot really prove who you are with any kind of document, only that you are carrying something which suggest that you are who it says you are and that the person reviewing it has sufficient confidence in it to let you through.

I always carry ID around with me - fingerprints and DNA! Perhaps I could be chipped / bar-coded as well and scan myself as I pass every lamp-post!

I would not want to be in a situation where I commit a criminal act simply by forgetting to carry something in my pocket. For example, I'm running low on milk, it's a five minute walk each way to the shop, I pick up a £1 coin off the mantelpiece but don't bother with my wallet which has my ID in it, or I take off my jacket at the last minute with my ID in its pocket etc. Better still, it's hot, there is a piece of public open space in front of my house (think Albert Square), I want to go and sit and enjoy the sun. Do I really have to take ID with me?

I don't understand this issue people seem to have with opening bank accounts. I do it regularly, on-line, and no issues have ever arisen, no paperwork required.

I do have concerns about a voluntary scheme becoming compulsory by default eg having to have ID to buy alcohol, visit a cinema, buy train tickets, stay at a hotel etc.

Countries with compulsory ID, do they have lower levels of terrorist activity, or crime generally?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If you're a legal resident of this country you already have an identity card. It's your NHS card. It has a unique identifying number. All that needs to be done is to issue them with a photo of passport size and quality to-gether with a chip and machine readable code as in the latest passport issue.
No-one in France has a problem with a carte national d'indentite.

But the process of obtaining the photo, proving it actually is you, is the stumbling block. Requiring infrastructure in terms of offices close enough to peoples homes that they can reasonably get to one, at reasonable expense, with their witnesses etc. As with the last proposed ID scheme.

My NHS card came through the post at some point, can't remember when or where or what checks there might have been that I still lived at that address. Perhaps there are several other versions sent to my numerous previous addresses that I don't know about and other people are getting free NHS treatment with it as I speak!

 

[whhistle]

Why should you have to produce it?
You have no legal obligation to do so, unless you've been stopped by the police and you're driving a car or you've committed an offence.

And it's those reasons people would be asked to produce it.
As others have said, maybe when opening a bank account or claiming for a parcel perhaps.

Why?

Because 7 days is reasonable?
Isn't that what you get for a police producer anyway?

Remember what the thread is about:
One guy used someone elses details and the other person was then the target.
If the original person was asked for some sort of photo ID to prove they were telling the truth, surely that isn't a problem?

I've had people tell me they "swear on their life" then turns out they were lying. People will lie and say anything these days, hence my general grumpiness; I assume most people tell lies, whether big or small. Society in general have less morals these days and WILL lie to get what they want. Swearing on someone, something has no consequences if you're not telling the truth so people seem to think they're free to say it and it means they're telling the truth.

I think that is rather naive, to be quite honest. I think the Cambridge Analytica scandal has shown that these organisations are interested the in micro-targeting of individuals. Facebook's advertising is micro-targeted. They do, very much, care about individuals.

Perhaps so... but you and how many others? It's just their computer system tracks you, it's not like it's an individual person gleaning all the information they can about you.

That's why I disallow websites to see my "advertising ID" where possible and prefer to turn targeted ads off.

You'll never get rid of ads, so I'd prefer to see one that has no relevance to me whatsoever so I can make a quicker decision on whether it's something I may be interested in. It'll only be a second or so compared with one that was aimed at me. But I don't think much adversiting has any effect on me.

I was looking at sofas yesterday. Lo and behold logging on to Facebook, I see adverts for DFS. As the primary model for Facebook is to sell stats and data to advertisers rather than being a social network, that's to be expected.

 

[NSEFAN]

You'll never get rid of ads, so I'd prefer to see one that has no relevance to me whatsoever so I can make a quicker decision on whether it's something I may be interested in. It'll only be a second or so compared with one that was aimed at me. But I don't think much adversiting has any effect on me.

I was looking at sofas yesterday. Lo and behold logging on to Facebook, I see adverts for DFS. As the primary model for Facebook is to sell stats and data to advertisers rather than being a social network, that's to be expected.

Advertising is quite subtle in many ways, relying on the fact that people aren't rational, even if they think they're being so. The power of suggestion can be enough to swing people to making decisions that they otherswise wouldn't. Even being aware of the psychology behind the advertising doesn't stop them affecting you. I generally only allow adverts for sites like this one, where I know they will be vetted reasonably well. Facebook etc. just make their site completely unusable without some form of adblocking, and will gladly collect whatever data they like in order to make advertising more effective. In the case of Cambridge Analytica, the data gathered wasn't even with the consent of those who were harvested, and their data was then sold to the Republican party for targeted political advertising. That kind of thing definitely makes me uncomfortable, and I would object to a national ID system being similarly harvested in this way.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perhaps so... but you and how many others? It's just their computer system tracks you, it's not like it's an individual person gleaning all the information they can about you.

That's why I disallow websites to see my "advertising ID" where possible and prefer to turn targeted ads off.

Turning personalised adverts off doesn't change anything. Facebook will use your personal data to define you into a demographic, and some of these demographics are very niche indeed. Advertisers will tell them which demographics they want to target, and so the adverts you see will be based on the demographics Facebook think you belong to. If you ever look on Facebook where it says "why am I seeing this ad?", it is very illuminating.

All personalised advertising does is give the illusion of control and choice.

As I said, I think you're being naive if you think that these media companies are not interested in individuals. They are, very much so. That's not to say they give the tiniest stuff about me as a person. But their advertising model is based on micro-targeting not macro-targeting. I may be one of 100,000, but they're interested in my individual behaviour so they can file me in the box that will generate the most income for them.

 

[HSTEd]

If you're a legal resident of this country you already have an identity card. It's your NHS card. It has a unique identifying number. All that needs to be done is to issue them with a photo of passport size and quality to-gether with a chip and machine readable code as in the latest passport issue.

What's an NHS card?
I have never seen one, nor been issued one.

I have no idea what my NHS number is and have never been required to present it to anyone.

No-one in France has a problem with a carte national d'indentite.

I seem to recall parts of Paris being on fire not so long ago because of heavy handed police reaction to youths caught without identity documents.

There is no reason for the state to levy a poll tax to issue a document that you will be required to carried at all times for no other reason than because the state commands it.

Nor for the state to compel people to present documents on demand to prove that they are innocent and going about there business. Its the job of the accuser to prove their position, not for the defendent to prove that the accuser is wrong.

 

[Lucan]

Facebook will use your personal data to define you into a demographic, ... and so the adverts you see will be based on the demographics Facebook think you belong to.

I admit I once created a Facebook account to keep in touch with someone, but rarely log on. The data I gave Facebook, including my name, was completely fabricated, which is probably why I sometimes see adverts on other sites for "Laser treatment in Hatfield" when I live over 100 miles away and don't need laser treatment.

Advertising is quite subtle in many ways, relying on the fact that people aren't rational, even if they think they're being so. The power of suggestion can be enough to swing people to making decisions that they otherswise wouldn't.

You are right. Ads generally irrationally put me off what is advertised as I do not associate myself (or do not wish to) with the persona they usually portray, which is never anything like me and would be creepy if it was.

As another example I have one of those large UK road atlases and on the back cover, where I would want to find the overall small scale key map to find the page I want, is an ad for Karcher pressure washers. Because of this and certain other ads, I have to rummage to about Page 4 to find that key map, which is frustrating and time wasting. So, like one of Pavlov's dogs, the very sight of the name "Karcher" now makes me angry, and I would never ever buy their stuff. Irrational, I know.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So what information do you think an ID card would carry that a driving licence/passport doesn't?

NHS Number/entitlement, NI Number/benefit entitlement, bank account details.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NHS Number/entitlement, NI Number/benefit entitlement, bank account details.

Why on earth would you want *bank details* on it?

Does *any* country in the world with ID cards do that?

 

[cactustwirly]

NHS Number/entitlement, NI Number/benefit entitlement, bank account details.

Surely if you have a British ID, it would be very obvious that you're entitled to NHS healthcare.

And if you're going to the job centre/council for benefits you would take your NI number with you.

Bank account details is a stupid idea, what purpose does it serve, what if you have multiple bank accounts or change your bank account?
I don't want any Tom, Dick & Harry of the street, knowing my bank account details!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would support the introduction of a non-mandatory-to-carry ID card, used to combine functionality of passports, driving licences and other such official functions. It could even be used to confirm eligibility for benefits or NHS treatment, which I think would calm concerns about benefit tourism.

I quite like the Belgian system where the card is electronic, so you can even use it as part of online identity checking for management of these services, using a provided USB reader. By making a card like this which is convenient, I think most people would gladly have it.

I wouldn't. Once it was there, it would only take one vote in parliament to make carrying it compulsory.

The UK is a permissive society. I'd rather keep it so.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Surely if you have a British ID, it would be very obvious that you're entitled to NHS healthcare.

And if you're going to the job centre/council for benefits you would take your NI number with you.

Bank account details is a stupid idea, what purpose does it serve, what if you have multiple bank accounts or change your bank account?
I don't want any Tom, Dick & Harry of the street, knowing my bank account details!

In the last scheme that was touted by the last Labour government, linking bank details was floated. I agree with you it's stupid, but it was thought about!

I personally don't want people having their ID checked in an ambulance to start a billing process for care.

I also wouldn't want my NI number or tax details linked to the card.

Putting too much information on one database is risky. Should said database get hacked (as it inevitably will - Government IT security is notoriously crap - think about the ransomware that affected the NHS a couple of years ago) then there will be a lot of information about people that can be harvested.

 

[NSEFAN]

I wouldn't. Once it was there, it would only take one vote in parliament to make carrying it compulsory.

The UK is a permissive society. I'd rather keep it so.

It's not currently compulsory to carry a form of ID right now. Why would standardising a passport, driver's licence, NI card etc into a single card make it more likely for parliament to make such a thing compulsory to carry at all times?

 

[whhistle]

Facebook will use your personal data to define you into a demographic, and some of these demographics are very niche indeed.

As I said, I think you're being naive if you think that these media companies are not interested in individuals. They are, very much so.

But you're saying [Facebook] are interested in groups AND individuals, as highlighted in the two sections above :P It sort of is both but less of the individual like you suggest.

Yes, I agree, Facebook are interested in me as an individual to an extent, but not really as an absolute individual. They don't care that John Smith lives where he does and is in a group for nascar racing, except for the possibility of serving an ad about nascar racing.
They will add John Smith, automatically, to a group of people who live where they do, and perhaps another group of people who like nascar racing, maybe even both.

People seem to suggest in the way they write/say things like this, that Facebook employs individuals to spy on general every day people. There's too many users for that. But why so secretive about it? I don't mind Facebook knowing my interests; I get more out of Facebook than it does out of me, that I'm aware of.

In addition, if I turn personalised ads off where I can, my brain can make a quicker decision whether an ad is for me or not. If I have been looking at sofas and see an ad for a sofa, I might stop for an extra second to look at it. If it serves me an ad about holidays in Scotland, my mind knows it's totally irrelevant so can move on.

I should also add that I use ad blocking when browsing so don't see many ads at all.

I started a petition once to "stop the sale or gifting of customer details from one company to another" or words to that effect. Did it get many signatures? No. I guess because "people" (in the collective sense) simply don't care that much about their data these days.

and I would object to a national ID system being similarly harvested in this way.

We already have many of those though.
The police, government (IE, passports), DVLA, councils, NHS, hell even my local garage has data on me and my vehicle on their database.
I suspect if some sort of national ID system was brought in, the data won't be sold to other companies. Why would that even cross someone's mind? I don't think the Government or NHS sell data, for former not giving me a tick box asking if they could like many other websites.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ad-blockers for the most part only stop you seeing the ads... while you browse in uncommercialised bliss, data is still being harvested about which sites you frequent. Disable your ad-blocker for a bit and see what adverts you see...

The worrying thing is when you see an advert for (for example) a business in Walsall* when you haven't ever mentioned Walsall online, but happened to mention the football team in a real-life conversation!

*=this really happened, though the location has been changed.

 

[HSTEd]

Why on earth would you want *bank details* on it?

Does *any* country in the world with ID cards do that?

Various totalitarian states are attempting to force adoption of ID cards as bank cards, so that the state can gain immediate access to all transaction information.

 

[SS4]

I'm firmly in the optional camp here. It would be nice to have as an alternative to both a passport (bulky!) and a driving licence (expensive and not available for everyone). However, for it to be any use it must be accepted by establishments in the same way that a passport is - this is the issue with citizen cards and their ilk.

On the negative side I am concerned about data security - currently a lot of details are held in discrete systems but an ID database would be in one place and an easy target for cybercriminals. May has already shown herself to be outdated and incompetent when it comes to technology with the Snooper's Charter.

Having it be optional and produced on demand sounds like something that would happen under some far-right dictatorship or at least under special circumstances (eg total war)

 

[najaB]

If you're born in the UK to British parents, you're fine. Easy enough to prove

If you don't have your birth certificate it would be hard to prove, and a birth certificate isn't any use to prove that you're the person to which it relates.